rfordphotos wrote:

A word of warning about Globefunseekers favorite source of videos---Bitchute.com---- the majority of their videos are banned on responsible social media for fakery and misinformation.

Globefunseekers---  I too trust most people to be able to take information and make their own decisions----

Bitchute is well known as a site that hosts the most outlandish, most whacked out weirdo conspiracy stories on the web---

Globefunseekers --- is this more of your "mainstream media"?

here are a few samples of currently offered titles of Bitchute videos:

----Another "interview" with Malone----by Alex Jones, famed far right conspiracy whacko from Infowars---

"Dr. Robert Malone Visits Infowars After Being Banned By Twitter | Kristi Leigh TV"


-----now- the "spirits" are talking about Malone:

"The ENEMY exposed through SPIRITS on New Year's EVE! Dr. Malone continued..."


-----or maybe you would prefer some time travel news:

"The Secret Time Travel Program And Political Manipulation By The CIA"


------or some "science":

"GOD's Name is in Your DNA. COVID Vaccines Replace GOD with Lucifer"


-----maybe some space aliens?

"WHAT ARE THEY HIDING IN ANTARCTICA!? ALIEN BASES! SSP PROJECTS! ADVANCED TECH! ATLANTIS!"


-----or some good old fashioned conspiracy theories?

"FREEMASONRY THEY CONTROL EVERYTHING! RESTORE MOTHER EARTH'S POWER GRID ARCHITECTURE!"

Yes, Bitchute is a free speech platform, that means there's lots of crazy shit in it, it's true.  If you can't tell the difference if someone is making sense or making claims without any proof of it, maybe it's not for you.  I stand on the idea that the truth is exposed in the debate, those who claim the earth is flat are countered with facts that airlines make the trip from Sidney Australia to south america in one shot and disprove their map,  That's how it's always worked for those who have a brain to think, some will still go on to say it's flat after, but that's no reason to start taking down everything we disagree with because some might believe in a lie. 

Joe Rogan asks great questions, they talked about the twitter removing him too.  Like I said, all questions were asked, trying to prevent people from watching it because the platform contains videos of flat earthers and alien nonsense is no different than watching youtube or FB or Twitter that also contains tons of crazy stuff.  The sensorship of other platforms is discussed in there too.  You don't have to go into the rabbit hole of other videos there, you can just watch this podcast, which used to be on youtube and it's the most popular podcast in the world for good reason.

You can show all the things being written about Dr. Malone or hear it from the man himself. that's up to you as well.

rfordphotos wrote:
Globefunseekers, I have respectfully asked you "WHY" you believe these things.

You keep providing videos of people like Malone with outlandish positions, positions thousands of other experts dont support.

I have explained why ___I___ dont believe your sources, but you have yet to explain "WHY" you find them credible.

Help us out here....

It's one very long story.  I actually started in March 2020 thinking it was real and did what the government asked, stayed home except for essential things from mid march until April.  Then there was that news clip from the NY hospital showing people outside getting tested, and saying they didn't have enough ventilators, the very next day this guy I used to follow on youtube who used to do live videos walking around NY was live outside that same hospital, no lines of people, he even asked nurses walking in what was happening as well as immergency responders who had many ambulances just parked there, they all said things were normal.  That's what started me asking questions, so the next day, I passed by 2 of the biggest hospitals in my area and things looked pretty relaxed as well even tho cases were rising by the 1000s in my area.  The next day, I went to get breakfast and ate in outside the hospital just to see if activity increased, NOPE. Asked a nurse who was out smoking, She said was normal day, I asked if I could get tested, she said I couldn't unless I was very sick and required care, and the test would take 3 days to return from the lab.  I called a nurse friend who said the same as well as other things that made no sense to me or her.  I've been asking questions ever since, and it's been pretty obvious the news won't answer any of them.  Problem sometimes is trying to decide which information is credible and which isn't. There's misinformation on all sides, the first thing I found out is there's many different agendas being pushed, but none that I can see are good for any of us.  I certainly don't know everything, but I know there's no pandemic, and the virus being dangerous or not, I know my freedom is way more important, if these vax passports get implemented, we all loose it, I know that too. 

There's way more too it, like I said, long story, that's just the beginning.

rfordphotos wrote:
ok, we are just going to have to disagree about Robert Malone. You believe him, I believe the hundreds who dont believe him. Seems unlikely either of us will change positions. So be it.

Lets move past that.

Why do you say there is no pandemic?

Why do you say no one is getting sick from Covid?

I ask questions, you can too.  Ask your local grocery store who deal with thousands of customers daily if anyone got hospitalized or died?  ask your UPS or Postal service, or FEDEX driver the same, they work in locations with hundreds of employes all in one place, the masks didn't start until summer 2020 getting mandated either.  Ask in Airports who never closed restaurants or bars, in fact my trip in July 2020 I made a joke that those who wanted to go to restaurant or bar, could just buy a ticket, go eat at the airport, then go to the airline and refuse the mask, they give you your money back and you go home, repeat the next time you want to go again. LOL. It was so stupid.  Ask people walking around without the masks, they all have great insight too and tell you their experiences.  I've been in 3 states and outside the country, it's the same everywhere, and most have similar stories.  Some tested positive, or were sick, majority of those if you ask how bad it was, can't differentiate if it may have been a common cold or not.

LightDreams wrote:
While your stated experience is certainly massively different from so many of our personal, first hand, experiences (inability to attend funerals in person for those that we've lost, desperately sick relatives, businesses closed due to lack of healthy staff, etc), maybe you could explain your views a little further...

Do you believe this is an organized conspiracy to mislead the public?  If so, just how widespread (and organized / not organized) do you think it actually is?   Or...?

Those things you point out, funerals, being with relatives etc. those were government that prevented those things, not the virus, everyone now keeps pointing out the pandemic is the cause of all these things, but the reality is that it was the response to it that did those.  I too lost a cousin to cancer and couldn't attend her funeral.  I believe many elderly died of neglect, that's just my opinion but leaving the elderly in care homes and prevent family visiting not allow touching, etc, that's cruel, If I was in that position I'd prefer to risk death to touch my kids or grand kids, but those choices were taken away "for your own good". Again that's just my own opinion, I'm sure others feel different, but viruses don't close businesses or do those other things.  I have opinions about why, but that's just my opinion as well, and most comes down to money.  Let's just say, a local coffee shop doesn't have hundreds of lobbyests fighting for them, instead it has starbucks lobbyests fighting against them. 

Do I believe it's an organized conspiracy to mislead the public?  Absolutely.  It's not the first time, this happens with every crisis.  What's the saying, "don't let a good crisis go to waste"  Why would you remove all voices in opposition to it, or go so far as to try to discredit individuals, many doctors who are some of the top experts in their field?  They write so many hit pieces against them, some even turn into lawsuits and they do it anyway.  And why would a doctor sue a publication who wrote something against them if it was a lie?  Wouldn't the lawsuit prove it's a lie and make it worse for them?  I always look at the principal of "follow the money, who gains"  I know someone here brought up the Trump suing, but it's not the same, if Trump won HE would be the one to gain, a doctor suing for lies gains nothing if he wins except his credibility.

Globefunseekers wrote:
Do I believe it's an organized conspiracy to mislead the public?  Absolutely...

Could you help us understand how that would be done?

Would the worldwide media have to be involved?   How about the different White House administrations (depending on the timing), various countries, medical associations, scientific organizations, etc?

What kind of assistance would be required at the local levels (hospitals, mortuaries, regional Governments, local media, etc)?

Or could you just do it with just a few key players (which ones?) that could be leveraged in some way to pull it off on a worldwide scale?

Or...?

Just trying to understand the logistics as it seems like that might be the biggest challenge...

LightDreams wrote:

Could you help us understand how that would be done?

Would the worldwide media have to be involved?   How about the different White House administrations (depending on the timing), various countries, medical associations, scientific organizations, etc?

What kind of assistance would be required at the local levels (hospitals, mortuaries, regional Governments, local media, etc)?

Or could you just do it with just a few key players (which ones?) that could be leveraged in some way to pull it off on a worldwide scale?

Or...?

Just trying to understand the logistics as it seems like that might be the biggest challenge...

Great questions.  I don't really have the answers you want, the truth is I myself have nothing but questions that go unaswered.  Looking at history for example the H1N1 panic was driven for about one year, I remember visiting Asia and was even asked to sign a paper declaring I was healthy and contact info in case anyone I was near contracted the virus, we now know thanks to an ABC investigative report that it was all for nothing.  You can go further back, to weapons of mass destruction, that was a collaborative effort by the media to sell a lie to start a war.  Since then the media only became more in line with the government, in fact it's now safe to say the media is an arm of the government.  Most media on TV is controlled by only 6 corporations, add FB, Twitter and Google you got 9, All those companies's majority shareholders are 3 investment management companies, the biggest ones being Blackrock and Vanguard, that makes information a tightly controlled monopoly, so it's not so hard to deceive the masses.  And yes, FOX and CNN are actually controlled by the same people when you come down to it.  Don't believe me.  Look up AT&T ticker symbol T on yahoo finance and find out major sharholders,  Then do the same thing for  ticker FOX for Fox corporation.  We'd all like to believe the world is run by some nice guys, but it's not, it's run by liars. 

As for the rest of the world, that part is not so hard most countries are run by people who desire more power, not to mention the same corporations that run the US also run most of the world, in some cases in a larger scale.  Just look at the UN agenda 2030, it was signed on by 195 countries.  You really think countries that are at war with each other, countries who murder their own people, some have open slave trading, some have such extreme poverty their people die in the streets, but somehow their going grow some trees and burn less coal while they murder, rape and pillage?  It's almost a joke.

rfordphotos wrote:
Your experiences during the pandemic are so markedly different its like we are talking about two different planets.

My last trip to the hospital, I waited in line about 20-25 minutes to be unloaded from the ambulance before entering the ER. Once in the ER, I had a significant wait in the hall for an exam room. After seeing the doctor, I waited 9 1/2 hours to be moved from the ER to a cardiac critical care bed upstairs. My respiratory therapist said she was on her 17th straight 12 hour shift because of staff illness.

That hospital is usually busy, but my nurse told me they were seeing at least 30% more patients per day than before. Most of the increase was directly attributed to covid 19.

My neighbor across the street works as a plant operator at the local power plant. Last fall (2020), he was working 12 on, 12 off for months because of illness in the crew. He ultimately ended up in the ICU with Covid 19,  if I recall correctly he spent 4 or 5 days on a ventilator, and lost over 7 weeks off work. He says he still suffers "long covid" symptoms. His mother died of pneumonia 10 days after testing positive for covid.

His next door neighbor also ended up in the hospital with covid.

I use Uber to get around- my average wait time for a ride went from about 5 minutes to sometimes over an hour- no drivers available.

I get my groceries delivered by Instacart- used to get deliveries in under 2 hours, often takes 4 or more now. No shoppers available.

My best friend lives in Maui. He had both shots when he got a breakthrough case of Covid-  He has severe asthma so he was concerned as he was huffing and puffing (his words) pretty hard. Good news is he was only sick for a couple weeks, seems fully recovered and is "boosted" now.

Another friend  down near Santa Barbara is a retired respiratory therapist- his former employer offered him 6 months salary as a bonus and double his previous rate for hours worked if he would come back- they were desperate- (he said no)

Your experience flies in the face of the 826,000 reported deaths in the US--- I know- you dont believe they exist--- but I do. I believe the funeral parlors are backed up because I know folks who had to wait to bury relatives.

I know you say I should doubt the figures the govt supplies---but to be honest, you just havent convinced me your doubts are anything more than anti-govt sentiment, and a tendency to believe conspiracy theories...

You really should watch that Joe Rogan interview, all 3 hours of it, he goes on to talk about the hospitals, some of which I don't know if it's true, but the fact they have incentives to have covid patients and put them on ventilators which by the way kills most of them, that part is true.

Globefunseekers wrote:
You really should watch that Joe Rogan interview, all 3 hours of it, he goes on to talk about the hospitals, some of which I don't know if it's true, but the fact they have incentives to have covid patients and put them on ventilators which by the way kills most of them, that part is true.

You see--- (well, actually I guess you really dont see, there's the problem) you have just presented yet another unsupported conspiracy theory.

The Rogan interview --- an interview with a with a man I already know is spreading unsound, unfounded information---why would I watch it? What would I learn beyond further proof that Robert Malone is spreading his distorted versions of "truths" which are consistently refuted by hundreds of qualified experts? Rogan himself consistently displays his lack of understanding of the science he "questions". His show exists strictly to capture advertising dollars, he is an entertainer, nothing more. Certainly not a source of reliable medical information.

The fact he has a "popular' podcast does NOTHING to increase his credibility. Tucker Carlson has the most popular show on Fox, and even Fox's own legal staff admits it is riddled with lies. Popularity does not have a damn thing to do with truth or credibility.

What data do you have to support your statement that ventilators "kill most of them" -- who told you that? Rogan? You misconstrue facts to suit your anti govt bias- over and over. "Hospitals have an incentive to put patients on ventilators that kill most of them"---Do you realize how silly that sounds?---(no I guess not).

LightDreams wrote:
Let's start with one simple one, and then a second, REALLY important one...
---

FIRST, Fox News and CNN are NOT owned by the same company, nor do they trade together on the stock market.  Not even close.

CNN is owned by Warner Media / AT&T.   Fox News is owned by Fox News / the Murdock family - NASDAQ "FOXA".  And their editorial positions all through the pandemic have been dramatically different.

---
.

That's not what I mean, I'm aware it's different companies, but 2 of the major shareholders for AT&T and FOX are the same, and that is Blackrock and Vanguard.  You don't think 1 billion shares between them gives them a say?

LightDreams wrote:
Let me try and, hopefully, do a better job explaining the numbers "logic" problem with the ventilator conspiracy theory.

Think of it like the issue of "palliative care".  That's where someone goes when they are dying of a terminal illness, but are not on any kind of ICU life saving equipment.   They're "homes" where the staff are better able to cater to the emotional and peaceful environmental needs of those dying patients, along with others who are in the same situation.

Now the numbers would, presumably, show that 100% of the patients that are admitted to palliative care, will die.

So is the medical community "killing them" by sending them to palliative care?  After all, 100% of them WILL DIE once the hospitals and doctors take that step.

That is the classic relevant conspiracy case logic in action, based on the medical steps that were taken and the final result numbers.  Notice the problem with that logic?  They were dying which is WHY they were sent to palliative care.   Being put in palliative care did not kill them.

I.E.  Do many patients who die once they are on ventilators, die BECAUSE they were put on ventilators?  Or is the fact that they wouldn't be able to breathe on their own for much longer (i.e. they are certainly dying otherwise), the REASON they were put on ventilators?  Some of whom will then be able to fight their way back from death's door?  Yet the "numbers" are the same either way.

Hopefully that might help you to understand the difference (using the same set of numbers), when it's horribly twisted into an ugly conspiracy theory.

Read a book called "Undercover epicenter nurse"  She was the first to expose the hospitals, I first thought she was a shill, because she went on FOX news to do this in 2020 and is a known Republican, but months later started following closer, she lost everything after, her job, career, even her social media was taken down.  A 30k bonus to put patients on ventilators is a good enough encentive, many countries people get straight killed for that much.  I certainly don't think most hospitals are doing this, but why such an incentive?  How about 30k if they recover, that would be the right way to do it.

Globefunseekers wrote:
Read a book called "Undercover epicenter nurse"  She was the first to expose the hospitals, I first thought she was a shill, because she went on FOX news to do this in 2020 and is a known Republican, but months later started following closer, she lost everything after, her job, career, even her social media was taken down.  A 30k bonus to put patients on ventilators is a good enough encentive, many countries people get straight killed for that much.  I certainly don't think most hospitals are doing this, but why such an incentive?  How about 30k if they recover, that would be the right way to do it.

Have you verified the claims she made and those false claims which you advance here?  Isn't reading the patient for their needs the right way to do it?  Hospitals must absorb the cost of the stupid unvaccinated popes treatment if they die because of the the patients actions or inactions?  Are you suggesting that hospitals simply refuse to apply extreme lifesaving techniques to the most a risk patients rather than create the perspecption among the rabbit hole dwellers that incentives are paid for nefarious reasons?

https://www.statesman.com/story/news/po … 984130007/

Hunter  GWPB wrote:

Have you verified the claims she made and those false claims which you advance here?  Isn't reading the patient for their needs the right way to do it?  Hospitals must absorb the cost of the stupid unvaccinated popes treatment if they die because of the the patients actions or inactions?  Are you suggesting that hospitals simply refuse to apply extreme lifesaving techniques to the most a risk patients rather than create the perspecption among the rabbit hole dwellers that incentives are paid for nefarious reasons?

https://www.statesman.com/story/news/po … 984130007/

What costs?  In the US in 2020 covid was being paid by the government and there was no vax yet, it's only now that private insurance companies are starting to pay it, which is why this will now end very soon.

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
My grandmother (who always gave good advice) tole me:

Never Argue with a Crazy Person . . . Passersby will not know the difference  . . .

It still amazes me that if you were to take a poll of millions of people and asked "do you trust the government?"  you'd get a no answer over 90% of the time, but they play the same trick with every crisis, scare the sheep then say, "we'll get you out of this, all we need is to print all this money and toss it around our donors, steal just a little of your rights and everything will be just fine"  And the sheep go "well, sure, no problem, I trust you" 

Here's a little piece of History, The IRS was created in 1862 for the purpose of paying for the Civil war.  How long do you think it will take to finish paying it?

Globefunseekers wrote:

It still amazes me that if you were to take a poll of millions of people and asked "do you trust the government?"  you'd get a no answer over 90% of the time, but they play the same trick with every crisis, scare the sheep then say, "we'll get you out of this, all we need is to print all this money and toss it around our donors, steal just a little of your rights and everything will be just fine"  And the sheep go "well, sure, no problem, I trust you" 

Here's a little piece of History, The IRS was created in 1862 for the purpose of paying for the Civil war.  How long do you think it will take to finish paying it?

A polite suggestion-

If you wish to discuss your political beliefs, there is actually a thread in this forum where that is appropriate---

This thread is supposed to be discussions centering on the pandemic.

It has certainly drifted at times, but we have been asked recently to try and stay on topic.

Globefunseekers wrote:
Read a book called "Undercover epicenter nurse"  She was the first to expose the hospitals, I first thought she was a shill, because she went on FOX news to do this in 2020 and is a known Republican, but months later started following closer, she lost everything after, her job, career, even her social media was taken down.  A 30k bonus to put patients on ventilators is a good enough encentive, many countries people get straight killed for that much.  I certainly don't think most hospitals are doing this, but why such an incentive?  How about 30k if they recover, that would be the right way to do it.

Just a little perspective on the book Globefunseekers is "selling"---

This is a summarized version of a review in the book's Amazon listing... judge for yourself:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++


"Joan Edelstein
2.0 out of 5 stars
Reviewed by a Professor of Nursing

Reviewed in the United States on August 29, 2020

Verified Purchase

There is no doubt that mistakes were made when New York City was the epicenter of the Coronavirus pandemic. The country was not prepared for a pandemic any more than Italy was prepared, as we all watched people dying in care facilities and at home during the surge in Italy. We know, for example, there have been terrible racial disparities. At the same time, nursing must be evidence-based, as should a book about care of patients. This is essential for credibility. Nowhere in this book are any references provided to back anything other than anecdotal claims.

This book starts with a 50 page preface by JB Handley, an anti-vaccine friend of Erin's (as is her lawyer, Kevin Barry). Handley, a private-equity entrepreneur in private consumer companies, is not an expert on health care or COVID. [...]

Chapter 1 is a compelling memoir about Erin’s unhappy childhood with many photos. While this is relevant to ultimately working in nursing, it’s unclear how this is related to her description of events at Elmhurst.

Chapter 2 is about Erin’s unhappy time in the military, where the government lied. As a veteran of the Vietnam Era, I have to say I found her description of how she was treated as an enlisted person to be very believable. I can't speak to her experiences in Iraq.

Chapter 3 is all about how Erin became anti-vaccine “I'm not an anti-vaxxer, I'm an ex-vaxxer." touting her AV activism. In a chapter devoted to anti-vaccine activism, her "everything is about profits" theme that informs her NYC 'expose' is presented. She also later doesn't see how her anti-vaccine activism is relevant. The fact the she spent an entire chapter in the same book on that activism makes it relevant.

Chapter 4 finally brings us to NYC, halfway through the book. Erin went with an agenda, bragging about bringing spyglasses, for $10,000/week. As Erin often says, follow the money. Reading her descriptions makes it clear that Erin does not understand nursing education, medical education, COVID-19, NYC, chain of command, or HIPAA. Examples:

Nursing education: Erin touts her experience as a Certified Nursing Assistant (CNA), and explains the typical way to become a nurse is CNA->LPN->ADN->BSN (p152). It's not. She provides no evidence to support this theory. [...] "Most good nurses start out as CNAs," (p151) "That's where it all begins for most nurses" (p152) - neither is true - and then counts her CNA experience as nursing, which it's not, saying she has 18 years of experience (p269) when she has 3 years experience as a Registered Nurse. Erin became a Practical Nurse in 2014 and was not a registered nurse until 2017.

Medical education: "Most interns and residents have never even been at a patient's bedside before, never set foot into a patient's room-not to mention, they've never done so during a pandemic." Interns and residents have, indeed, worked with patients. Medical students start clinical rotations in their 3rd or 4th year, though many programs are starting in the first year. Erin never set foot into a patient's room during a pandemic before arriving at Elmhurst, either. She refers to interns, residents, and actual doctors, clearly not understanding that interns and residents ARE actual doctors.

[...]

Chain of command: I have to question why Erin hasn't complained to an appropriate agency. The Joint Commission on Accreditation of Hospitals takes complaints seriously, as do Boards of Registered Nursing and Medical Boards. Those would be the appropriate agencies for filing complaints, where HIPAA protections for whistleblowers would apply, and real action to fix what Erin views as problems could be taken.

Erin describes advocating for patients by trying to convince treating physicians to use Vitamin C, and touts zinc with hydroxychloroquine. I've watched the interview of her with the recorded conversation with an incredibly patient doctor. In the book, she refers to the doctor in Texas as using them successfully. That doctor is the same conspiracy theorist who believes in alien DNA and women's diseases are caused by sex with demons in dreams. {{{{edit to add: Dr. Stella Immanuel }}}}}}

On page 145, Erin describes PPE use when she took care of Ebola patients. The US had a total of 11 cases of Ebola in 2014, the year Erin was first licensed as an LPN in Wisconsin, where there were no cases of Ebola and an LPN would not have been in that ICU.. At the same time, she publicly posted a picture of herself working at Elmhurst in inappropriate PPE, including a mask with lips (photo included).

[...]

One might argue Erin has tapes that prove her accusations. These have been the basis of HIPAA violation complaints against her. Like many anti-vaccine activists, much is taken out of context and/or misinterpreted. Nurse and doctor colleagues have had no opportunity to share their views, which may well be different and supported by documented fact. [...]

Most of Erin's premises can be debunked. As she herself notes, none of the people she worked with have had the opportunity to fact check or refute her claims.

This is ultimately a book written by a conspiracy theorist paid $10,000/week plus expenses who intended to show the world how incompetent her fellow professionals were.

She accused them, the hospital, and the governor of murder in order to increase her fame. While I was biased going in, I tried to read it with an open mind. Nonetheless, I was appalled at the lack of knowledge, ethics, and professionalism. In addition, Erin clearly didn't have an editor, which was badly needed. This is a fail on professionalism, ethics, and credibility."

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Globefunseekers wrote:
A 30k bonus to put patients on ventilators is a good enough encentive...

Are you saying that the Doctors are putting them on ventilators and (if I understand your previous claim) killing them by putting them on ventilators, because the hospitals get 30K for each one?

Or...?

And how does the other part of the conspiracy fit in?  The "no one is getting sick" from Covid part.  Are they falsely labelling them as Covid and putting them on those "deadly" ventilators?

Joe Tomasone wrote:
[...]
Frankly, I think it would be more helpful to try and get the person you don't agree with to expand WHY they believe the way they do.   In doing so, you can either point out flaws in their reasoning or maybe come to another way of thinking yourself.

We as a society only solve problems by discourse and debate, so I'm all for that - but when it degenerates into personal attacks, then at that point, the discussion is meaningless even if the other person takes no offense.

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
My grandmother (who always gave good advice) tole me:

Never Argue with a Crazy Person . . . Passersby will not know the difference  . . .

JOE (in your role as moderator)

I'd like to respectfully suggest, that while this recent experiment might have had noble intentions, I'd suggest that it hasn't gone AT ALL as planned.

I understand the idea of encouraging wide open debate, trying to understand each other and, hopefully, change minds in the process.  But instead we've ended up giving a respectful platform to the world's craziest, ugliest, and often very dangerous, conspiracy theories.

Along the way, those who have made direct attacks on some of the crazier posts have been brigged, and we've tried the "respectful" approach questioning and getting to understand other's views.  In many ways, giving credibility to some extremist views.

But did you, or anyone else, really expect that it would instead turn into a place to promote that "there is no pandemic", that "people are not getting sick due to Covid", that all those people "did not die of Covid", that it's a "world wide conspiracy", suggestions that doctors and nurses are killing people by putting them on ventilators (presumably because the hospitals are given a "30K Bonus" to do so), etc, etc, etc?

Again, I would like to respectfully suggest that this thread does serve an important purpose (when used well).  And that allowing for more debate is great.

But the complete "free for all" promoting absolutely anything, regardless of how dangerous it is (as long as there are no direct insults used), might need revisiting / fine tuning.

Hopefully there is a level somewhere in between, where actively repeating and promoting the world's most extreme (and ugliest) conspiracy theories, reaches a level which is "a step too far".

We've honestly tried hard to do this latest experiment along the lines of your suggested approach.   Again, I'd suggest that while the intentions of promoting discussion and a better understanding might be laudable, I don't think anyone (including you) expected things would get this "bat shit crazy".

Again, I would suggest that with a little bit of ongoing "fine tuning" this thread could still be quite useful once again.   Just not in it's current mode of accidentally promoting the wildest and ugliest conspiracy theories possible.  All while doing so in a "polite", "attempt at rational discussion" mode.

I hope you'll seriously consider doing some "fine tuning" considering the results of this recent experiment.

Something to think about.  At least that's my sincere hope...!

rfordphotos wrote:

Just a little perspective on the book Globefunseekers is "selling"---

This is a summarized version of a review in the book's Amazon listing... judge for yourself:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++


"Joan Edelstein
2.0 out of 5 stars
Reviewed by a Professor of Nursing

Reviewed in the United States on August 29, 2020

Verified Purchase

There is no doubt that mistakes were made when New York City was the epicenter of the Coronavirus pandemic. The country was not prepared for a pandemic any more than Italy was prepared, as we all watched people dying in care facilities and at home during the surge in Italy. We know, for example, there have been terrible racial disparities. At the same time, nursing must be evidence-based, as should a book about care of patients. This is essential for credibility. Nowhere in this book are any references provided to back anything other than anecdotal claims.

This book starts with a 50 page preface by JB Handley, an anti-vaccine friend of Erin's (as is her lawyer, Kevin Barry). Handley, a private-equity entrepreneur in private consumer companies, is not an expert on health care or COVID. [...]

Chapter 1 is a compelling memoir about Erin’s unhappy childhood with many photos. While this is relevant to ultimately working in nursing, it’s unclear how this is related to her description of events at Elmhurst.

Chapter 2 is about Erin’s unhappy time in the military, where the government lied. As a veteran of the Vietnam Era, I have to say I found her description of how she was treated as an enlisted person to be very believable. I can't speak to her experiences in Iraq.

Chapter 3 is all about how Erin became anti-vaccine “I'm not an anti-vaxxer, I'm an ex-vaxxer." touting her AV activism. In a chapter devoted to anti-vaccine activism, her "everything is about profits" theme that informs her NYC 'expose' is presented. She also later doesn't see how her anti-vaccine activism is relevant. The fact the she spent an entire chapter in the same book on that activism makes it relevant.

Chapter 4 finally brings us to NYC, halfway through the book. Erin went with an agenda, bragging about bringing spyglasses, for $10,000/week. As Erin often says, follow the money. Reading her descriptions makes it clear that Erin does not understand nursing education, medical education, COVID-19, NYC, chain of command, or HIPAA. Examples:

Nursing education: Erin touts her experience as a Certified Nursing Assistant (CNA), and explains the typical way to become a nurse is CNA->LPN->ADN->BSN (p152). It's not. She provides no evidence to support this theory. [...] "Most good nurses start out as CNAs," (p151) "That's where it all begins for most nurses" (p152) - neither is true - and then counts her CNA experience as nursing, which it's not, saying she has 18 years of experience (p269) when she has 3 years experience as a Registered Nurse. Erin became a Practical Nurse in 2014 and was not a registered nurse until 2017.

Medical education: "Most interns and residents have never even been at a patient's bedside before, never set foot into a patient's room-not to mention, they've never done so during a pandemic." Interns and residents have, indeed, worked with patients. Medical students start clinical rotations in their 3rd or 4th year, though many programs are starting in the first year. Erin never set foot into a patient's room during a pandemic before arriving at Elmhurst, either. She refers to interns, residents, and actual doctors, clearly not understanding that interns and residents ARE actual doctors.

[...]

Chain of command: I have to question why Erin hasn't complained to an appropriate agency. The Joint Commission on Accreditation of Hospitals takes complaints seriously, as do Boards of Registered Nursing and Medical Boards. Those would be the appropriate agencies for filing complaints, where HIPAA protections for whistleblowers would apply, and real action to fix what Erin views as problems could be taken.

Erin describes advocating for patients by trying to convince treating physicians to use Vitamin C, and touts zinc with hydroxychloroquine. I've watched the interview of her with the recorded conversation with an incredibly patient doctor. In the book, she refers to the doctor in Texas as using them successfully. That doctor is the same conspiracy theorist who believes in alien DNA and women's diseases are caused by sex with demons in dreams. {{{{edit to add: Dr. Stella Immanuel }}}}}}

On page 145, Erin describes PPE use when she took care of Ebola patients. The US had a total of 11 cases of Ebola in 2014, the year Erin was first licensed as an LPN in Wisconsin, where there were no cases of Ebola and an LPN would not have been in that ICU.. At the same time, she publicly posted a picture of herself working at Elmhurst in inappropriate PPE, including a mask with lips (photo included).

[...]

One might argue Erin has tapes that prove her accusations. These have been the basis of HIPAA violation complaints against her. Like many anti-vaccine activists, much is taken out of context and/or misinterpreted. Nurse and doctor colleagues have had no opportunity to share their views, which may well be different and supported by documented fact. [...]

Most of Erin's premises can be debunked. As she herself notes, none of the people she worked with have had the opportunity to fact check or refute her claims.

This is ultimately a book written by a conspiracy theorist paid $10,000/week plus expenses who intended to show the world how incompetent her fellow professionals were.

She accused them, the hospital, and the governor of murder in order to increase her fame. While I was biased going in, I tried to read it with an open mind. Nonetheless, I was appalled at the lack of knowledge, ethics, and professionalism. In addition, Erin clearly didn't have an editor, which was badly needed. This is a fail on professionalism, ethics, and credibility."

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

ohhh, look, it's another fact check from our resident fact checker, who instead of finding facts finds hit pieces against the person with the facts.  Interesting that in doing that provided the FACT that she had proof of her claims in the form of footage that she secretly recorded in the hospital, that yeah was a HIPPA violation and she got fired, but was still proof that it was happening,

LightDreams wrote:
JOE (in your role as moderator)

I'd like to respectfully suggest, that while this recent experiment might have had noble intentions, I'd suggest that it hasn't gone AT ALL as planned.

I understand the idea of encouraging wide open debate, trying to understand each other and, hopefully, change minds in the process.  But instead we've ended up giving a respectful platform to the world's craziest, ugliest, and often very dangerous, conspiracy theories.

Along the way, those who have made direct attacks on some of the crazier posts have been brigged, and we've tried the "respectful" approach questioning and getting to understand other's views.  In many ways, giving credibility to some extremist views.

But did you, or anyone else, really expect that it would instead turn into a place to promote that "there is no pandemic", that "people are not getting sick due to Covid", that all those people "did not die of Covid", that it's a "world wide conspiracy", suggestions that doctors and nurses are killing people by putting them on ventilators (presumably because the hospitals are given a "30K Bonus" to do so), etc, etc, etc?

Oh, trust me, I've considered all that - not that I am the final MM authority in charge here or anything. 

Here's my take on it:

If I were to - as a moderator - start removing posts that I don't agree with personally, and start effectively taking sides, that would be about as reprehensible as anything else we might do.    So long as people here are not advocating things that are unquestionably dangerous - drinking bleach, say - it's not only not breaking any rules, but how does one fairly tell another person that their views are not valid?   Now, someone might say that the only way to cure COVID is to paste feathers to one's head and make duck noises, and I would vehemently disagree - and would certainly question that person's intelligence (to myself), but they have a right to believe it.   While private sites are not covered by the First Amendment to the US Constitution and we have an international audience here, I still like to apply its principle to moderation.   Or, as has been said before, "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."   I obviously have my own personal views on this topic, but I cannot let them influence how I moderate the forums, any more than I should let my personal taste for, say, nudity impact how I moderate images.   I think we can all agree that this is how it should be.

Of course, if something violates the forum rules - personal attacks, imminently dangerous content, etc - we will of course address it.   Let us know about it if you see it first.


That being said, allow me to quote something I said on another post:

Might I suggest that given how important of an issue this is that everyone consider learning at least the basics of infection and the mechanics of it before you opine on the need (or lack thereof) for vaccination, masks, social distancing, etc.

There's a LOT you don't understand by simply listening to the media, government officials, etc.   A LOT of gray area to be understood, and a lot of it contingent on specific circumstances and variables that cannot be determined in advance.

I get the sense that a lot of people in this thread have no idea what an antigen is, what a receptor is, what the implications of spike protein variations are, and frankly, lacking an understanding of these and more are hindering your ability to truly understand things.    They aren't impossible concepts to comprehend, but they do require at least a minimal amount of study that any layperson is capable of.

You're basically talking about this like you're discussing proper photographic exposure with no understanding of the exposure triangle and how the aperture, shutter, mirror, sensor/film, and lens work.

LightDreams wrote:

Joe Tomasone wrote:
[...]
Frankly, I think it would be more helpful to try and get the person you don't agree with to expand WHY they believe the way they do.   In doing so, you can either point out flaws in their reasoning or maybe come to another way of thinking yourself.

We as a society only solve problems by discourse and debate, so I'm all for that - but when it degenerates into personal attacks, then at that point, the discussion is meaningless even if the other person takes no offense.

JOE (in your role as moderator)

I'd like to respectfully suggest, that while this recent experiment might have had noble intentions, I'd suggest that it hasn't gone AT ALL as planned.

I understand the idea of encouraging wide open debate, trying to understand each other and, hopefully, change minds in the process.  But instead we've ended up giving a respectful platform to the world's craziest, ugliest, and often very dangerous, conspiracy theories.

Along the way, those who have made direct attacks on some of the crazier posts have been brigged, and we've tried the "respectful" approach questioning and getting to understand other's views.  In many ways, giving credibility to some extremist views.

But did you, or anyone else, really expect that it would instead turn into a place to promote that "there is no pandemic", that "people are not getting sick due to Covid", that all those people "did not die of Covid", that it's a "world wide conspiracy", suggestions that doctors and nurses are killing people by putting them on ventilators (presumably because the hospitals are given a "30K Bonus" to do so), etc, etc, etc?

Again, I would like to respectfully suggest that this thread does serve an important purpose (when used well).  And that allowing for more debate is great.

But the complete "free for all" promoting absolutely anything, regardless of how dangerous it is (as long as there are no direct insults used), might need revisiting / fine tuning.

Hopefully there is a level somewhere in between, where actively repeating and promoting the world's most extreme (and ugliest) conspiracy theories, reaches a level which is "a step too far".

We've honestly tried hard to do this latest experiment along the lines of your suggested approach.   Again, I'd suggest that while the intentions of promoting discussion and a better understanding might be laudable, I don't think anyone (including you) expected things would get this "bat shit crazy".

Again, I would suggest that with a little bit of ongoing "fine tuning" this thread could still be quite useful once again.   Just not in it's current mode of accidentally promoting the wildest and ugliest conspiracy theories possible.  All while doing so in a "polite", "attempt at rational discussion" mode.

I hope you'll seriously consider doing some "fine tuning" considering the results of this recent experiment.

Something to think about.  At least that's my sincere hope...!

Yes, in other words, let's shut him up, we don't trust people to think for themselves, we were so happy with having near 2 years of just saying what we believed and having nobody present a contrary narrative.  How dare people question what CNN tells us is the truth.  hahahahahaha.  Can't make this shit up.

Joe Tomasone wrote:

LightDreams wrote:
JOE (in your role as moderator)

I'd like to respectfully suggest, that while this recent experiment might have had noble intentions, I'd suggest that it hasn't gone AT ALL as planned.

I understand the idea of encouraging wide open debate, trying to understand each other and, hopefully, change minds in the process.  But instead we've ended up giving a respectful platform to the world's craziest, ugliest, and often very dangerous, conspiracy theories.

Along the way, those who have made direct attacks on some of the crazier posts have been brigged, and we've tried the "respectful" approach questioning and getting to understand other's views.  In many ways, giving credibility to some extremist views.

But did you, or anyone else, really expect that it would instead turn into a place to promote that "there is no pandemic", that "people are not getting sick due to Covid", that all those people "did not die of Covid", that it's a "world wide conspiracy", suggestions that doctors and nurses are killing people by putting them on ventilators (presumably because the hospitals are given a "30K Bonus" to do so), etc, etc, etc?

Oh, trust me, I've considered all that - not that I am the final MM authority in charge here or anything. 

Here's my take on it:

If I were to - as a moderator - start removing posts that I don't agree with personally, and start effectively taking sides, that would be about as reprehensible as anything else we might do.    So long as people here are not advocating things that are unquestionably dangerous - drinking bleach, say - it's not only not breaking any rules, but how does one fairly tell another person that their views are not valid?   Now, someone might say that the only way to cure COVID is to paste feathers to one's head and make duck noises, and I would vehemently disagree - and would certainly question that person's intelligence (to myself), but they have a right to believe it.   While private sites are not covered by the First Amendment to the US Constitution and we have an international audience here, I still like to apply its principle to moderation.   Or, as has been said before, "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."   I obviously have my own personal views on this topic, but I cannot let them influence how I moderate the forums, any more than I should let my personal taste for, say, nudity impact how I moderate images.   I think we can all agree that this is how it should be.

Of course, if something violates the forum rules - personal attacks, imminently dangerous content, etc - we will of course address it.   Let us know about it if you see it first.


That being said, allow me to quote something I said on another post:

I'd personally like to know your view of it, and that's great advice.

Globefunseekers wrote:
I'd personally like to know your view of it, and that's great advice.

Well, that's kinda wordy.  Here's the core points.  I will be happy to expand or defend them if and as needed.


1. COVID is a legitimate threat to public health, and by extension a threat to the economies of countries that are not able to control it due to loss of productivity of infected workers and those required to quarantine.   

2. As a new coronavirus, there's much we don't know about it.  As a coronavirus in general, there's a lot we know about it.  That's paradoxical, but also very true.   Gets back to understanding viruses and infectious diseases in general.    For example, it is related to the original SARS virus, but just as two cousins can look and act differently, so too do SARS and SARS-CoV-2.  That's why the vaccine for SARS was able to be rapidly adapted to SARS-CoV-2, but why it took time to understand the characteristics of CoV-2 in terms of virulence, transmissibility, etc.

3. If you are in good health, in all likelihood COVID will not kill you.  But if might kill someone you infect.  You may be contagious without being initially symptomatic, which is why there is such a concern about not infecting others.  You could survive, but infect an elderly person who dies. 

3a. Survival is not the end of the story.   Long COVID has decimated the quality of life for LOTS of people.   Athletes can no longer run.   People can no longer hold their former job due to fatigue.   All kinds of weird anomalies have beset people with long COVID.  Even merely not regaining your senses of smell and taste can horribly alter your appetite and cause related health issues.

4.  In learning more and more about -CoV-2, different (and differing) measures were communicated to the public about ways to prevent infection, many either simultaneously (depending on the source) or later contradicting each other.  This is the absolute norm for government and the media (Governmental types who get spoon-fed public-digestible sound bites and gack them up, given to media types with no training to understand them who further gack them up).   As someone who has tried to explain technical topics in media interviews only to have them totally botched on-air, I know how that can happen.   This is why being able to understand the scientists who are explaining things in medical terms are your best source of information that you can interpret and act upon.     Such knowledge helps greatly when exploring the efficacy of masks, for example.   That's a subject I could go into for quite some time, incidentally.   

Science makes progress, and as new discoveries about COVID are made, the recommendations will naturally be altered to reflect the latest information available.   And now with the specter of multiple variants, those recommendations are more of a fluid, moving target than a fixed set of rules.   At first, it was thought that fomites (particles on surfaces) were a more serious transmission vector than they ultimately turned out to be.   In the beginning, I was irradiating a lot of things with UV-C light to kill them.  Now, that has been proven to be unnecessary based on extensive testing of the virus, so I have ceased doing so.  (Anyone want to buy a large UV-C disinfection box?).   

5. "The vaccine was rushed.".   Well, YEAH, it was rushed - people were and are DYING.   But it's not like it was created from scratch.  As mentioned, they started with the time-tested SARS vaccine and modified it for -CoV-2.   That's nowhere's near as time-consuming and doesn't require the same testing to prove safety as a totally new vaccine would.    I get a kick out of people who simultaneously say the vaccine was rushed into approval "too fast" yet praise Trump for "Operation Warp Speed" in getting he vaccine developed for which he deserves credit.  Which is it?     Trump may not be the brightest bulb, but cutting the normal red tape at the FDA and his other actions to get the vaccines developed quickly was absolutely the right thing to do - as well as trying to get more ventilators out, botched though that was.

6.  When you learn about infectious respiratory disease transmission, you come upon one inescapable conclusion - that the riskiest circumstances are where large number of people are indoors with poor ventilation.   Your least amount of risk is outside with no one near you at all and a nice breeze blowing.   Going between these extremes raises or lowers your risk accordingly and increasingly requires more and more stringent attention to mitigation measures such as vaccination and masks. 

7.  "If you are scared, stay home".   I'm not SCARED, although perhaps I should be.   I am diabetic, and those with diabetes don't fare too well with Alpha and Delta.   I haven't seen any data on how we fare with Omicron yet, but in theory somewhat better.   I'm also on ACE inhibitors and have type A+ blood, and if you don't know why that matters, then you have no right to criticize anyone for their choices, because you don't understand the science.   So I am almost as high risk as someone can be, and yet I still go out to eat, I still visit people, and I've even been to the movies a few times.   HOWEVER, I do so as prudently as possible.   First, I am vaccinated and boosted.  I am masked up any time I am indoors in public except when actively eating.   I do not stay indoors in public any longer than is necessary.   I've passed on seeing a movie when the theater was too full for my liking.   I'll ask to be seated away from other patrons.   And when the numbers in my area get higher, I tighten the screws down on these measures.   I consider my approach to be "informed risk management" - a concept fostered on me by some time spent in emergency management circles.   So from a "what camp are you in" perspective, I am a fluid but middle-of-the-road person.  I mitigate risk as much as possible with the expectation that I can never eliminate it.   However, I have a defense-in-depth strategy that has kept COVID out of my house, though we have had a few scares and one or two self-isolations while awaiting testing due to exposure to an infected person.

So to sum, the science is sound, the objections I've seen to date are almost entirely born from a total lack of understanding of the mechanics involved ("That's not how any of this works!"), and largely that's where misinformation comes from - lack of understanding leading to a lack of ability to refute improper information.    Imagine if someone told you that your underexposure problem was due to the UV filter on your lens - it's blocking the UV light that the camera needs to get the exposure right.   Seems ridiculous, right?  Because you likely understand that a UV filter doesn't block visible light, and therefore can;t affect exposure.   Do you think you could fool someone who was maybe just starting out that this was, in fact, true?   I'm sure you could.   Think about COVID misinformation in that vein, no matter what you believe, and then learn about infectious disease transmission and re-evaluate what you read.   Try reading COVID articles in medical journals like The Lancet instead of watching TV news.   Educate yourself as much on this as you do on your photo gear.

Joe Tomasone wrote:

Well, that's kinda wordy.  Here's the core points.  I will be happy to expand or defend them if and as needed.


1. COVID is a legitimate threat to public health, and by extension a threat to the economies of countries that are not able to control it due to loss of productivity of infected workers and those required to quarantine.   

2. As a new coronavirus, there's much we don't know about it.  As a coronavirus in general, there's a lot we know about it.  That's paradoxical, but also very true.   Gets back to understanding viruses and infectious diseases in general.    For example, it is related to the original SARS virus, but just as two cousins can look and act differently, so too do SARS and SARS-CoV-2.  That's why the vaccine for SARS was able to be rapidly adapted to SARS-CoV-2, but why it took time to understand the characteristics of CoV-2 in terms of virulence, transmissibility, etc.

3. If you are in good health, in all likelihood COVID will not kill you.  But if might kill someone you infect.  You may be contagious without being initially symptomatic, which is why there is such a concern about not infecting others.  You could survive, but infect an elderly person who dies. 

3a. Survival is not the end of the story.   Long COVID has decimated the quality of life for LOTS of people.   Athletes can no longer run.   People can no longer hold their former job due to fatigue.   All kinds of weird anomalies have beset people with long COVID.  Even merely not regaining your senses of smell and taste can horribly alter your appetite and cause related health issues.

4.  In learning more and more about -CoV-2, different (and differing) measures were communicated to the public about ways to prevent infection, many either simultaneously (depending on the source) or later contradicting each other.  This is the absolute norm for government and the media (Governmental types who get spoon-fed public-digestible sound bites and gack them up, given to media types with no training to understand them who further gack them up).   As someone who has tried to explain technical topics in media interviews only to have them totally botched on-air, I know how that can happen.   This is why being able to understand the scientists who are explaining things in medical terms are your best source of information that you can interpret and act upon.     Such knowledge helps greatly when exploring the efficacy of masks, for example.   That's a subject I could go into for quite some time, incidentally.   

Science makes progress, and as new discoveries about COVID are made, the recommendations will naturally be altered to reflect the latest information available.   And now with the specter of multiple variants, those recommendations are more of a fluid, moving target than a fixed set of rules.   At first, it was thought that fomites (particles on surfaces) were a more serious transmission vector than they ultimately turned out to be.   In the beginning, I was irradiating a lot of things with UV-C light to kill them.  Now, that has been proven to be unnecessary based on extensive testing of the virus, so I have ceased doing so.  (Anyone want to buy a large UV-C disinfection box?).   

5. "The vaccine was rushed.".   Well, YEAH, it was rushed - people were and are DYING.   But it's not like it was created from scratch.  As mentioned, they started with the time-tested SARS vaccine and modified it for -CoV-2.   That's nowhere's near as time-consuming and doesn't require the same testing to prove safety as a totally new vaccine would.    I get a kick out of people who simultaneously say the vaccine was rushed into approval "too fast" yet praise Trump for "Operation Warp Speed" in getting he vaccine developed for which he deserves credit.  Which is it?     Trump may not be the brightest bulb, but cutting the normal red tape at the FDA and his other actions to get the vaccines developed quickly was absolutely the right thing to do - as well as trying to get more ventilators out, botched though that was.

6.  When you learn about infectious respiratory disease transmission, you come upon one inescapable conclusion - that the riskiest circumstances are where large number of people are indoors with poor ventilation.   Your least amount of risk is outside with no one near you at all and a nice breeze blowing.   Going between these extremes raises or lowers your risk accordingly and increasingly requires more and more stringent attention to mitigation measures such as vaccination and masks. 

7.  "If you are scared, stay home".   I'm not SCARED, although perhaps I should be.   I am diabetic, and those with diabetes don't fare too well with Alpha and Delta.   I haven't seen any data on how we fare with Omicron yet, but in theory somewhat better.   I'm also on ACE inhibitors and have type A+ blood, and if you don't know why that matters, then you have no right to criticize anyone for their choices, because you don't understand the science.   So I am almost as high risk as someone can be, and yet I still go out to eat, I still visit people, and I've even been to the movies a few times.   HOWEVER, I do so as prudently as possible.   First, I am vaccinated and boosted.  I am masked up any time I am indoors in public except when actively eating.   I do not stay indoors in public any longer than is necessary.   I've passed on seeing a movie when the theater was too full for my liking.   I'll ask to be seated away from other patrons.   And when the numbers in my area get higher, I tighten the screws down on these measures.   I consider my approach to be "informed risk management" - a concept fostered on me by some time spent in emergency management circles.   So from a "what camp are you in" perspective, I am a fluid but middle-of-the-road person.  I mitigate risk as much as possible with the expectation that I can never eliminate it.   However, I have a defense-in-depth strategy that has kept COVID out of my house, though we have had a few scares and one or two self-isolations while awaiting testing due to exposure to an infected person.

So to sum, the science is sound, the objections I've seen to date are almost entirely born from a total lack of understanding of the mechanics involved ("That's not how any of this works!"), and largely that's where misinformation comes from - lack of understanding leading to a lack of ability to refute improper information.    Imagine if someone told you that your underexposure problem was due to the UV filter on your lens - it's blocking the UV light that the camera needs to get the exposure right.   Seems ridiculous, right?  Because you likely understand that a UV filter doesn't block visible light, and therefore can;t affect exposure.   Do you think you could fool someone who was maybe just starting out that this was, in fact, true?   I'm sure you could.   Think about COVID misinformation in that vein, no matter what you believe, and then learn about infectious disease transmission and re-evaluate what you read.   Try reading COVID articles in medical journals like The Lancet instead of watching TV news.   Educate yourself as much on this as you do on your photo gear.

This is very good information, I'm aware of the science. I've been following Dr. Peter McCullough since he was seen testifying and defending early treatment options that were being suppressed.  He goes over most of it during a recent interview on the Joe Rogan show, https://rumble.com/vqx8ma-dr-peter-mccu … -1747.html  He goes into what you mention in part 4, and I've been using a preventive measure that he suggests, which is a betadine solution you can spray in your nose and gargle after you been around large groups.  I think he calls it, oral nasal viral therapy, or something like it.  Not suggesting you use it, you seem to be doing just fine with your own measures, my point is I think the political aspect of it all is actually what made everything worse, and the virus became sidetracked, which is why they never promoted treatments, plenty of which were working. 

I also believe the virus peaked in 2020 and has since dropped and for the most part disappeared, this is where me and you might disagree, you believe it's still circulating, I think the mass protests in 2020 caused the virus to infect the vast majority of people who weren't much at risk from it and herd immunity was achieved, what's left is just the political aspect of it and profiteering.

Globefunseekers wrote:
This is very good information, I'm aware of the science. I've been following Dr. Peter McCullough since he was seen testifying and defending early treatment options that were being suppressed.  He goes over most of it during a recent interview on the Joe Rogan show, https://rumble.com/vqx8ma-dr-peter-mccu … -1747.html  He goes into what you mention in part 4, and I've been using a preventive measure that he suggests, which is a betadine solution you can spray in your nose and gargle after you been around large groups.  I think he calls it, oral nasal viral therapy, or something like it.  Not suggesting you use it, you seem to be doing just fine with your own measures, my point is I think the political aspect of it all is actually what made everything worse, and the virus became sidetracked, which is why they never promoted treatments, plenty of which were working. 

I also believe the virus peaked in 2020 and has since dropped and for the most part disappeared, this is where me and you might disagree, you believe it's still circulating, I think the mass protests in 2020 caused the virus to infect the vast majority of people who weren't much at risk from it and herd immunity was achieved, what's left is just the political aspect of it and profiteering.

I will say this- Globefunseekers is consistent. He can pick the medical outlier, the discredited, the charlatan in any crowd. No conspiracy theory is too far out for him....

Globefunseekers- just for you----
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Lawsuit: Doc Using Old Baylor Affiliation While Dishing COVID Vax Falsehoods

— Baylor Scott & White Health says Peter McCullough, MD, used former title during media interviews

----  https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-re … ives/93936

Baylor Scott & White Health sued former employee and cardiologist Peter McCullough, MD, last week, alleging that he illegitimately affiliated himself with its facilities when promoting controversial views about COVID-19

[...]

In several media interviews, McCullough has spread misinformation about COVID-19 vaccines and treatments. He has claimed that there is no scientific reason for healthy people under 50 and those who have recovered from COVID to get the vaccine, and has asserted that 50,000 Americans have died from the shots

McCullough has also come under fire for promoting the use of hydroxychloroquine to treat COVID-19. A group of clinicians from Doctors for America, a nonprofit physician organization, wrote in the Dallas Morning News last December that they were "deeply concerned after hearing the baseless, misleading commentary" from McCullough, in which he promoted the use of the antimalarial drug for early outpatient COVID-19 care. Randomized controlled trials have repeatedly shown that hydroxychloroquine is not effective to treat or prevent COVID-19, the physicians said.

Globefunseekers wrote:
I've been using a preventive measure that he suggests, which is a betadine solution you can spray in your nose and gargle after you been around large groups.

Learn about how viruses enter the bloodstream and you will understand why this is not likely to help you. 

Globefunseekers wrote:
the political aspect of it all is actually what made everything worse

Politics usually makes anything worse.

Globefunseekers wrote:
they never promoted treatments, plenty of which were working.

Again, you need to read actual studies and consider their sources and methods.   Take Ivermectin.  Does it kill COVID cells?    Yes, but in doses several times the lethal human dose.   That doesn't help much.   In safe human doses, it doesn't do anything measurable.   However, people grabbed on to a study that concluded that Ivermectin is effective against COVID, while missing the fact that it is effective in vitro, not in humans.

Globefunseekers wrote:
I also believe the virus peaked in 2020 and has since dropped and for the most part disappeared, this is where me and you might disagree, you believe it's still circulating,

The numbers bear this out.  Florida is hitting case numbers 3x their previous highs, for example.

Globefunseekers wrote:
I think the mass protests in 2020 caused the virus to infect the vast majority of people who weren't much at risk from it and herd immunity was achieved, what's left is just the political aspect of it and profiteering.

1. The "mass protests" didn't involve even a sizable fraction of the population of the US, much less the world.

2. Omicron has the ability to evade the protections afforded by previous infections by Alpha and Delta.   (Or, put more scientifically, the specific spike protein mutations cause Omicron to appear as a previously unseen virus to the immune system).   Herd immunity to Omicron doesn't exist.    The only silver lining is that Omicron doesn't appear to be as virulent as it is transmissible.

rfordphotos wrote:

I will say this- Globefunseekers is consistent. He can pick the medical outlier, the discredited, the charlatan in any crowd. No conspiracy theory is too far out for him....

Globefunseekers- just for you----
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Lawsuit: Doc Using Old Baylor Affiliation While Dishing COVID Vax Falsehoods

— Baylor Scott & White Health says Peter McCullough, MD, used former title during media interviews

----  https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-re … ives/93936

Baylor Scott & White Health sued former employee and cardiologist Peter McCullough, MD, last week, alleging that he illegitimately affiliated himself with its facilities when promoting controversial views about COVID-19

[...]

In several media interviews, McCullough has spread misinformation about COVID-19 vaccines and treatments. He has claimed that there is no scientific reason for healthy people under 50 and those who have recovered from COVID to get the vaccine, and has asserted that 50,000 Americans have died from the shots

McCullough has also come under fire for promoting the use of hydroxychloroquine to treat COVID-19. A group of clinicians from Doctors for America, a nonprofit physician organization, wrote in the Dallas Morning News last December that they were "deeply concerned after hearing the baseless, misleading commentary" from McCullough, in which he promoted the use of the antimalarial drug for early outpatient COVID-19 care. Randomized controlled trials have repeatedly shown that hydroxychloroquine is not effective to treat or prevent COVID-19, the physicians said.

Thank you so much fact checker, for once again telling anyone without a brain to not go look at what the man says but believe instead what is written about him.  We should all have a fact checker like you around to tell us what is ok to look at, thank god for CNN showing you what's real, how would you ever go through life otherwise.  Thanks again.

Globefunseekers wrote:
Thank you so much fact checker, for once again telling anyone without a brain to not go look at what the man says but believe instead what is written about him.  We should all have a fact checker like you around to tell us what is ok to look at, thank god for CNN showing you what's real, how would you ever go through life otherwise.  Thanks again.

Of course you are quite welcome Globefunseekers- you go right ahead posting your charlatans and mythological treatments, and I will continue to post proven medical science.

Joe Tomasone wrote:

Globefunseekers wrote:
I've been using a preventive measure that he suggests, which is a betadine solution you can spray in your nose and gargle after you been around large groups.

Learn about how viruses enter the bloodstream and you will understand why this is not likely to help you. 

Globefunseekers wrote:
the political aspect of it all is actually what made everything worse

Politics usually makes anything worse.

Globefunseekers wrote:
they never promoted treatments, plenty of which were working.

Again, you need to read actual studies and consider their sources and methods.   Take Ivermectin.  Does it kill COVID cells?    Yes, but in doses several times the lethal human dose.   That doesn't help much.   In safe human doses, it doesn't do anything measurable.   However, people grabbed on to a study that concluded that Ivermectin is effective against COVID, while missing the fact that it is effective in vitro, not in humans.

Globefunseekers wrote:
I also believe the virus peaked in 2020 and has since dropped and for the most part disappeared, this is where me and you might disagree, you believe it's still circulating,

The numbers bear this out.  Florida is hitting case numbers 3x their previous highs, for example.



1. The "mass protests" didn't involve even a sizable fraction of the population of the US, much less the world.

2. Omicron has the ability to evade the protections afforded by previous infections by Alpha and Delta.   (Or, put more scientifically, the specific spike protein mutations cause Omicron to appear as a previously unseen virus to the immune system).   Herd immunity to Omicron doesn't exist.    The only silver lining is that Omicron doesn't appear to be as virulent as it is transmissible.

Different virus infect differently, this one as I understood the science was a respitory one, and entered through nose, mouth, eyes possibly, but lowering the viral load would allowed your body's own defenses to deal with the rest.  Again, I'm listening to this doctor who may well be wrong, I'm not a doctor, this is not medical advice.  I believe him, that's just me.

We seem to agree on politics.

Again, I'm not a doctor but also disagree on Ivermectin, as an early treatment, seems most places that didn't suppress it, including Japan now, it's been very effective.  But I can't confirm that, I didn't take it, yet.

Far as I can tell from all the officials the Omicron has become the common cold, it has all the exact same symptoms, no longer seems to give people severe respitory problems, even the odd food taste is no longer a symptom.  Now from what I understand even the Biden task force has said, "everyone is going to get it"  Vaccinated, unvaccinated doesn't matter anymore, but so did the common cold before everyone gets a cold sooner or later, mild, severe, everyone. 

My point mostly is that it's time to start ending the need for mandates and restrictions, it no longer really matters what anyone believes, the science being promoted or the science being attacked, or even the conspiracy theories, it doesn't actually matter any more if everyone will get it and it's equal now to the common cold it's over.

rfordphotos wrote:
Another bit of poorly researched internet mythology, promoting an ineffective method of avoiding Covid 19. I believe misinformation like this is dangerous.

Betadine is not recommended as prophylaxis for Covid 19.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


"Recently, Betadine's manufacturer, Avrio Health, also published a statement on its website warning customers against using Betadine to prevent COVID-19: "Betadine Antiseptic Sore Throat Gargle is only for the temporary relief of occasional sore throat," the statement reads. "Betadine Antiseptic products have not been demonstrated to be effective for the treatment or prevention of COVID-19 or any other viruses."
----  https://www.health.com/condition/infect … wash-covid

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A clinical study of using Betdine nasal spray to prevent Covid 19 published by the US Govt at :

National Library of Medicine
National Center for Biotechnology Information
----  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34724213/


The Effect of Povidone-Iodine Nasal Spray on Nasopharyngeal SARS-CoV-2 Viral Load: A Randomized Control Trial

David Zarabanda, Neelaysh Vukkadala, Katie M Phillips, Z Jason Qian, Kenji O Mfuh, Matthew J Hatter, Ivan T Lee, Vidya K Rao, Peter H Hwang, George Domb, Zara M Patel, Benjamin A Pinsky, Jayakar V Nayak

Free PMC article

Abstract

Objectives/hypothesis: To determine the effect of povidone-iodine (PVP-I) nasal sprays on nasopharyngeal (NP) viral load as assessed by cycle threshold (Ct) on quantitative polymerase chain reaction (qPCR) of SARS-CoV-2 in outpatients.

Study design: Three arm, triple blinded, randomized, placebo-controlled clinical trial.

Methods: Participants were randomized within 5 days of testing positive for COVID-19 to receive nasal sprays containing placebo (0.9% saline), 0.5% PVP-I, or 2.0% PVP-I. NP swabs for qPCR analysis were taken at baseline, 1-hour post-PVP-I spray (two sprays/nostril), and 3 days post-PVP-I spray (20 sprays/nostril). Symptom and adverse event questionnaires were completed at baseline, day 3, and day 5. University of Pennsylvania Smell Identification Tests (UPSIT) were completed at baseline and day 30.

Results: Mean Ct values increased over time in all groups, indicating declining viral loads, with no statistically significant difference noted in the rate of change between placebo and PVP-I groups. The 2.0% PVP-I group showed statistically significant improvement in all symptom categories; however, it also reported a high rate of nasal burning. Olfaction via UPSIT showed improvement by at least one category in all groups. There were no hospitalizations or mortalities within 30 days of study enrollment.


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Conclusions: Saline and low concentration PVP-I nasal sprays are well tolerated. Similar reductions in SARS-CoV-2 NP viral load were seen over time in all groups. All treatment groups showed improvement in olfaction over 30 days. These data suggest that dilute versions of PVP-I nasal spray are safe for topical use in the nasal cavity, but that PVP-I does not demonstrate virucidal activity in COVID-19 positive outpatients.


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See, now this is why I tell people to go listen to the actual Dr. not something written about him,

Go read again what I said.  Your fake study used it on ALREADY positive cases, I clearly said, as the Dr. said, you should use it as a PREVENTION method, before becoming a positive case, that's what preventive measure means.  :Once it's in your blood stream you need a different treatment, which are also available.  But I'm not a Dr. so consult your own Dr. this is NOT medical advice, but it's also not the obvious misinformation that you're promoting.