IMAGINERIES wrote:
I would like to go back to the question "America was great ". I wish our present great leader could have pinpoint a period
so we would have a "period model" to aim for.....Pre second world war? Past? Korean war, Vietnam? Granada!
The longest peace period, and a color blind multiracial population...Simple no?

No.  Not at all. 

When was the longest peace period and why?  Was the country ignoring something it shouldn't have been?  Why is peace important?  Didn't many growing pains come from time of conflict?

When have we had our best color blind time?  Are you considering the immigration law changes of the Johnson administration?  How about when the British theory of Eugenics was brought here?

When did your criteria overlap? 

Why are those the only criteria?  Could you, should you consider the increases in standards of living and increases in life expectancy?  Should great achievements count?  We already know that some weigh the greatest shortcomings much heavier than anything else, and, as viewed from today rather than the times.  Is greatness measured on a scale against other nations or is it measured in a vacuum or a flood of political opinions?  How do you weight the significance of different things to others?  Does the comparison of our freedoms compared to other countries impact the decision?

To really get into this question, we have to discuss things that we have not been able to discuss since soapbox closed.  Even then, I am astounded that this thread is still open.  Unless we are going to get a reprieve from the rules, we cannot get into this.  As GK said ....  And once you bring in current politics, this is gone and the steel doors start slamming.

Why don't you answer your own question for us?  Instead of asking us to get brig time?  Why limit this to the States? When was France a great country?  And why?

GK photo wrote:
wow. when i read through this thread, especially in the context of my last brigging, i'm, flummoxed.

i guess oz is on vacation.

Or selectively decides who gets brigged by narrative

ZMPHOT   wrote:
ATW... I too enjoyed reading your declaration that Model Sarah deserves  no attacks because of her feelings. & the fact that she is "a thinking  person".   I too am a veteran  & had never desired to kill anyone when I was drafted  & was placed in The AMEDS of the US Army.  Where I worked with a small team that treated psychiatric battle casualties. in the  UN  Korean  Conflict. My background is very different from yours.  I  really have no political affiliations & regret that politics has become  what we see today and the underlying greed evidenced by so many of the participants..  Having lived in Europe,  mainly in France & England I feel that the French have a heritage that is so often misunderstood. The enlightenment that evolved in the mid 18th century was  so remarkable  For example the Baron D'Holbach ( a french/german) whose friends were  Among the regulars in attendance at  his salon—the coterie holbachique—were the following: Diderot, Grimm, Condillac, Condorcet, D'Alembert, Marmontel, Turgot, La Condamine, Raynal, Helvétius, Galiani, Morellet, Naigeon and, for a time, Jean-Jacques Rousseau.[ The salon was also visited by prominent British intellectuals, amongst them Adam Smith, David Hume, John Wilkes, Horace Walpole, Edward Gibbon, David Garrick, Laurence Sterne; Cesare Beccaria; and even Benjamin Franklin. This intellectual  group laid the groundwork for progressive thought. that even affects us today.   The french pride  & preoccupation with food, wine and the Arts should never be belittled. The shameful acts of the Vichy government  during WW2 was a black eye in the history of France.
But one important point missed by Model  Sarah....there is really no other country in the world with as much freedom as we have here in the US.  So many countries, some with oppressive governments deny their citizens the freedoms we have ..  Regarding your views on Health Care.  I cannot agree.with you.   Every really  democratic  country has a more liberal attitude about government participation with the health of its citizens eg  Denmark, Canada, Switzerland, Germany the NHS in Gt Britain etc.       A close family member had major surgery that cost  well over $1,000,000 with three hospital bills.not covered by insurance. No family should ever suffer this type of experience.

To Americans, the French come across as arrogant and cold. But with the long history that the French have, maybe they've earned that right. I dunno.

I feel that healthcare shouldn't be paid for or subsidized by ANY government. What if I am very healthy all my life and have minimal trips to the doctor. Why should I be taxed to provide healthcare for people who go to the emergency room for a hangnail? I feel that if the founders had wanted THAT much government intrusion into our lives, they would have provided for it in the Constitution. And I refuse to compare our situation in America with that of Europe. they have a different culture, morals, and governments than we have here. I'm reminded of a scene in the movie 1776 (one of my favorites) where Ben Franklin is speaking to John Dickinson about the need for independence. He says that Americans are very different than the English.

John Dickinson: Fortunately, the people maintain a higher regard for their mother country.

Dr. Benjamin Franklin: Higher, certainly, than she feels for them. Never was such a valuable possession so stupidly and recklessly managed, than this entire continent by the British crown. Our industry discouraged, our resources pillaged... worst of all our very character stifled. We've spawned a new race here, Mr. Dickinson. Rougher, simpler; more violent, more enterprising; less refined. We're a new nationality. We require a new nation.

To me, that says that comparisons with other countries is like comparing apples to coffee pots.

I wish I could say that my time in the Army was without bloodshed. I don't regret the things I have seen and done, but I wish they had not been necessary. I envy you.

I don't know if ModelSarah is continuing to follow this thread, but if she is, I would like to thank her for her contribution, even though I disagree with her. Civil dialogue is a freedom in this country that more and more is coming under attack.