A Thousand Words  wrote:
Serious question here. If you hate this country so badly, why not leave for one more to your liking? You have the freedom to do that. You also have the freedom to stay here and bitch. Your choice. But If I were living in a country I HATED, I would save every penny and be on the next plane out.

Just to clarify, I'm not being confrontational. I really would like to know your thinking.

Do you all not consider that people have CHILDREN they can't just leave behind? It's also really not that easy to just move to another country, like you know this right? People who flee their country of origin almost always do so because of war or their parents are well off and can send them. My son is mentally challenged. My family and his father's family work our asses off to help ensure he might one day be independent. Life isn't that fucking simple.

I've never once had patriotism or pride for this ridiculous country and I never will. I recently dated a French professor and I realized that my views are SO much more in line with France and other European countries. It was an interesting realization. There's so much about this country I oppose. I have a LAUNDRY list. People are constantly shocked I don't love it here and my seething hate/lack of respect for the military. It's not an "American" way to feel. I have every damn right to feel the way I do. The reason I came to this conclusion is because I bothered to critically think.

Black Z Eddie wrote:

Great news!  DITTO!  I can't stand people who have made bad choices in their lives and want to blame an entire country for it.

Who the hell made bad choices? Are you really that simple? I don't blame the country for my life, I actually see through its bullshit unlike you. You keep thinking this is the best country in the world in your deluded bubble. You just keep doing that.

Model Sarah wrote:
I recently dated a French professor and I realized that my views are SO much more in line with France and other European countries.

Love to know what your French professor thought of our “fucking military” in World War ll. I assume he thanks them everyday for his freedom, yes? Or perhaps he was more of a collaborationist kinda guy?

Model Sarah wrote:
Do you all not consider that people have CHILDREN they can't just leave behind? It's also really not that easy to just move to another country, like you know this right? People who flee their country of origin almost always do so because of war or their parents are well off and can send them. My son is mentally challenged. My family and his father's family work our asses off to help ensure he might one day be independent. Life isn't that fucking simple.

I've never once had patriotism or pride for this ridiculous country and I never will. I recently dated a French professor and I realized that my views are SO much more in line with France and other European countries. It was an interesting realization. There's so much about this country I oppose. I have a LAUNDRY list. People are constantly shocked I don't love it here and my seething hate/lack of respect for the military. It's not an "American" way to feel. I have every damn right to feel the way I do. The reason I came to this conclusion is because I bothered to critically think.

I think you could probably arrange to take your children with you if you set your mind to it.  I disagree with your assessment that there are only two reasons to move to another country, wealth or war.  Certainly people migrate to this country without either reason being a factor.  They come for a better life.  Sometimes the kids come later.  Sometimes they bring them with them.  Sometime, leaving your children so you can provide a better life for them is what you have to do.

An engineer I know had considered moving to Europe.  Switzerland in particular.  He has two children adopted from Russia.  He investigated the possibilities and when he finished researching, he decided that he was better off here.  But if you hate this country so much, then France might be a better alternative for you.  Why stay here with such "seething hate" and anger?  Surely you can make a living there and your child's father and family can send money over to help.

I don't really see you as any different than the people that you rail against.  Except that you are at opposite ends of the gamut.  Those that remorselessly defend the country without looking at the faults are the same as those that viciously detract with out looking at the positives.  Neither group seems to care much about anyone else.  Like you said, life isn't that simple.  Neither is being a citizen of a very large and diverse country.  It might be easier for you to live where your ideas align better with other people, rather than have reasoned discussions or being active in changing the country.

howard r wrote:

Love to know what your French professor thought of our “fucking military” in World War ll. I assume he thanks them everyday for his freedom, yes? Or perhaps he was more of a collaborationist kinda guy?

He agreed with me. You clearly do not really know what happened in WW2. I feel sorry for people that join the military. Those people assume they get automatic respect for what? Being hired killers?

howard r wrote:

Love to know what your French professor thought of our “fucking military” in World War ll. I assume he thanks them everyday for his freedom, yes? Or perhaps he was more of a collaborationist kinda guy?

He agreed with me. You clearly do not really know what happened in WW2. I feel sorry for people that join the military. Those people assume they get automatic respect for what? Being hired killers?

howard r wrote:

Love to know what your French professor thought of our “fucking military” in World War ll. I assume he thanks them everyday for his freedom, yes? Or perhaps he was more of a collaborationist kinda guy?

Or WW1.  Didn't they fight in Vietnam before us?  And part of Africa was colonized by them and they go back once in a while militarily.

http://www.businessinsider.com/frances- … ica-2015-1
France "has one of the most forward-deployed militaries in the world."

Model Sarah wrote:
He agreed with me. You clearly do not really know what happened in WW2. I feel sorry for people that join the military. Those people assume they get automatic respect for what? Being hired killers?

Please feel free to enlighten us about what happened in WW2.

I had an uncle who was wounded in the bulge.  I know a guy, still living, that was in Bastogne.  I know he saw men get killed.  I doubt that his people or the French saw them as hired killers.

Hunter  GWPB wrote:
I think you could probably arrange to take your children with you if you set your mind to it.  I disagree with your assessment that there are only two reasons to move to another country, wealth or war.  Certainly people migrate to this country without either reason being a factor.  They come for a better life.  Sometimes the kids come later.  Sometimes they bring them with them.  Sometime, leaving your children so you can provide a better life for them is what you have to do.

An engineer I know had considered moving to Europe.  Switzerland in particular.  He has two children adopted from Russia.  He investigated the possibilities and when he finished researching, he decided that he was better off here.  But if you hate this country so much, then France might be a better alternative for you.  Why stay here with such seething anger?  Surely you can make a living there and your child's father and family can send money over to help.

I don't really see you as any different than the people that you rail against.  Except that you are at opposite ends of the gamut.  Those that remorselessly defend the country without looking at the faults are the same as those that viciously detract with out looking at the positives.  Neither group seems to care much about anyone else.  Like you said, life isn't that simple.  Neither is being a citizen of a very large and diverse country.  It might be easier for you to live where your ideas align better with other people, rather than have reasoned discussions or being active in changing the country.

I can't move my child with me. I have what is called a custody agreement with his father. I'd never leave my child, he's my world. You are speaking on this as though it is black and white and it is ridiculous.

You don't see someone who critically thinks as being different than someone who openly shuts their eyes and ears?

I really wish people would stop linking me to this forum. It's only full of old hobbyist photographers who live in a box and think they know what they speak on is an absolute truth. I'm so done with this place. There's a reason no one contributes any longer.

Model Sarah wrote:
I can't move my child with me. I have what is called a custody agreement with his father. I'd never leave my child, he's my world. You are speaking on this as though it is black and white and it is ridiculous.

You don't see someone who critically thinks as being different than someone who openly shuts their eyes and ears?

I really wish people would stop linking me to this forum. It's only full of old hobbyist photographers who live in a box and think they know what they speak on is an absolute truth. I'm so done with this place. There's a reason no one contributes any longer.

You didn't show me critical thinking.  You showed me a rant and belittled people that disagreed with you. ("I hate this country. It's never been and never will be great. It's a delusion.")  ("I've never once had patriotism or pride for this ridiculous country and I never will.")  ("Yes! It's JUST that simple! God I can't stand people like you. You're what's wrong with this stupid ass country.")  How are your eyes open? 

Is it critical thinking for you to describe me in a group as you did in the last paragraph?  This is the second recent forum where you railed against the angry old men here.  So, you are age prejudiced?  Why do you feel like your eyes and ears are open but other people's are not?  Because they didn't come to the same conclusion as you? 

Custody arrangements can be modified.  Maybe your ex would go too.  Is that to simple?  You blame me for not giving us more information?  And I certainly didn't speak like it was black and white.  I gave options.

"There's a reason no one contributes any longer."  Yes, and that could be because of your representative attitude that we need to agree or be called angry old men who live in a box ....

Model Sarah wrote:
Yes! It's JUST that simple! God I can't stand people like you. You're what's wrong with this stupid ass country.

If any of the conservative thinking people here had posted this collection of rants, the Mods would have brigged them immediately, and probably locked the thread.,

Yes Sarah, you have every right to say any damn thing you want. People who you have no respect for made sacrifices you obviously dont understand just so you WOULD have that freedom. You can call me any names you choose, you can say I am one of the people who made the country shitty---- and you are welcome to your opinion. Pardon me if I dont think your opinion means diddly shit.

I dont personally think your world view from Colombus Ohio is all that well informed. That's my opinion. Oh- I have every right to that opinion too.... works that way Sarah.

Oh, and your French professor---would probably be a German professor without the intervention of people you have no respect or understanding of... YOU are the one who fails the history lessons Sarah.

Model Sarah wrote:
I've never once had patriotism or pride for this ridiculous country and I never will.

Sarah, i’m in my studio right now giving you an 80s style standing slow clap

Model Sarah wrote:
He agreed with me. You clearly do not really know what happened in WW2. I feel sorry for people that join the military. Those people assume they get automatic respect for what? Being hired killers?

Too bad it didn't work out. He sounds like a keeper.

aPeaceOfAdam wrote:

Sarah, i’m in my studio right now giving you an 80s style standing slow clap

Clearly I shouldn’t be surprised you found a kindred spirit in someone who views the American soldiers who fought Hitler with nothing but contempt.

My best friend’s mom was liberated from a concentration camp at the end of the war. My guess is that she would have a very different opinion. (Or are you a Holocaust denier as well?)

aPeaceOfAdam wrote:
Yes “crx studios” - I expressed an opinion different to yours in an Internet forum so obviously I’m a secret nazi that wanted all the Jews to die

Glad to hear you are not a Holocaust denier. So tell me, how were the Jews going be saved if not for the American soldiers who gave their lives to defeat the Nazis? You seemed to embrace Model Sarah’s absolute contempt for them so naturally I'm curious.

crx studios wrote:

Glad to hear you are not a Holocaust denier. So tell me, how were the Jews going be saved if not for the American soldiers who gave their lives to defeat the Nazis? You seemed to embrace Model Sarah’s absolute contempt for them so naturally I'm curious.

hmmm.

Given the central place of IBM in facilitating the holocaust via the suppy of computing equipment and the delayed entry to WW2 until Hitler declared war on the US I'm not sure that's a conversation you want to have.

Virtual Studio wrote:

The wars with Mexico where California, Arizona, New Mexco were taken.

The hostile conquest of Hawaii.

Conquest and occupation of the Philippines.

Just a side note, not that anyone was paying attention when i mentioned mark twain, but the passage I referenced was taken from a letter he wrote during the phillipine war to protest the horrific slaughter that was happening.  I referenced it as a time when america was great, not because there wasn't fucked up shit happening by the actions of our country but because of the prominent figures with high values that knew it was their responsibility to stand openly against it.

In his words:
"For in a republic, who is "the Country"? Is it the Government which is for the moment in the saddle? Why, the Government is merely a servant--merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them. Who, then, is "the Country"? Is it the newspaper? is it the pulpit? is it the school superintendent? Why, these are mere parts of the country, not the whole of it; they have not command, they have only their little share in the command. They are but one in the thousand; it is in the thousand that command is lodged; they must determine what is right and what is wrong; they must decide who is a patriot and who isn't."

Despite the atrocities being committed by the government at the time, there was a recognition that what it means to be an american is to stand united against any action taken by a government that does not represent you or what what you know to be right.

"Each must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, and which course is patriotic and which isn't. You cannot shirk this and be a man. To decide it against your convictions is to be an unqualified and inexcusable traitor, both to yourself and to your country, let men label you as they may. If you alone of all the nation shall decide one way, and that way be the right way according to your convictions of the right, you have done your duty by yourself and by your country--hold up your head! You have nothing to be ashamed of."

One of my favorite lines that represents the core of the now dead american values. In his eyes, it was not just a right to express your free speech even in the face of intimidation or public castigation, it was your responsibility as an american. Nowadays, cowards sit idly by and think, i have no control over my government, it does not represent me anymore, what can i do? This. You can do this.

"I pray you to pause and consider. Against our traditions we are now entering upon an unjust and trivial war, a war against a helpless people, and for a base object--robbery. At first our citizens spoke out against this thing, by an impulse natural to their training. Today they have turned, and their voice is the other way. What caused the change? Merely a politician's trick--a high-sounding phrase, a blood-stirring phrase which turned their uncritical heads: Our Country, right or wrong! An empty phrase, a silly phrase. It was shouted by every newspaper, it was thundered from the pulpit, the Superintendent of Public Instruction placarded it in every schoolhouse in the land, the War Department inscribed it upon the flag. And every man who failed to shout it or who was silent, was proclaimed a traitor--none but those others were patriots. To be a patriot, one had to say, and keep on saying, "Our Country, right or wrong," and urge on the little war. Have you not perceived that that phrase is an insult to the nation?"

Proof that since the very beginning, there has been propaganda. Since the very beginning, there have been demagogues, attempting to use crowd psychology to delude people into signing on to pointless causes. The difference between todays america, and Twain's america, is that in that time, people were actually TRAINED to think better and believe in moral causes, and it actually took effort to deter them from that. And when people like questioned it, they were not simply passive and nihilist about it, eager to watch their country burn rather than save it--they were outright enraged by the insult it meant to their country.

"Only when a republic's life is in danger should a man uphold his government when it is in the wrong. There is no other time."
America was great when it realized this simple fact. But even now, democrats throw impeachment under the rug because they are worried about reelection, a psychopath like trump gets elected because of republican party loyalty, when it could have just as easily been hillary because of party loyalty. Hundreds of millions of voters not only upheld their country when they knew it was in the wrong, but upheld candidates they did not believe in for the sake of a political party that was in the wrong to nominate them, and threw their country under the bus to do it.

"This Republic's life is not in peril. The nation has sold its honor for a phrase. It has swung itself loose from its safe anchorage and is drifting, its helm is in pirate hands."
This isn't the first time this has happened. The difference was, when america was great, the true americans stormed the fucking ship and took it back. Where is that courage now?

Model Sarah wrote:
When capitalism dies. Corporations are ruling this country and Republicans "believe" in the trickle down system (which has never and will never work). Basically when the minimum wage rises to $25/hr+ (to keep up with inflation) and healthcare is affordable/free along with education it will start to get better. But why would corporations do that when they don't have to and get tax breaks for being wealthy? GREAT IDEA!

Also, maybe when we actually hold the fucking police accountable for killing innocent black men and women. Maybe not throwing so much tax dollars at the fucking military so we can poke our stupid noses in shit that isn't our concern for $$.

Sarah, health care is never free. It costs 'someone'.

Model Sarah wrote:
I feel sorry for people that join the military. Those people assume they get automatic respect for what? Being hired killers?

WW1 and WW2 more often that not they were cannon fodder.

Natural Means wrote:

Sarah, health care is never free. It costs 'someone'.

She meant free at the point of delivery. Like in the UK or Canada.

But you knew that and were trying to make some point.

Black Z Eddie wrote:
Has anybody heard of the saying "The Australian Dream"?  Or, "The Canadian Dream"?  Yeah, me neither.

Yep. Heard of the saying "The Australian Dream" (naturally, as an Australian)
I've heard of the American Dream too.
I'm sure Canadians will also have a Canadian Dream.

All three may have a mixture of different ideals, on a national or individual basis.
But they do exist.

howard r wrote:

Love to know what your French professor thought of our “fucking military” in World War ll. I assume he thanks them everyday for his freedom, yes? Or perhaps he was more of a collaborationist kinda guy?

Being born in Paris in 1943 I will never be able to thanks enough the allies for their sacrifices. Or I will have been educated in a communist culture....But yet why did the US got involved in Korea, Viet-Nam, Middle East as well, all of them disasters?
I went to Viet-Nam twice as a tourist.....And felt that almost 50.000 US dead and who knows how many Vietnamese dead
was a obscene waste of life and money except for Monsanto and the like. The Vietnamese are doing fine except they don't have many senior citizen.....

IMAGINERIES wrote:
Being born in Paris in 1943 I will never be able to thanks enough the allies for their sacrifices. Or I will have been educated in a communist culture....But yet why did the US got involved in Korea, Viet-Nam, Middle East as well, all of them disasters?
I went to Viet-Nam twice as a tourist.....And felt that almost 50.000 US dead and who knows how many Vietnamese dead
was a obscene waste of life and money except for Monsanto and the like. The Vietnamese are doing fine except they don't have many senior citizen.....

(Why do you say you would have been educated in a communist culture as opposed to a fascist culture?)

Why?  To contain communism or despots?  To protect national interests?  Certainly you can look on line to see the discussions and motivations to enter those wars.  The politics for staying in and withdrawing.  The good, the bad, the ugly is mostly available to anyone in the world.  The US courts ruled that the Pentagon Papers could be published.  Which, as Zack pointed out, is a freedom that not many countries enjoy.  (It was a crime to insult the President of France till a few years ago.  Germany still enforces it's version of that.  How is that freedom?)  And one cannot understand why the US was in Vietnam without first understanding why France was. 

Someone asked what would have happened to the Jewish population of Europe if the US hadn't entered into the war.  It just wasn't the Jewish population that was being exterminated though, was it?  I have written a reply to some of those queries.  I may post them yet.  In a nut shell, the world would be a very different place. 

You ask why we were involved in those two wars, the Korean and Vietnam, and you could ask about several other conflicts- every conflict.   What the world would look now would be a manner of conjecture.  Nobody knows really.  We could have a lively debate about it but everyone's answer would be relative to criteria in which they set.  The criteria themselves would be arguable.  The same issue applies to the results as we see them now.  The results are influenced by the prism we use.

My answer to your question is: (Just taking the one because the questions can be asked about them all- not only those that we got involved in but those we chose not to get involved in) What would the world look like now if the US did not intervene in Korea?  Would South Korea be an economic powerhouse?  Would North Korea still have nukes?  Would the peninsula be one country?  Would the communist have invaded other nations knowing that the rest of the world did not have the fortitude to stand in their path?  And back to your continent- IF (BIG IF) the Russians had defeated Germany, would they have stopped there or would they have taken France, Belgium, etc.?  Considering they were occupied, those countries still would have represented the enemy. No?

My contention would be, if the US did not get involved in WW2, you probably would have been killed a long time ago.  I can't prove that, but I have no reason to believe that it would not have been a reasonable possibility given the time and location of your birth.  For the US to have not been involved in WW2, the US would have had to not do anything to provoke the opposing powers.  That means no lend lease.  That means no interference in Japan's invasions or China, Korea and every where else.  Which means, there would have been no Korean/US war because they would be under Japanese rule.  England would be gone.  But I will leave that for the other piece I wrote, if I decide to post it.

My question, therefore, is how is it relevant to ask us about events that occurred before we were born and ask us to justify actions that occurred in a different climate of society?  Isn't a question like that just a ruse?

Any country has the potential to be great, at any point in time, but greatness depends on the arbitrary criteria of what is great and that criteria changes from generation to generation.  The criteria changes while viewing it in the days in which history was made compared to the view of history for the perspective of today or the future.  And the criteria changes based on the perspective of the people that hate the US and will always hate the US, compared to those that love the US and will always love it- and those in-between.

Not that it hasn't been an interesting discussion, but there is no answer to your original post that could be considered correct by consensus.  There is no gauge or standard other than that which is in each individual's heart.

Virtual Studio wrote:

She meant free at the point of delivery. Like in the UK or Canada.

But you knew that and were trying to make some point.

Your perspicacity is commendable. Yeah, my point is making it "free" just means someone else spends half a day a week less with their kids. People that think its free are self entitled leaches.

"subsidised by others" is more accurate.

Natural Means wrote:
Your perspicacity is commendable. Yeah, my point is making it "free" just means someone else spends half a day a week less with their kids. People that think its free are self entitled leaches.

"subsidised by others" is more accurate.

"Paid for by us all" is the real summary though.

From us all according to our means. To each of us according to our need.

Virtual Studio wrote:

"Paid for by us all" is the real summary though.

From us all according to our means. To each of us according to our need.

A great way to smash the energy out of all.

Natural Means wrote:

A great way to smash the energy out of all.

And then we get rejuvenated by nice free at the point of delivery health care....

billy badfinger wrote:
Just a quick note on the "Why don't you just move to a diff country?" comments:
Nearly every country in the world has immigration laws...one cannot simply pack-up and move to Norway,France,UK,Vietnam,Thailand,Panama or most anywhere else...
There are systems and rules and hoops to jump through.
So there is 1 "freedom" we don't enjoy...the ability to move freely to a country that suits our personal beliefs...Hmmmm!

its not about "simply" packing up and moving, and its not about the hoops one has to go thru to live in another country.
what I say is, the people living here who act as if its a nightmare to live in this country...arent going anywhere.
not due to the hassle of foreign immigration laws, but because they simply are just venting and dont have any real conviction about what they say about living here.  they arent going anywhere. they dont want to and even if given a free pass wouldn't go anywhere.because I dont believe their sincerity.

billy badfinger wrote:
And here's something really interesting:
Americans are NOT considered "desirable" immigrants in many countries...unless U have that fat bank account I mentioned:/
So there is 1 "freedom" we don't enjoy...the ability to move freely to a country that suits our personal beliefs...Hmmmm!

That's not specific to Americans. Most countries require that you have a job lined up, or if retiring that you have a pension or enough savings to be self-reliant. In Costa Rica for example, you need to show (pension, social security, etc.) $1K/month coming in, or have at least $60K in the bank. Alternatively, you can be an "investor" and own $200K or more in property (can be your own residence there). Its pretty much common sense that countries don't want people coming in who will wind up being a drain on the country's resources, or have criminal records, or other undesirable things about them.