What Fun Productions wrote:
The players disrespected the flag. They knew what they were doing. They did not care.

1)  Any perceived flag disrespect is on you.  It's an opinion.
2)  They claim they didn't intent to disrespect the flag -- I see no evidence that they "knew what they were doing".
3)  Seems pretty clear that they do care.  (And yes, that's my opinion).  Them "not caring" suits your narrative, but
     there's nothing to support your supposition.

This talk about alleged disrespecting the flag is just a smokescreen, taking attention away from the subject at hand and does nothing but continue dividing us on a very important subject.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but stop derailing the narrative.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Another opinion:

Yes, another opinion. From yet another non-veteran telling me what I should feel about how the flag is treated. From a guy who has never been outside professional sports, and hasnt got a clue what serving in the military means.

He understands the folly of the administration telling us how we should feel, then does it himself. Can you say hypocrisy?

You will forgive me, (I hope) if I dont give much (any) weight to his opinion.

What is so hard for you to understand? Regardless of how many people you trot out to tell us that it wasnt meant to be offensive, to many thousands of Americans, whether veterans or not, Kaepernick and his followers have chosen a form of protest that is offensive, and in ----my---- opinion, buries his real message.

As I keep saying, I believe Kaepernick has a valid reason to protest. I believe he had a right to protest. I believe he chose the wrong forum, and I believe he is paying the price for a poor career (commercial) choice, not his political beliefs.

rfordphotos wrote:
Yes, another opinion. From another non-veteran telling me what I should feel about how the flag is treated. From a guy who has never been outside professional sports, and hasnt got a clue what serving in the military means.

He understands the folly of the administration telling us how we should feel, then does it himself. Can you say hypocrisy?

You will forgive me, (I hope) if I dont give much (any) weight to his opinion.

What is so hard for you to understand? ...

There's nothing to forgive -- you are entitled to how you feel.  I got no problem with that.  Well, to be totally truthful, there are too many people (especially politicians) who put forward hypotheses & opinions as if they were facts -- e.g. "school shootings happen because schools have too many doors".  As a skeptic & a pseudo-scientist, I kinda want some proof before I accept their premises.

My point about offering counter-arguments is to show that there isn't consensus about whether kneeling at the anthem is or is not intended to be disrespectful to the flag and/or veterans.  There is no "right" and "wrong"; there are only opinions here.

So, let's assume that I understand, or if you prefer, we can assume that I don't understand.  It doesn't matter.

What matters is this:  Do we have a problem in this country with police brutality against people of color?  Do people of color have a point about their perception of injustice?  If so, what can or should be done about that?

Looknsee Photography wrote:
1)  Any perceived flag disrespect is on you.  It's an opinion.
2)  They claim they didn't intent to disrespect the flag -- I see no evidence that they "knew what they were doing".
3)  Seems pretty clear that they do care.  (And yes, that's my opinion).  Them "not caring" suits your narrative, but
     there's nothing to support your supposition.

This talk about alleged disrespecting the flag is just a smokescreen, taking attention away from the subject at hand and does nothing but continue dividing us on a very important subject.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but stop derailing the narrative.

Here it is from the horses mouth."
"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color.
Colin Kaepernick

It was always intended to disrespect the flag. If you still don't understand that, please re-read the quote again.  Let it sink in...

What Fun Productions wrote:
Here it is from the horses mouth.
"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color.
Colin Kaepernick

It was always intended to disrespect the flag. If you still don't understand that, please re-read the quote again.  Let it sink in...

Give it up, What Fun.  To me, that quote shows that his action was all about his opposition to "a country that oppresses black people and people of color", and says nothing about an intention to disrespect the flag.  It's about expressing a criticism of our country, which the flag as a symbol says he has the right to do. 

Sorry -- that quote is not proof -- it's open to interpretation.  The issue is about oppression of ... people of color and in no way indicates an intention to disrespect the flag.

And in a racially charged discussion, it might not be appropriate to call someone a "horse".

Looknsee Photography wrote:
I think I "do" Memorial Day all wrong.

First & foremost, I absolutely do appreciate the soldiers of our country, especially the ones who made the ultimate sacrifice. 
Then I got to thinking -- what about the police and/or firefighters who gave their all in the line of duty?  Is it okay to honor them on Memorial Day?

[...]So, I don't do Memorial Day well.

Firefighters have their day. By Public Law 107–51 all flags on public building are lowered to half mast to coincide with the National Fallen Firefighters Memorial Service annually.

Fallen police officers have their day. Public Law 87-726  authorized and requested the President to designate May 15 of each year as "Peace Officers Memorial Day," and the week in which it falls as "National Police Week" and by Public Law 103-322 has requested that the flag be flown at half-staff on Peace Officers' Memorial Day.

I would never for one second wish to minimize my admiration for all who serve as police and firefighters. I was a part time firefighter for a couple years, and I can tell you those that make a career of it earn your admiration every day.

A local bridge is named after one of my friends, a guy I hunted deer with for years... a serving police detective killed while attempting to arrest a murder suspect. So I have some idea of their sacrifice.

So, you can certainly remember anyone you want to on Memorial Day. But, I dont really think one day a year is too much to ask to just remember the folks who died not just for your town, not just for your local security, but for entire the nation.

rfordphotos wrote:
So, you can certainly remember anyone you want to on Memorial Day. But, I dont really think one day a year is too much to ask to just remember the folks who died not just for your town, not just for your local security, but for entire the nation.

I agree -- one day is not too much.  But like I said, with no personal history to connect, the pure objective of Memorial Day is somewhat abstract to me.  So, I'm easily distracted, especially this time around.

Memorial Day, at its roots, started soon after the Civil War with people putting flowers on the graves of fallen soldiers, regardless of which side on which they fought.  It was intended to help heal & reunite the country!  Nowadays, it seems that politicians are striving to divide us, which is the opposite intention of the original purpose of Memorial Day.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
I think I "do" Memorial Day all wrong.

First & foremost, I absolutely do appreciate the soldiers of our country, especially the ones who made the ultimate sacrifice. 

I am fortunate that I don't personally know anyone who made the ultimate sacrifice for our country.  I do know some police & firefighters, and I was a firefighter for a little while), but again none who died in the line of duty.  Thus, for me, Memorial Day is more abstract & less personal.

So, I don't do Memorial Day well.

Maybe you'd have a different take on all of this if you did.  I know you're a white man living in crunchy/granola-loving Portland but most people care about people dying.  Black people die for our country too.  White people get shot unjustly not just in war. 

If you have such reverie for firefighters and police, give a damn about the military too.  You don't have to be in the military to honor America and the flag.

rfordphotos wrote:
Yes, another opinion. From yet another non-veteran telling me what I should feel about how the flag is treated. From a guy who has never been outside professional sports, and hasnt got a clue what serving in the military means.

He understands the folly of the administration telling us how we should feel, then does it himself. Can you say hypocrisy?

On further thought -- this is a logical fallacy, assuming only veterans can determine what is or is not disrespectful to the flag.  See Argument from authority.

On a similar tangent -- can a white person speak about the oppression of people of color in this country?  Can a man be a feminist?

Okay -- Here's a quote from a veteran.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Give it up, What Fun.  To me, that quote shows that his action was all about his opposition to "a country that oppresses black people and people of color", and says nothing about an intention to disrespect the flag.  It's about expressing a criticism of our country, which the flag as a symbol says he has the right to do. 

Sorry -- that quote is not proof -- it's open to interpretation.  The issue is about oppression of ... people of color and in no way indicates an intention to disrespect the flag.

And in a racially charged discussion, it might not be appropriate to call someone a "horse".

"Horse," you are too much!  Everything is identity politics to you. LOL

Americans of all colors are offended by the players actions. The players protest has HURT their own cause. It's too bad.

LightDreams wrote:
One of life's little ironies...

I just finish reading about how these protests aren't about racial injustice, but are about disrespecting veterans and the flag.

Then I switch to the news and read about the group of veterans and the mural they painted in protest.  The mural happens to be an upside down U.S. flag with the stars replaced by crosses. Their chosen form of protest.

That is their first amendment right. God bless them!

Looknsee Photography wrote:
[...]

1)  There have been a big lot of military actions that I did not agree with.  But the way things stand, it's impossible to question the government without "appearing" to be disrespectful or critical of veterans & service people.  How can one say "we should not invade Iraq" without appearing to be unsupportive of the folks in service?

Really? Cant be critical of the govt. and not appear to criticize the military or veterans?

Several of the 21 Senators who voted against the Iraqi war were veterans... They had no problem speaking up..... Several were decorated, and at least one, Daniel Inouye, had a Medal of Honor. I think they believed (as do I ) that voting their true beliefs was not only ---not--- "disrespecting" veterans or the military but the best and highest possible way to respect their sacrifices.

I didnt have any problem whatsoever writing countless letters opposing the invasion of Iraq, and our involvement in Afghanistan.

I think you will find MANY anti-war veterans who have no problem voicing their concerns without ever disrespecting the military or other veterans.

If you cant find a way to question the govt's proposed military actions without appearing to disrespect the vets or the military---as you say---thats on you.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
On further thought -- this is a logical fallacy, assuming only veterans can determine what is or is not disrespectful to the flag.  See Argument from authority.

On a similar tangent -- can a white person speak about the oppression of people of color in this country?  Can a man be a feminist?

Okay -- Here's a quote from a veteran.

no logical fallacy there- never said a word about non vets having or not having an opinion. Just said that in this instance, their opinions about disrespecting the flag dont hold much weight with -me-.

rfordphotos wrote:

Really? Cant be critical of the govt. and not appear to criticize the military or veterans?

Several of the 21 Senators who voted against the Iraqi war were veterans... They had no problem speaking up..... Several were decorated, and at least one, Daniel Inouye, had a Medal of Honor. I think they believed (as do I ) that voting their true beliefs was not only ---not--- "disrespecting" veterans or the military but the best and highest possible way to respect their sacrifices.

I didnt have any problem whatsoever writing countless letters opposing the invasion of Iraq, and our involvement in Afghanistan.

I think you will find MANY anti-war veterans who have no problem voicing their concerns without ever disrespecting the military or other veterans.

If you cant find a way to question the govt's proposed military actions without appearing to disrespect the vets or the military---as you say---thats on you.

back then, yeah - you could be critical while bring respectful. Now, not so much.

Now we have so many politicians (not just the one) using vets as pawns that EVERYTHING is critical of vets, even when it's not.

Remember our government shutdown a few months back? Dems wouldn't vote on a spending bill until DACA was addressed; Republicans countered by saying that since a shutdown would freeze vet services and pensions, that showed that Dems cared more about undocumented immigrants than the troops.

Bam, instant vet hate, from an issue that had zero to do with the military.

So no ... In today's climate, it's not possible to criticize any aspect of our country without some idiot recasting it as hating the troops.

Zack Zoll wrote:
[...]
So no ... In today's climate, it's not possible to criticize any aspect of our country without some idiot recasting it as hating the troops.

Sorry to hear you feel that way Zack.

With respect, maybe you should stop listening to the fanatical voices screaming at either end of the political spectrum. I know they both support the sentiment of hopelessness you express, each in their own ways.

If you listen closely, there are a lot more voices coming from the center, where people are still talking to one another, where compromise isnt seen as a dirty word. Populism will pass. The center is stronger now than it was before the last election cycle, and it will continue growing in strength as long as both extremes continue the paralyzing divisive tactics they are using now.

Zack Zoll wrote:
[...]

Remember our government shutdown a few months back? Dems wouldn't vote on a spending bill until DACA was addressed; Republicans countered by saying that since a shutdown would freeze vet services and pensions, that showed that Dems cared more about undocumented immigrants than the troops.

Bam, instant vet hate, from an issue that had zero to do with the military.

[...]

Zack- politicians have been using veterans as cudgels against their political foes for decades. It isnt anything new. If politicians actually gave a shit about vets, the VA wouldnt be the decades long scandal that it is.

/end hijack---------- sorry back to OP's topic.....I will shut up.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
I think I "do" Memorial Day all wrong.

First & foremost, I absolutely do appreciate the soldiers of our country, especially the ones who made the ultimate sacrifice. 

I am fortunate that I don't personally know anyone who made the ultimate sacrifice for our country.  I do know some police & firefighters, and I was a firefighter for a little while), but again none who died in the line of duty.  Thus, for me, Memorial Day is more abstract & less personal.

So, I don't do Memorial Day well.

Jules NYC wrote:
Maybe you'd have a different take on all of this if you did.  I know you're a white man living in crunchy/granola-loving Portland but most people care about people dying.  Black people die for our country too.  White people get shot unjustly not just in war. 

If you have such reverie for firefighters and police, give a damn about the military too.  You don't have to be in the military to honor America and the flag.

I think this post is unjustified & uncalled for.  I don't see how ragging on my home town diminishes my points or strengthen yours.  Look at the very first statement, the one in underlined bold -- I am greatly appreciative of our military, even when I disagree with how the politicians spend that loyalty & faith.

What Fun Productions wrote:
SOME Americans of all colors are offended by the players actions, AND SOME ARE NOT.

Fixed that for you.

What Fun Productions wrote:
The players protest has HURT their own cause. It's too bad.

I've said from the very first post that this is a poorly perceived & executed protest.

rfordphotos wrote:

JQuest wrote:
I'm a DD-214 Alumni. To paraphrase Hall/Voltaire, "I disapprove of your protest, but I shall defend to the death your right to do so."

Thank you guys.  And it isn't because I didn't have to go that I say so.

Jules NYC wrote:

Funny stuff.  Got any from the perspective of black people?

You know, it was because of a suggestion during a conversation with a vet, also a ball player, that he stopped sitting and started kneeling.

rfordphotos wrote:

Zack- politicians have been using veterans a cudgels against their political foes for decades. It isnt anything new. If politicians actually gave a shit about vets, the VA wouldnt be the decades long scandal that it is.

/end hijack---------- sorry back to OP's topic.....I will shut up.

Yeah, but Twitter makes it different.

In the old days, a politician would spend time and money coming up with combat fatigue instead of shell shock, so the situation sounds less severe and they can justify cutting funding or services. All that stuff went through layer upon layer of filters, to the point where (a) it had a chance to get shot down or at least be discussed, and (b) it becomes significantly less inflammatory. Now they just spew whatever comes to mind so they can be first in the discussion, and blame a staffer if it goes pear shaped.

It's nice to easily identify racists, classists, etc. - you can push through a lot more when you focus test "urban" as a racial replacement. But by and large,I don't think it's an improvement.

rfordphotos wrote:
Sorry to hear you feel that way Zack.

With respect, maybe you should stop listening to the fanatical voices screaming at either end of the political spectrum. I know they both support the sentiment of hopelessness you express, each in their own ways.

If you listen closely, there are a lot more voices coming from the center, where people are still talking to one another, where compromise isnt seen as a dirty word. Populism will pass. The center is stronger now than it was before the last election cycle, and it will continue growing in strength as long as both extremes continue the paralyzing divisive tactics they are using now.

I think in time, what you say will be true. It sounds like a cop-out, but we're a very young nation, compared to most of Europe and Asia, and we've been fortunate to have avoided much of what they have gone through. We had a civil war. Singular.  We've never been occupied ... Unless you count the very beginning, of course. I could stop there and we'd already be pretty far ahead.

But that only happens because we've been fairly good at shouting down the loonies. After all, it only takes one Louis XIV, or whomever, to totally throw things out of wack.

I agree that it will get better, but I think that requires calling out injustice and radical beliefs - not just expecting that they'll sort themselves out in time.

Hunter  GWPB wrote:
Funny stuff.  Got any from the perspective of black people?

You know, it was because of a suggestion during a conversation with a vet, also a ball player, that he stopped sitting and started kneeling.

Political cartoonists are great because they clearly illustrate what’s going on usually from every view.

The reason a black man is sitting is because of a black problem/law enforcement. Yes, he has every right to do what he’s doing. You keep hearing white privilege being thrown around a lot. Completely different from being financially privileged. It’s just amazing to me how blessed this man is ($) who has the financial means to voice his opinion about this very issue anywhere but the game.

https://goo.gl/images/qXu6wA

There is probably a bunch from this link you can check out from every side of the issue.
Any vet that I’ve ever talked to (and I worked with MANY), loved their country/flag, etc.

Found it.

He talked to a Green Beret, Nate Boyer.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sbnati … nal-anthem

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/201 … em-bts.cnn

His fellow Green Berets & other vets not so happy with Boyer.
http://www.espn.com/blog/san-francisco- … nths-later

Boyer was honorably discharged and was healthy enough to play football.

Interesting take in Boyer’s second open letter. Still don’t agree with him but he does make a good point about the country’s divide.
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2100 … es-america

Confused though how standing like everyone else would have shown protest.

That's how it all started with Colin and I, neither of us knew that kneeling would be the result of our conversation. Colin wanted to sit, I wanted him to stand, and so we found a common ground on a knee alongside his teammates.

Looknsee Photography wrote:

I think this post is unjustified & uncalled for.  I don't see how ragging on my home town diminishes my points or strengthen yours.  Look at the very first statement, the one in underlined bold -- I am greatly appreciative of our military, even when I disagree with how the politicians spend that loyalty & faith.

You really need to ease up on what your town is but sorry if you’re offended.
I think you are watering your point of view with your ‘I care about the troops’ theme because most of what you’ve been saying doesn’t reflect that.

Some vets may agree with you, some may not.

This issue upset a lot of people, many with opposing views which of course we’re all free to have.

Jules NYC wrote:
You really need to ease up on what your town is but sorry if you’re offended.
I think you are watering your point of view with your ‘I care about the troops’ theme because most of what you’ve been saying doesn’t reflect that.

To be clear -- I don't give a hoot about what you think about my home town.  My point is that your opinion about my town contributes nothing to this debate. 

All the rest -- also contributes nothing.  It's another logical fallacy to appear to lessen the strength of my arguments by belittling me or claiming that you know me better (and that I'm lying).  It ain't that simple.

Here's a hint -- address the topic & not the speaker, and yes, I am aware I'm not doing that right now.  Apologies.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
To be clear -- I don't give a hoot about what you think about my home town.  My point is that your opinion about my town contributes nothing to this debate. 

All the rest -- also contributes nothing.  It's another logical fallacy to appear to lessen the strength of my arguments by belittling me or claiming that you know me better (and that I'm lying).  It ain't that simple.

Here's a hint -- address the topic & not the speaker, and yes, I am aware I'm not doing that right now.  Apologies.

I don't care about your town either but I do care about this topic.  Here's not a hint, here's a direct statement: Your 'care' about the military is not convincing if you read through your own thread.

The topic is one you created; you should be able to discuss it.  Honing in on the smallest of slights (in your mind) is counter-intuitive.  This discussion is not really a debate either.  It's just a bunch of people sharing their thoughts, not trying to win a prize here for the best answer.

You can't take one's opinion away about anything really.  I haven't read anything you've written that seems like you genuinely mean what you're saying.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
[...]
That's how I feel.

And no one here is surprised.

rfordphotos wrote:

And no one here is surprised.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Clearly, I've found this topic to be thought provoking.  Here's some of my latest thoughts.

When I was a team leader, I remember having a discussion about how to set priorities.  I used an analogy:
     Your daughter wants a cookie; your son is on fire.  What do you do?

Here's how I think this applies to this conversation:

Your Daughter Wants A Cookie.
Apologies in advance to those who disagree, but I can't accept that Kaepernick's actions rise to the level of "disrespect for the flag".  Here's my thinking:
...  He did not burn the flag.
...  He did not pull the flag down & stomped on it.
...  He did not cut up or otherwise destroy the flag.
...  He did not display the flag at all, let alone upside down or backwards.
...  He did not modify the flag.
...  He did not use the flag as a bandana to wipe sweat from his brow.
...  He did not choose to display the confederate flag in the place of the stars & stripes.
...  He did not attempt to prevent others from standing or kneeling as they saw fit.
...  He did not seek attention with his actions -- the media sought him out.

Indeed, under all other circumstances I can think of, kneeling is a sign of respect.  People kneel when they pray.  People kneel before Zod and other Lords & masters.  People kneel to propose marriage.  Indeed, Kaepernick's sitting & kneeling -- he could not have found a more quiet, peaceful, non-provocative way to express himself.  So, sorry -- on a scale of 1 to 10, kneeling during the anthem barely scores a "1", IMO.

Your Son Is On Fire.
Some have pointed out, multiple times, this Kaepernick quote:  ""I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color".  But to me, those in the "he's disrespecting the flag & the military" camp only hear ""I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country blah, blah, blah".  But it's the "blah, blah, blah" part that is important.  Worse, to me, those who are focused on the alleged disrespect of the flag (daughter wants a cookie) while ignoring the alleged country that oppresses ... people of color (son is on fire) are a big, big part of the problem.  To me, those who don't pay attention to the oppression of people of color are saying (again, to me):
...  Racism is acceptable & honorable, performed by fine people,
...  People of color should not sit in a Starbucks or have a family picnic in a local park,
...  It's okay for the police to shoot citizens of color who are holding cell phones or CDs,
...  It's okay to split families up, toss otherwise law abiding people out of the country, and then losing the kids,
...  It's perfectly acceptable to gerrymander a state to suppress the voices of people of color,
...  It's okay to harass women wearing hijabs,
...  It's okay to burn houses of worship (if that religion is not Christian),
...  It's okay to prevent LGTBQ people from enjoying the same rights as straight white folks
and so on.  I'm sorry, but a little, quiet, peaceful gesture like kneeling during the anthem comes nowhere close to the severity of these "oppress people of color" issues.

That's how I feel.

This seems a bit vague... would you mind going into more detail?