rfordphotos wrote:
Are you still trying  to say Trump did a good job? Still trying to say he showed even a hint of competency?

ethasleftthebuilding wrote:
I'm curious what you believe Trump, or any President, was supposed to have done in this situation?

[...].

I wont bore the rest of the forum with a long list.

First and foremost, Trump, or any real leader, should acknowledge and act on the information and guidance of the actual, trained, educated experts in the field, not two right wing shock-radio college dropouts, and his voodoo gut instincts.

but science and education wont win in the Trump WH.

ethasleftthebuilding wrote:

I'm curious what you believe Trump, or any President, was supposed to have done in this situation?

The states seem to hold the Constitutionally questionable authority to shut things down and issue stay at home orders, not the President or the Federal Government.

I could simply return a question to your question. What did Trump do right? Further, exactly when has Trump told the truth?
It would be interesting to hear your answers. Meanwhile...

If the state's authority is Constitutionally questionable, why do you feel that lets the President off the hook? That truly makes zero sense, period.

Trump invoked the authority to sort of feebly regulate travel to our country from some people (but not all) who came from Chine. Meanwhile, the pandemic was raging in Italy and many flew from there and other places in Europe to our country during that same time. Does Trump have that authority to stop travel or is that Constitutionally questionable as well?

Which of course begs the question - who does have that authority? Trump invoked it but very weakly and very poorly, is he exempt from failing becasue he does not have the "Constitutionally questionable authority" to do so?

Trump also dismissed the seriousness of the pandemic early on, at the minimum he could have been a uniter, a force for dispensing actual and valid information instead of claiming that we only had one infected person in our country and they would be fine. He continued to dismiss the pandemic, telling the country that it would "go away" in the Spring.

If wishes were fishes...

He further promoted the use of a drug that does not work, authorized the purchase of a substantial stash of it (which apparently he has now given to Brazil) and continues to promote this drug, even though tests show consistently it does not provide a remedy.

Watching him bumble along spouting nonsense about bleach and internal ultra-violet, how does that help? Is the "Leader of the Free World" supoosed to diseminate absurd nonsense and rage if others observe that he is in fact, not leading and further - truly has no idea whatsoever what he is taling about?

So, again, what has Donald Trump done right?

Focuspuller wrote:
But kudos for reminding what a a bankrupt and absurd philosophy extreme libertarianism really is.

It isn't really "extreme libertarinaism", REAL Libertarians live in Somalia - land of the free. Unencumbered by government, they are free to take what ever they want, when they want, because they feel like it. Unless somebody kills them, that is the price one pays for freedom, after all.

In our country, we have Socialist Libertarians. They expect good roads everywhere (socialism), they want to be able to call the fire department when their house catches on fire and not have to negotiate with a private, for-profit company while their house burns down (socialism), they want police protection, etc. etc. etc.

It is simply pseudo-libertarianism of convenience and nothing more...

FIFTYONE PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
200,000 Covid deaths in the U.S. was an early predicament quickly struck down,  I'm seeing it now as possibly a realistic number.

be safe

My crystal ball is as cloudy as anyone else's.... but sadly 200,000 deaths is probably a very easy number to reach.

as of yesterday, they increased the expected deaths to almost 170,000 by October of this year.

169,890  COVID-19 US deaths
projected by October 1, 2020
----   https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america

If the vaccine is still 12-18 months out, and we dont come up with a much more effective treatment regime 200,000 looks easy. Depending on what happens with infection rates after we return to work, I have seen estimates that ran as high as 325,000 by the end of 2021.

It all depends on how quickly we figure out how to "live" with the virus. We have to establish the new "normal", whatever that turns out to mean. The virus doesnt seem to be likely to just go away.

rfordphotos wrote:
[...]
as of yesterday, they increased the expected deaths to almost 170,000 by October of this year.

169,890  COVID-19 US deaths
projected by October 1, 2020
----   https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america
[...]

People who may see the numbers drop during the summer shouldn't mistakenly take that to mean that these forecasts are wrong.  In fact, they predict a drop during the summer before shooting up dramatically in the fall.

"(CNN) An influential model cited by the White House issued the dire prediction, saying the US death toll could reach 169,890 by October 1, with a possible range of about 133,000 to 290,000 deaths.

Daily deaths are expected to decrease through June and July, then remain relatively stable through August before rising sharply in September, the model forecasts."

Now if you see the numbers actually increase during the summer, then the 170,000 deaths by October 1st model prediction, is likely to be WAY low...

Shadow Dancer wrote:
I could simply  ---snip---  done right?

Here is what I said again...


I'm curious what you believe Trump, or any President, was supposed to have done in this situation?

The states seem to hold the Constitutionally questionable authority to shut things down and issue stay at home orders, not the President or the Federal Government.

The NIH and CDC have not shown much ability to guess at much of anything or stick to a plan for very long.

The fact of the matter is that the Federal Government is not going to save you, it's cannot save you.  I doubt no more than a hand full of politicians in DC honestly give a shit about me or you, if that many.

In my opinion, it is the Federal Governments role to give advice, based on the best information they have and to offer assistance to state and local governments in time of disaster.  It is the state and local governments job to assist the people.  Personally, I believe the state and local government overstepped their authority when they chose "winners and losers" by closing (ruining) some businesses while allowing others to remain open.


I'm not certain if you only read the first couple of lines and then replied or you just read all sorts of things into what I said...or mabye you just picked me to argue with.  In any case, here it is again (above) .  Thank You.

ethasleftthebuilding wrote:
Here is what I said again...
[...]

Wow.  I have no idea if how you describe the system is in any way accurate.  But if that truly IS the case, then no wonder the U.S. (with 4.25% of the world's population), despite all of it's advanced technology and standard of living, has the highest number of COVID-19 deaths in the entire world (with 27% of the world's COVID-19 deaths).

You're describing a system that has been designed to completely fail.  Okay, as far as COVID-19 goes, the numbers do seem to demonstrate exactly that.  But was it truly designed to be that way?  The philosophy sounds suspiciously like the Federal Gov't has no responsibility to protect its citizens or the country...

ethasleftthebuilding wrote:

Here is what I said again...


I'm curious what you believe Trump, or any President, was supposed to have done in this situation?

The states seem to hold the Constitutionally questionable authority to shut things down and issue stay at home orders, not the President or the Federal Government.

The NIH and CDC have not shown much ability to guess at much of anything or stick to a plan for very long.

The fact of the matter is that the Federal Government is not going to save you, it's cannot save you.  I doubt no more than a hand full of politicians in DC honestly give a shit about me or you, if that many.

In my opinion, it is the Federal Governments role to give advice, based on the best information they have and to offer assistance to state and local governments in time of disaster.  It is the state and local governments job to assist the people.  Personally, I believe the state and local government overstepped their authority when they chose "winners and losers" by closing (ruining) some businesses while allowing others to remain open.


I'm not certain if you only read the first couple of lines and then replied or you just read all sorts of things into what I said...or mabye you just picked me to argue with.  In any case, here it is again (above) .  Thank You.

Repeat it all you want. Does not make your  phantasy libertarian utopia any more  workable, moral. or desirable. Maybe over at Infowars they would be more receptive.

ethasleftthebuilding wrote:

Here is what I said again...


I'm curious what you believe Trump, or any President, was supposed to have done in this situation?

The states seem to hold the Constitutionally questionable authority to shut things down and issue stay at home orders, not the President or the Federal Government.

The NIH and CDC have not shown much ability to guess at much of anything or stick to a plan for very long.

The fact of the matter is that the Federal Government is not going to save you, it's cannot save you.  I doubt no more than a hand full of politicians in DC honestly give a shit about me or you, if that many.

In my opinion, it is the Federal Governments role to give advice, based on the best information they have and to offer assistance to state and local governments in time of disaster.  It is the state and local governments job to assist the people.  Personally, I believe the state and local government overstepped their authority when they chose "winners and losers" by closing (ruining) some businesses while allowing others to remain open.


I'm not certain if you only read the first couple of lines and then replied or you just read all sorts of things into what I said...or mabye you just picked me to argue with.  In any case, here it is again (above) .  Thank You.

You are welcome. I won't repeat my answer, it's above in plain sight. I provided an answer for your question and asked you one. Is that somehow unfair? It doesn't mean we agree on the topic, obviously we do not. So what?

https://covidusa.net
Currently we have  2,023,385 confirmed cases in the US, that is 22,921 more than yesterday. Today we have a total of 113,818 for all deaths from Covid_19.

The virus does not care what you or I think, not at all.

Baanthai wrote:
Scientific Polling Question: If the US Government (Trump) announces a CV19 vaccine in October, will you take it? My answer is that I’d be suspicious and hesitant.

In other vaccine news: Astrazeneca (A major British pharmaceutical company) is now testing their CV19 vaccine on groups in both Britain and Brazil. The CEO says (on a BBC podcast.) that the US gave his company $1 billion dollars to create a vaccine. Bill Gate’s foundation tossed in another billion. Apparently Bill Gates has become a central figure in vaccine development.



[Over the course of this thread, I have watched people attempt to mold this pandemic to their political beliefs. Over the course of this thread, I have watched people fail miserably at it.]

I would also wait.

Baanthai wrote:
Scientific Polling Question: If the US Government (Trump) announces a CV19 vaccine in October, will you take it? My answer is that I’d be suspicious and hesitant.

In other vaccine news: Astrazeneca (A major British pharmaceutical company) is now testing their CV19 vaccine on groups in both Britain and Brazil. The CEO says (on a BBC podcast.) that the US gave his company $1 billion dollars to create a vaccine. Bill Gate’s foundation tossed in another billion. Apparently Bill Gates has become a central figure in vaccine development.



[Over the course of this thread, I have watched people attempt to mold this pandemic to their political beliefs. Over the course of this thread, I have watched people fail miserably at it.]

October?  Warp Speed?

I have never shied away from vaccines. I try to stay current with all my shots... I take the flu shot every year, pneumonia shot when needed etc etc. I shudder to think of some of the shots I got on my way to South East Asia when I was in the service.

But, frankly, because I have come to not trust a word out of this administration, I would probably hesitate.

My situation makes that a bit less risky, I live alone, self isolation is my normal. I dont leave the house except for medical appts these days anyway----- I can wait and see if any of the first inoculations result in developing antlers or something less convenient.

Normally I would trust the process, the science but that has been perverted to political ends, and I have concerns..

Baanthai wrote:
Scientific Polling Question: If the US Government (Trump) announces a CV19 vaccine in October, will you take it? My answer is that I’d be suspicious and hesitant.

In other vaccine news: Astrazeneca (A major British pharmaceutical company) is now testing their CV19 vaccine on groups in both Britain and Brazil. The CEO says (on a BBC podcast.) that the US gave his company $1 billion dollars to create a vaccine. Bill Gate’s foundation tossed in another billion. Apparently Bill Gates has become a central figure in vaccine development.



[Over the course of this thread, I have watched people attempt to mold this pandemic to their political beliefs. Over the course of this thread, I have watched people fail miserably at it.]

I will wait, unless a vaccine comes from Germany or some other country with leadership that has a better track record for integrity that our current Adminstration.

If it takes longer to get it right, so be it. Wrong could mean dead, then no waiting is needed.

Focuspuller wrote:
Just had a disheartening conversation with an old college friend, leaving me angry and sad simultaneously. Did I mention angry?

He had a very successful career at a large financial institution in NYC, now retired but still works as a consultant part-time. He just received a Payroll Protection Act "loan" of $20.000, with minimal if any payback. Says all his (rich) friends have done the same. Easy peasy, through PayPal, submit a few documents, Schedule C, driver license, etc, and it is INSTANTLY credited to your PayPal account. Friend and his friends have NO employees.

I am outraged. but not surprised, really.

But, but, they can invest in the stock market and drive Tesla up, briefly.
How else you gonna build a house of cards? In a consumer-based trickle-up society like ours, the only answer is to give the rich people more of our money so they can donate it to campaigns to re-elect orange people who bribe them.

Logical, tragic, the death toll from Covid_19 continues to rise with no end in sight.

Focuspuller wrote:
Just had a disheartening conversation with an old college friend, leaving me angry and sad simultaneously. Did I mention angry?

He had a very successful career at a large financial institution in NYC, now retired but still works as a consultant part-time. He just received a Payroll Protection Act "loan" of $20.000, with minimal if any payback. Says all his (rich) friends have done the same. Easy peasy, through PayPal, submit a few documents, Schedule C, driver license, etc, and it is INSTANTLY credited to your PayPal account. Friend and his friends have NO employees.

I am outraged. but not surprised, really.

no problem, the Inspector Generals of each involved department will root out those abuses, bring them to the Administration's attention and VOILA no more problem. That's why we have oversight.

oh, wait...

rxz wrote:
I believe in the independence, free spirit, will, and social behavior of the American people.   I feel 200,000 deaths by year end for the SARS-2 virus will be an easy goal to reach.  I also consider the virus an endemic, not pandemic, so the death toll in 2021 and possibly beyond will be interesting.  And the possibility of SARS-2 mutating to SARS-3.  Being in my 70's, my own mortality comes to mind.  I'm not a party and die kind of person.

Having seen the bars/clubs up here re-opening and how the public is behaving - the rumor that a second wave is not coming is absurd. It was politically expedient for Dr. Fauci to disseminate the idea but he did include stipulations that appear to be a fantasy and simple said it was "poosible" there would not be a second wave.

I am (was) a gigging musician. We had a friend peek in at one of the clubs we used to play. Staff did not wear masks or gloves, the owner was sitting at the bar with a group of friends (not allowed). There was no caution on display and this was in the afternoon.

We did play an outdoor gig a week ago, the bartender was the only staff member with a mask or gloves. They tried to keep the party outside but the wait staff was overwhelmed and people started lining up inside. No masks, no gloves, no social distancing, lots of high fives, hugging, hand shaking etc. It was a disturbing view of people going back to their old ways. We kept our distance as possible and hit the sanitizing wipes we brought.

We won't be booking there again, not until this situation is over. Farther south where it is warmer and more clubs have outdoor areas, I expect people to return to life pre-Covid_19. For one thing, alcohol and caution are mutually exclusive.

I fully expect more infection and it is not a "second wave" so much as a continuation of the first wave.
The stadium rallies are bound to be a joy as well. This is not even close to over.

Shadow Dancer wrote:

Having seen the bars/clubs up here re-opening and how the public is behaving - the rumor that a second wave is not coming is absurd. It was politically expedient for Dr. Fauci to disseminate the idea but he did include stipulations that appear to be a fantasy and simple said it was "poosible" there would not be a second wave.

I am (was) a gigging musician. We had a friend peek in at one of the clubs we used to play. Staff did not wear masks or gloves, the owner was sitting at the bar with a group of friends (not allowed). There was no caution on display and this was in the afternoon.

We did play an outdoor gig a week ago, the bartender was the only staff member with a mask or gloves. They tried to keep the party outside but the wait staff was overwhelmed and people started lining up inside. No masks, no gloves, no social distancing, lots of high fives, hugging, hand shaking etc. It was a disturbing view of people going back to their old ways. We kept our distance as possible and hit the sanitizing wipes we brought.

We won't be booking there again, not until this situation is over. Farther south where it is warmer and more clubs have outdoor areas, I expect people to return to life pre-Covid_19. For one thing, alcohol and caution are mutually exclusive.

I fully expect more infection and it is not a "second wave" so much as a continuation of the first wave.
The stadium rallies are bound to be a joy as well. This is not even close to over.

The bars and restaurants opened here this week and the public is behaving.  I went to Applebees this week.
The establishments are setup for social distancing and masks are being used.  Business is slow.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
Business is slow.

And there is the other difficult problem for restaurants/bars. If they adhere to protocol and limit seating it becomes very difficult to run a profitable business. These places have lots of slow times and then make good money when the seats are full and people are buying food and beverages.

As a friend of mine in the business put it "Peak hours pay for weak hours."

If peak hours are weak too due to limited capacity you may go out of business faster by opening. Some establishments up here have closed their doors and others that are trying to re-open may soon find out that they are not going to make it until they can safely pack the place on a regular basis.

Shadow Dancer wrote:
Arkansas is experiencing an increase in Covid_19 cases, up 168% in 14 days.
https://covidusa.net
Currently in the US there are 115,251 deaths.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/sudden-blows … 50586.html

I really dont know what people expected.

The virus has not changed. It is just as contagious as it ever was, just as deadly. There is no vaccine, no herd immunity.

When large numbers of people congregate, people will be infected. When Trump has his rallies, there will be a rise in cases due to those rallies. When the NFL fills a stadium, people will get sick. When people start flying again, filling airplanes, people will get sick.

I really wonder if the country learned ANYTHING watching 2,000,000+ get infected and 115,000 DEAD.

You simply cannot go back to crowded beaches and bars and stadiums and rallies "just like the old days"---- not yet, not until we know how to fight this virus.

If people really didnt learn anything--- the next three months will look a lot like the last three months.

rfordphotos wrote:

I really dont know what people expected.

The virus has not changed. It is just as contagious as it ever was, just as deadly. There is no vaccine, no herd immunity.

When large numbers of people congregate, people will be infected. When Trump has his rallies, there will be a rise in cases due to those rallies. When the NFL fills a stadium, people will get sick. When people start flying again, filling airplanes, people will get sick.

I really wonder if the country learned ANYTHING watching 2,000,000+ get infected and 115,000 DEAD.

You simply cannot go back to crowded beaches and bars and stadiums and rallies "just like the old days"---- not yet, not until we know how to fight this virus.

If people really didnt learn anything--- the next three months will look a lot like the last three months.

I don't see the world going back to an extended lock down if the death rate increases.  Today's world economy will take a while to recover, whatever that means now.  Lots of businesses will never reopen or survive if they try.  Another extended lock down puts the economy in uncharted territory.  People will need to continue to wear masks, wash, and social distance.  Those that don't will get sick, and maybe die.  Worst part is they will also infect and possibly kill family and who knows else.  I see the virus as an endemic.  I don't think most of the people on the planet understand what that means.  And watching recent behavior of some Americans, they don't seem to care.   If the virus ends up taking out up to a billion people, our species will still survive.  Being self centered, I'm hoping I'm not one of them.  Throw in regional unrest and global warming,   scary times.

rxz wrote:
I don't see the world going back to an extended lock down if the death rate increases.  Today's world economy will take a while to recover, whatever that means now.  Lots of businesses will never reopen or survive if they try.  Another extended lock down puts the economy in uncharted territory.  People will need to continue to wear masks, wash, and social distance.  Those that don't will get sick, and maybe die.  Worst part is they will also infect and possibly kill family and who knows else.  I see the virus as an endemic.  I don't think most of the people on the planet understand what that means.  And watching recent behavior of some Americans, they don't seem to care.   If the virus ends up taking out up to a billion people, our species will still survive.  Being self centered, I'm hoping I'm not one of them.  Throw in regional unrest and global warming,   scary times.

I have no answers.

going back to a general lockdown, govt ordered?
---it would meet a lot more resistance from the general public, and compliance would most likely be low.

I have said all along we have to go back to work... but if we "go back" like the folks did Memorial Day weekend, or last weekend in NYC, the hospitals will fill again. It seems pretty likely that we are already seeing that...

I think we could do this smart, and minimize the impact. Open regionally after the infection rate is in decline....Have contact tracing ready regionally before you open....Be ready to isolate groups of "potential" infections before they spread farther...  REQUIRE face masks in public.... Be smart about the businesses you open.... I still cant fathom the need for tattoo parlors right this minute, but hey that is not my call...

Be interesting when schools open. Teachers will likely not fare well, as social distancing is near impossible in those circumstances...

And of course the kids will make a fine "vector" for the virus...moving it very efficiently from one family to another, Mom and Dad will then take it to work...

the virus is exactly as it was. It was serious enough to warrant the first shutdowns... experts say the mitigation did reduce overall deaths... will the "second wave" with less mitigation be more lethal?

dunno

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Groups outside a bar in Manhattan on Friday.Credit...Jeenah Moon/Reuters


Officials in N.Y. and Houston are considering another lockdown.
----  https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/14/worl … dates.html

[...]
On Sunday, Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo said that the state had been deluged with some 25,000 complaints about businesses that “are in violation of the re-opening plan,” a number that he said alarmed and upset him.

“We have never received more complaints in a shorter period of time,” he said, adding that it spoke to some residents’ ongoing concern about infection. “You know why? They are afraid for themselves.”
[...]

Mr. Cuomo is not the only official to warn of a reimposed lockdown in the face of surging cases. Around the country, officials have watched closely as the coronavirus mounts a resurgence.

    In Houston, Texas, officials warned last week that a lockdown might be reimposed as cases continue to tick upward, CBS News reported. The region is now at what officials call “Code Orange,” meaning that there is a significant and uncontrolled level of coronavirus spread in the community.

    On Friday, Jay Butler, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention deputy director for infectious diseases, told reporters that “If cases begin to go up again, particularly if they go up dramatically, it’s important to recognize that more mitigation efforts such as what were implemented back in March may be needed again,” according to CNBC.