Forums > Model Colloquy > Shandra's advice thread.

Model

S. Stark

Posts: 13614

Los Angeles, California, US

I tried a thread like this once before, and it pretty much bombed, but for two reasons, I am opening up questions again:

A) I am writing a guide book for figure models.
B) I just received a very wonderful message from a model asking for my guidance.  Asking me to be a mentor.  This pretty much made my whole year.

The deal: Ask me any serious question you have about being a photographic nude model, or one that poses for art classes.

The catch: I will not answer every question here.  I may skip some, as I am writing a book and don't want to write everything I know in a model mayhem thread.

You may ask me questions about figure modeling in general, or you can ask me questions that relate to a specific problem you have been running into.  Just please ask serious ones.

Non-models may ask as well, of course.

Apr 11 08 11:43 pm Link

Photographer

Mr Banner

Posts: 85322

Hayward, California, US

is there any type of photographer (or any artist) that you find particularly difficult to work with?  And if so, how do you deal with it?

Apr 11 08 11:51 pm Link

Photographer

Mr and Mrs Huber

Posts: 5056

Santa Rosalía, Baja California Sur, Mexico

spread shots.
why or why not?

Apr 11 08 11:56 pm Link

Model

SneakySexy

Posts: 2417

Cleveland, Ohio, US

Do you come up with your own poses, rely on the photographer's vision or both?  If both, what percentage do you come up w/vs the photographer?

Apr 11 08 11:57 pm Link

Photographer

digital Artform

Posts: 49326

Los Angeles, California, US

What should I do if I get a hard on while modeling?

(what?? It's a serious question)

Apr 12 08 12:03 am Link

Photographer

Mr and Mrs Huber

Posts: 5056

Santa Rosalía, Baja California Sur, Mexico

should I expect there to be a place for me to clean up after a shoot?



how do I know who to work with?

Apr 12 08 12:06 am Link

Model

S. Stark

Posts: 13614

Los Angeles, California, US

Damon Banner wrote:
is there any type of photographer (or any artist) that you find particularly difficult to work with?  And if so, how do you deal with it?

On the whole, I think that photographers have the potential to be the most difficult to work with.

Generally speaking, photographers do not go through classes that enable them to know how to treat a model, or to understand the needs of said model.

I have oftentimes gone to a studio that is FRIGID, and when I ask about heat, simply get told "I don't have control over it." Or, "There are so many lights on, you should be warm enough."

When working with traditional artists, students or not, they are prepared.  They don't make excuses for a cold room, they have a heater or two on hand, and I am generally asked about the temperature before I even get on the stand.  Traditional artists will periodically ask you about your comfort, tell you to stretch, or ask you to take a quick snack break while they switch out their tools.  Traditional artists don't usually wait for you to be uncomfortable, they do everything in their power to make sure that never happens in the first place, and you're never rushed.  I find working with traditional artists to be very relaxing, and the atmosphere is always laid back.

This is not always the case with photographers. 

The equipment is expensive, they can think their time is more precious than mine, they can be very caught up in themselves, and forget how important it can be to just smile on occasion.  Bad attitudes can make a model very put off.

Traditional artists are more respectful of needs, and health concerns.  Things like that.

If I were to tell any art school or individual artist that my back was in spasm, they would insist that I stay at home.  If I were to tell almost any photographer, it would be strongly suggested that I show up anyway, and I would be made to feel that canceling, no matter the reason, is the most unprofessional thing on Earth, that if I really cared about their art, I would injure myself further and deal with it after helping them.

I really love that art students are able to see what it is to be considerate.  They get to see their teachers offering us water, getting us pillows, and making sure the sheets they hand us to sit on are clean (okay, not always).  One class even got to see what it was like to have a model pass out and fall off the stand, crashing her head into concrete, and got to see how the teacher reacted.

A lot of photographers never went to school, or have worked with landscape so long they forget that models are human and not inanimate objects.

This doesn't go for everyone, of course.

However, I will say that traditional artists  (schools in general, or individuals) can sometimes be harder to schedule with.

"Can you make it on a Tuesday?  Or how about like a Wednesday or a Monday?  Maybe this week or in like three or five weeks?  Maybe the middle of next month or something?  Let me know!"

Some are so scatterbrained that it takes two months to schedule anything.

Oh, how do I deal with it.

If the room is too cold and I have already mentioned it three or four times, I just shiver and they get to edit out all my goosebumps and awkward faces.  If I am asked a question about my life and then asked not to move my lips (which I find terribly annoying), I simply do not utter a single word until spoken to again.

If someone is overbearing, I will act the opposite...just quietly posing and getting through the day.

If I told to do something I am not comfortable with (make a silly face!!  show me the real you!!!  Uh, well, the real me is not that silly.) I usually am just very honest.  I will express my concerns or limitations.

I am not argumentative; I'll just quietly get through the shoot or session.

Apr 12 08 12:15 am Link

Model

S. Stark

Posts: 13614

Los Angeles, California, US

Photon Mechanic wrote:
spread shots.
why or why not?

This is an absolutely personal choice.

I choose not to do them, because I like having a distinct line between my life, and my life on camera.  I like being able to advertise my skill as an art model, without also having overtly sexual images in my book.

While I love to look at well done erotic nudes, and highly respect the models and photographers that work hard to make the truly fantastic images I have seen, I have chosen to keep my work at R and not X.  I like going into my bedroom or someone else's and knowing that not just everyone in the world gets to see that side of me.

Apr 12 08 12:23 am Link

Model

S. Stark

Posts: 13614

Los Angeles, California, US

SneakySexxy wrote:
Do you come up with your own poses, rely on the photographer's vision or both?  If both, what percentage do you come up w/vs the photographer?

About ninety percent of the time, I am in charge of the poses, either because I am given control, or because I take it.

I never know how I will pose until I am right in the moment, and I have never practiced in a mirror.  I just let my body do what it wants at any given moment.  I do not have a routine.

There are some photographers that have a very specific creative process.

For example, working with T.H. Taylor, he posed me most of the time, or tweaked any pose that I did on my own.  This is why his images are so easily recognizable.  He has a vision that he communicates to the model.

Also, for about half the time I spent with Jeff Stella, the man who shot my avatar, he suggested a pose.  He is very, very good at composing a shot, and he would physically jump in the shot to show me what he saw.  For instance, this shot was composed by him, as I wouldn't have really have been able to see this idea from where I was on the floor.  From his viewpoint, he could tell exactly how wonderful a shot he could make if he instructed me:

https://www.modelmayhem.com/pic.php?pic … id=1415768

When I work for art schools, I do all my own gesture poses (short drawings 1-5 minutes in length), but for longer poses, depending on what it being taught that day, I will be given some instruction.  "Please choose a reclining pose with a lot of negative space."

After taking a pose I think is suitable to hold for a long time, the teacher will do a walk-around, and ask me to move a certain body part to better portray the lesson for the day.

When I pose for someone who shoots film, there is a lot of instruction and feedback being given.  The amount of poses chosen by me, and the amount chosen by the photographer are generally pretty equal when it comes to shooting film.  There is a great deal of communication.

Apr 12 08 12:32 am Link

Model

S. Stark

Posts: 13614

Los Angeles, California, US

digital Artform wrote:
What should I do if I get a hard on while modeling?

(what?? It's a serious question)

Many new male models, or people that never intend on modeling but are curious, tend to be very worried about what would happen in the case of an erection.

Though I am clearly not a male, it has been my experience that this is generally a non-issue.  I put my photographer hat on one day, and shot an artist friend of mine nude.  He was extremely nervous in the weeks prior, because he'd never been nude for the sake of art, had never been nude in front of me, and had never been nude on camera.

My advice to him was to:

A) Put it out of his mind completely, it probably won't happen.
B) Masturbate beforehand.

I say this seriously. 

While I think that most men would generally be too worried about posing, and too worried about getting an erection to get an erection, it really couldn't hurt to take care of it first, if you really feel it will be an issue.

I have posed with a few nude male models, while I was also nude, and no such thing occurred.

I also know many men that pose for art classes, and none of them have reported having this happen, though most were admittedly worried about it beforehand.

Unless you are shooting erotic nudes, posing without clothes is not really any different than posing with clothes.  If you are shooting erotic nudes, you should talk to the photographer beforehand, and decide whether or not you would like him or her to continue shooting while you have an erection.

If you are shooting classic art nudes and you get an erection, I would advise that you quietly leave for a moment and take care of it, just as you would take care of any other naturally occurring bodily function.  I recently had an issue on set where I allowed myself to pose for a bit longer than I should have, while on my period, and I ended up with blood all over my legs.  No one in the workshop ever mentioned anything to me, even though I can't imagine they didn't notice.  I didn't say anything, as I was not actively posing when I noticed it, so I just walked out of the room, dealt with it, and came back in.

I will allow Jon Horsethief to jump in on this question.

Apr 12 08 12:54 am Link

Photographer

digital Artform

Posts: 49326

Los Angeles, California, US

very interesting

Apr 12 08 12:56 am Link

Model

D M M

Posts: 7910

Boston, Massachusetts, US

I absolutely love this thread.  So interesting.

Apr 12 08 12:57 am Link

Photographer

JSVPhotography

Posts: 4897

Madison, Wisconsin, US

Shandra is going to CA wrote:

Many new male models, or people that never intend on modeling but are curious, tend to be very worried about what would happen in the case of an erection.

Though I am clearly not a male, it has been my experience that this is generally a non-issue.  I put my photographer hat on one day, and shot an artist friend of mine nude.  He was extremely nervous in the weeks prior, because he'd never been nude for the sake of art, had never been nude in front of me, and had never been nude on camera.

My advice to him was to:

A) Put it out of his mine completely, it probably won't happen.
B) Masturbate beforehand.

I say this seriously. 

While I think that most men would generally be too worried about posing, and too worried about getting an erection to get an erection, it really couldn't hurt to take care of it first, if you really feel it will be an issue.

I have posed with a few nude male models, while I was also nude, and no such thing occurred.

I also know many men that pose for art classes, and none of them have reported having this happen, though most were admittedly worried about it beforehand.

Unless you are shooting erotic nudes, posing without clothes is not really any different than posing with clothes.  If you are shooting erotic nudes, you should talk to the photographer beforehand, and decide whether or not you would like him or her to continue shooting while you have an erection.

If you are shooting classic art nudes and you get an erection, I would advise that you quietly leave for a moment and take of it, just as you would take care of any other naturally occurring bodily function.  I recently had an issue on set where I allowed myself to pose for a bit longer than I should have, while on my period, and I ended up with blood all over my legs.  No one in the workshop ever mentioned anything to me, even though I can't imagine they didn't notice.  I didn't say anything, as I was not actively posing when I noticed it, so I just walked out of the room, dealt with it, and came back in.

I will allow Jon Horsethief to jump in on this question.

2 minutes before the shutdown... Shandra... you know I like and respect you but the jack off before hand deal? I'm not sure about this. Is this YOUR idea and experience talking or is this coming from other sources?

Apr 12 08 01:02 am Link

Model

Novi Nihilla

Posts: 80

Calgary, Alberta, Canada

Shandra is going to CA wrote:
I have oftentimes gone to a studio that is FRIGID, and when I ask about heat, simply get told "I don't have control over it." Or, "There are so many lights on, you should be warm enough."

I must say, this is nice to hear - so many times, I hear about how "real" models will deal with any condition thrown at them, and not let anything become a hindrance. Not to mention, I think I have a predisposition to get cold faster than avergae.

So I've been working on keeping my mouth shut, as any work I do or don't get depends on word of mouth somewhat. If I feel the photographer is choosing to be human on a given shoot, I'll suggest ways I could be more comfortable... but you're right about the shooter needing to have some empathy - if comfort is a simple action away, I shouldn't be afraid to ask smile

Apr 12 08 01:04 am Link

Photographer

Mr Banner

Posts: 85322

Hayward, California, US

JSVPhotography wrote:

2 minutes before the shutdown... Shandra... you know I like and respect you but the jack off before hand deal? I'm not sure about this. Is this YOUR idea and experience talking or is this coming from other sources?

it's the experience of pretty much every photographer who shoots nudes (at least initially)

and most male nude models who worry about it.

Apr 12 08 01:05 am Link

Model

S. Stark

Posts: 13614

Los Angeles, California, US

JSVPhotography wrote:
2 minutes before the shutdown... Shandra... you know I like and respect you but the jack off before hand deal? I'm not sure about this. Is this YOUR idea and experience talking or is this coming from other sources?

Every photographer that shoots male nudes, and every male figure model I have talked to has agreed that this would be an effective way to handle the situation before it even has a chance to occur.  This isn't to say they have all done this, as most of the people I run in circles with don't have anxiety issues about this sort of thing, but it was agreed that it wouldn't be inappropriate.

I started a thread about it before I shot my friend Billy nude.  It appears to have disappeared now, but there was a lot of useful information there.

I answered the question to the best of my ability.  I do not have a penis, but if I did, that is what I would do.  That is what others have told me is an acceptable course of action.

Apr 12 08 01:11 am Link

Model

S. Stark

Posts: 13614

Los Angeles, California, US

Photon Mechanic wrote:
should I expect there to be a place for me to clean up after a shoot?



how do I know who to work with?

Interesting question.

I have never felt the need to clean up after completing a classic nude shoot.  In almost all cases, you can just clean up at home.  Make-up on the face (if there is any) can be taken off with olive oil, and you can shower on your own time.

Just pack up your stuff and go home.

If you are posing for a body painting, however...it is preferred that there be a shower on site to get the paint off your skin as soon as possible, especially if it is a long drive home.

If you live in the same town, and don't ming looking like a giraffe on the way home, there isn't really a need for anyone to go out of the way and get a studio or location just for you with a shower.

It's a nice thing to have, but not a necessity, and nothing to get upset over.

I will not be answering the second question here, as it is a very complicated subject which I will cover extensively in my book.

For anyone reading this now, I would say: Check references.  Follow your instinct.

Apr 12 08 01:21 am Link

Photographer

JSVPhotography

Posts: 4897

Madison, Wisconsin, US

Damon Banner wrote:

it's the experience of pretty much every photographer who shoots nudes (at least initially)

and most male nude models who worry about it.

Wow. I am not buying this one at all.

Apr 12 08 01:26 am Link

Photographer

Mr Banner

Posts: 85322

Hayward, California, US

JSVPhotography wrote:
Wow. I am not buying this one at all.

your choice. 

we aren't talkking about beating it in the studio, right before the shoot while everyone sits around in watches. just in case THAT is what is confusing you.


if you are worried, it's something you take care of before even getting in your car

Apr 12 08 01:32 am Link

Photographer

Mr Banner

Posts: 85322

Hayward, California, US

JSVPhotography wrote:

Wow. I am not buying this one at all.

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 1417&page=

shandra's old thread  https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 3421&page=

Apr 12 08 01:40 am Link

Model

S. Stark

Posts: 13614

Los Angeles, California, US

More questions!

Apr 12 08 02:23 am Link

Photographer

Scott Aitken

Posts: 3587

Seattle, Washington, US

If I may interject, Re: erections...

I have shot roughly 100 male models nude over the last 5 years. Anxiety over possible erections is very common among new male models who have not posed nude before. Veterans don't worry about it because they know it won't happen.

The anxiety is mostly not warranted. If it isn't an erotic shoot, and everyone is acting professional, then it probably will never happen. I've never had a model get an erection in the studio. Not once. Usually there is a brief period of nervousness when they first take their clothes off. But then we get in to adjusting the lighting, and nuances of pose, and figuring out what looks good for that particular model, and metering, and pretty soon they realize that it really isn't all that different than a shoot with clothes. They're trying to do their job as a model and I'm trying to do my job as a photographer, and the novelty and titillation over being naked passes in about 5 minutes. Pretty soon they're helping me move ladders and props, naked, because it's too much bother putting their clothes back on when they are going to have to take them back off again in a few minutes.

It also depends, in part, on the photographer. I behave very professionally when working with a nude model. If anything, I overcompensate. This helps them to stay serious and focused on their task too. But I've had models tell me that other photographers they've worked with did not have my ethics, and were encouraging them to get an erection, trying to get a bit of a show. In my opinion this is highly unethical and disrespectful, unless it was agreed before hand that the shoot was going to be explicit or X rated.

When a new model expresses concern about it ahead of time, I tell them that if they get an erection during the shoot that I will stop the shoot and let them get dressed or excuse themselves to the restroom, or whatever they need to do to relax before we go back to shooting. I say this knowing full well they're not going to get an erection, because just giving them that reassurance reduces the anxiety, and reduces the likelihood that it will happen. I've never had to stop a shoot yet.

I am dubious about the suggestion to masturbate before the shoot. Personally, I don't think it would make much difference. A young healthy man can masturbate, and get another erection 15 minutes later if there is something that turns him on. As much as we joke about young guys getting wood when the wind blows the right way, it isn't true. There has to be something, however vague, that triggers it in their mind. If everyone in the studio is acting professional and taking their task seriously, there is nothing to stimulate an erection.

Apr 12 08 02:25 am Link

Photographer

Mr Banner

Posts: 85322

Hayward, California, US

Scott Aitken wrote:
As much as we joke about young guys getting wood when the wind blows the right way, it isn't true. There has to be something, however vague, that triggers it in their mind

umm.  I'm going to have to disagree w/ that smile




I agree w/ the rest however.   A non erotic shoot is quite possibly one of the least sexual situations you can put yourself in.  Even for erotic content, it isn't that hot, mostly because in a way, it becomes clinical for both photographer and model, adjusting lights, checking settings, etc etc etc.

Apr 12 08 02:33 am Link

Photographer

Mr Banner

Posts: 85322

Hayward, California, US

worst experience had while modeling?

Apr 12 08 02:34 am Link

Photographer

Wye

Posts: 10811

Toronto, Ontario, Canada

How do you feel re: the photographer controlling/directing your poses?

Apr 12 08 02:49 am Link

Photographer

Mr Banner

Posts: 85322

Hayward, California, US

is there a point when you think you'll be able to say, "i've reached the apex of nude modeling"?

And where is that point? 



I guess this is a question about goals and accomplishments..

Apr 12 08 02:53 am Link

Photographer

Pat Thielen

Posts: 16800

Hastings, Minnesota, US

Shandra is going to CA wrote:

On the whole, I think that photographers have the potential to be the most difficult to work with.

Generally speaking, photographers do not go through classes that enable them to know how to treat a model, or to understand the needs of said model.

I have oftentimes gone to a studio that is FRIGID, and when I ask about heat, simply get told "I don't have control over it." Or, "There are so many lights on, you should be warm enough."

When working with traditional artists, students or not, they are prepared.  They don't make excuses for a cold room, they have a heater or two on hand, and I am generally asked about the temperature before I even get on the stand.  Traditional artists will periodically ask you about your comfort, tell you to stretch, or ask you to take a quick snack break while they switch out their tools.  Traditional artists don't usually wait for you to be uncomfortable, they do everything in their power to make sure that never happens in the first place, and you're never rushed.  I find working with traditional artists to be very relaxing, and the atmosphere is always laid back.

This is not always the case with photographers. 

The equipment is expensive, they can think their time is more precious than mine, they can be very caught up in themselves, and forget how important it can be to just smile on occasion.  Bad attitudes can make a model very put off.

Traditional artists are more respectful of needs, and health concerns.  Things like that.

If I were to tell any art school or individual artist that my back was in spasm, they would insist that I stay at home.  If I were to tell almost any photographer, it would be strongly suggested that I show up anyway, and I would be made to feel that canceling, no matter the reason, is the most unprofessional thing on Earth, that if I really cared about their art, I would injure myself further and deal with it after helping them.

I really love that art students are able to see what it is to be considerate.  They get to see their teachers offering us water, getting us pillows, and making sure the sheets they hand us to sit on are clean (okay, not always).  One class even got to see what it was like to have a model pass out and fall off the stand, crashing her head into concrete, and got to see how the teacher reacted.

A lot of photographers never went to school, or have worked with landscape so long they forget that models are human and not inanimate objects.

This doesn't go for everyone, of course.

However, I will say that traditional artists  (schools in general, or individuals) can sometimes be harder to schedule with.

"Can you make it on a Tuesday?  Or how about like a Wednesday or a Monday?  Maybe this week or in like three or five weeks?  Maybe the middle of next month or something?  Let me know!"

Some are so scatterbrained that it takes two months to schedule anything.

Oh, how do I deal with it.

If the room is too cold and I have already mentioned it three or four times, I just shiver and they get to edit out all my goosebumps and awkward faces.  If I am asked a question about my life and then asked not to move my lips (which I find terribly annoying), I simply do not utter a single word until spoken to again.

If someone is overbearing, I will act the opposite...just quietly posing and getting through the day.

If I told to do something I am not comfortable with (make a silly face!!  show me the real you!!!  Uh, well, the real me is not that silly.) I usually am just very honest.  I will express my concerns or limitations.

I am not argumentative; I'll just quietly get through the shoot or session.

Wow -- This is so well written. When I was in painting and drawing classes with models what Shandra said was compeltely true. The model would pose for 20 minutes, and then have a 10 minute break for a three hour class. We had space heaters, and the models got free pop, water, or snacks from the vending machines (the school gave them change for the machines). And everyone was extremely respectful of the models. It was really a great environment to work in for both the students and the models.

Photography usually works a bit differently, though. The sessions are faster paced, because you're photographing multiple poses (there are rarely very long poses when photographing a model). Often times the conditions change as locations are changed, and it is possible to have conversations with models where this is more difficult in a life drawing session. So, the situations are much different. And there is also the need (sometimes) for the photographer to deal with equipment issues and other unexpected things. This never happens when painting or drawing a nude -- generally the paints or the charcoal isn't in any real need of attention like a misbehaving monolight (ask me about Norman if you really care to know). I would also agree that a photographer who doesn't have the experience of art classes may not be as knowledgeable about the "ethics" that go along with working with a nude model. With me, I had a great deal of experience in being in the same room with nude people from my association with nudist groups and being a Pagan (Pagans love to be naked and often are). By the time I started photographing models I knew what was acceptable and what was right out. You know, it might be a very good thing for any photographer interested in working with nude models to get involved in drawing classes and nudist groups.

Bottom line: Respect and comfort should always be the number one priority. Have the studio warm, take into account the models needs (even if this may be easy to forget when in the groove of a photo session), communicate and ask what they need. And always behave in a very professional manner. What is really bad is when the artist forgets the model is a person -- if this should ever happen the photo session is done.

Thanks for the thread, Shandra. I hope everyone reads it; there is a lot of valuable information here already.

Apr 12 08 03:03 am Link

Photographer

Digitoxin

Posts: 13456

Denver, Colorado, US

A few:

-  What is your pre-shoot (or daily) stretching regimen? Or, how do you stay flexible and limber?

-  what is your pre-shoot preparation list? 

- What process do you go through to conceptualize a shoot or a pose that you would like to try?

- How do you define a successful shoot?

- How often do you travel?

- Do you prefer environmental nudes or studio work?  Why?  Also, for environmental nudes, what are the considerations/issues (legal and otherwise) that concern you if any?

Apr 12 08 06:47 am Link

Photographer

BYS

Posts: 11614

Paris, Île-de-France, France

great thread
right on my list
ty shandra to talk seriously about your job and photography
tb

Apr 12 08 06:57 am Link

Photographer

Mickle Design Werks

Posts: 5967

Washington, District of Columbia, US

Damon Banner wrote:

it's the experience of pretty much every photographer who shoots nudes (at least initially)

and most male nude models who worry about it.

Not my experience.

Nude does NOT always equal sex to me.

Apr 12 08 07:00 am Link

Model

S. Stark

Posts: 13614

Los Angeles, California, US

It's 7am and I am going to finally get to bed, but I will answer more when I wake up.  Keep 'em coming, guys. 

I'd better wake up to at least ten new questions after this post!

smile

Apr 12 08 07:06 am Link

Photographer

Carter Hill

Posts: 276

Detroit, Michigan, US

Scott Aitken wrote:
As much as we joke about young guys getting wood when the wind blows the right way, it isn't true. There has to be something, however vague, that triggers it in their mind

A few years back I read a book on male sexuality. The author contends that a male
gets an erection on average about every 20 minutes without any external stimulus. This is a function of blood flow in the body rather than stimulus and the term erection, as he used it, encompassed the continuum from just more than flaccid to full erection.

Apr 12 08 08:00 am Link

Photographer

Emeritus

Posts: 22000

Las Vegas, Nevada, US

A great thread, Shandra.  It would be a shame if it gets sidetracked by people's preoccupation with one issue.

Apr 12 08 10:08 am Link

Photographer

MartinImages

Posts: 3872

Los Angeles, California, US

Shandra is going to CA wrote:

On the whole, I think that photographers have the potential to be the most difficult to work with.

Generally speaking, photographers do not go through classes that enable them to know how to treat a model, or to understand the needs of said model.

I have oftentimes gone to a studio that is FRIGID, and when I ask about heat, simply get told "I don't have control over it." Or, "There are so many lights on, you should be warm enough."

When working with traditional artists, students or not, they are prepared.  They don't make excuses for a cold room, they have a heater or two on hand, and I am generally asked about the temperature before I even get on the stand.  Traditional artists will periodically ask you about your comfort, tell you to stretch, or ask you to take a quick snack break while they switch out their tools.  Traditional artists don't usually wait for you to be uncomfortable, they do everything in their power to make sure that never happens in the first place, and you're never rushed.  I find working with traditional artists to be very relaxing, and the atmosphere is always laid back.

This is not always the case with photographers. 

The equipment is expensive, they can think their time is more precious than mine, they can be very caught up in themselves, and forget how important it can be to just smile on occasion.  Bad attitudes can make a model very put off.

Traditional artists are more respectful of needs, and health concerns.  Things like that.

If I were to tell any art school or individual artist that my back was in spasm, they would insist that I stay at home.  If I were to tell almost any photographer, it would be strongly suggested that I show up anyway, and I would be made to feel that canceling, no matter the reason, is the most unprofessional thing on Earth, that if I really cared about their art, I would injure myself further and deal with it after helping them.

I really love that art students are able to see what it is to be considerate.  They get to see their teachers offering us water, getting us pillows, and making sure the sheets they hand us to sit on are clean (okay, not always).  One class even got to see what it was like to have a model pass out and fall off the stand, crashing her head into concrete, and got to see how the teacher reacted.

A lot of photographers never went to school, or have worked with landscape so long they forget that models are human and not inanimate objects.

This doesn't go for everyone, of course.

However, I will say that traditional artists  (schools in general, or individuals) can sometimes be harder to schedule with.

"Can you make it on a Tuesday?  Or how about like a Wednesday or a Monday?  Maybe this week or in like three or five weeks?  Maybe the middle of next month or something?  Let me know!"

Some are so scatterbrained that it takes two months to schedule anything.

Oh, how do I deal with it.

If the room is too cold and I have already mentioned it three or four times, I just shiver and they get to edit out all my goosebumps and awkward faces.  If I am asked a question about my life and then asked not to move my lips (which I find terribly annoying), I simply do not utter a single word until spoken to again.

If someone is overbearing, I will act the opposite...just quietly posing and getting through the day.

If I told to do something I am not comfortable with (make a silly face!!  show me the real you!!!  Uh, well, the real me is not that silly.) I usually am just very honest.  I will express my concerns or limitations.

I am not argumentative; I'll just quietly get through the shoot or session.

This is advice?

You lost me at:  "Photographers do not go through classes...."

Sorry your shooting experiences have been so awful.  They're not, mostly.

B

Apr 12 08 12:42 pm Link

Model

_Blip_

Posts: 6703

Tampa, Florida, US

Shandra has already answered the question about erections, so let's not get stuck on one issue, driving this thread off topic. If you wish to debate the issue, please start your own thread in Off-Topic. Let's please keep this thread going in a positive direction.

Thank you,

Andrea Acailawen
Forum Moderator

Apr 12 08 02:55 pm Link

Photographer

Mr and Mrs Huber

Posts: 5056

Santa Rosalía, Baja California Sur, Mexico

martinimages wrote:
This is advice?

You lost me at:  "(Generally speaking) photographers do not go through classes...."

Sorry your shooting experiences have been so awful.  They're not, mostly.

B

Dude. RELAX.
I'm sure you are thinking "I've gone through classes"...  & yeah.. I'm a photography major in a State school.. so what. The post is not intended as some sort of attack on you or I, or on photographers as a whole.

Think of how many people out there call themselves photographers... and think of how many of them shoot nudes.

NOW - think of how many people out there do oil painting, or sculpture, or charcoal, or make lithographs/drypoint/etchings... (add them all up in your head).... and then consider how many of those people work with nudes...

which group do you think has the most "art school" education?
THAT is what Shandra's getting at.

Apr 12 08 04:35 pm Link

Model

Rachel Jay

Posts: 20441

Nashville, Tennessee, US

Wonderful thread, and fantastic, well-written responses!  What I would like to see you discuss is the acceptance of your nude modeling by your friends, family and professional peers (those not involved in the modeling/art world).  Have you had issues, lost friends, been chastised at work, etc?

Apr 12 08 07:04 pm Link

Model

S. Stark

Posts: 13614

Los Angeles, California, US

martinimages wrote:
This is advice?

You lost me at:  "Photographers do not go through classes...."

Sorry your shooting experiences have been so awful.  They're not, mostly.

B

I guess I should have given the thread a more appropriate title.  Shandra's Q and A.

My shooting experiences have not been "awful", I was merely answering the question.  In general (which means "Hi, I'm generalizing an entire group of people"), photographers that have not had tradition art classes (painting, sculpting, drawing...etc), do not have the same role models.  While it's true, some photographers I have worked with are also brilliant artists in other aspects, and almost all have bee extraordinarily polite, not being in tune with a models needs does NOT make someone IMpolite.  That is not at all what I meant.

I am sorry that all you got out of my post was "I hate photographers, they don't feed me grapes while I lounge", but I was asked a question, and I answered to the best of my ability.

Also, you took "photographers do not go through classes" completely out of context.  This is what I said:

"Generally speaking (aka: this is a huge massive generalization based on the experiences I've had with 200+ individual photographers I have worked with), photographers do not go through classes that enable them to know how to treat a model, or to understand the needs of said model."

I have posed for workshops that have a brief discussion period about how to treat models, but there really aren't many out there that are solely dedicated to shooting.  Have you taken classes where you've knowingly or unknowingly learned about etiquette in regards to model treatment?

If there is anything else I can clear up for you, please let me know.

Apr 12 08 09:12 pm Link

Model

S. Stark

Posts: 13614

Los Angeles, California, US

Photon Mechanic wrote:

Dude. RELAX.
I'm sure you are thinking "I've gone through classes"...  & yeah.. I'm a photography major in a State school.. so what. The post is not intended as some sort of attack on you or I, or on photographers as a whole.

Think of how many people out there call themselves photographers... and think of how many of them shoot nudes.

NOW - think of how many people out there do oil painting, or sculpture, or charcoal, or make lithographs/drypoint/etchings... (add them all up in your head).... and then consider how many of those people work with nudes...

which group do you think has the most "art school" education?
THAT is what Shandra's getting at.

smile

Apr 12 08 09:16 pm Link

Model

S. Stark

Posts: 13614

Los Angeles, California, US

Digitoxin wrote:
A few:

-  What is your pre-shoot (or daily) stretching regimen? Or, how do you stay flexible and limber?

While I would love to be able to say I am perfect in every way and have a daily stretching routine, sadly, I do not.  I keep telling myself I am going to finally pick up yoga (traditional yoga, not a yoga/kickboxing/pilates mix.  Ha.), I never do.

I am naturally flexible, but I know I could be doing more for my body in that regard.

I DO stretch before and during any modeling session, more often during art classes because you feel the affects of the pose right away.

Thinking back, I find that I always stretch during an art class.  Always.  I show up with my water or smoothie in hand, and sit down to stretch on the stand.  After each quick pose, I shake it out, and after every long pose/during every break I stretch nearly the entire time, unless I am eating a snack, though I can usually do both at the same time.

I also constantly move while on the stand...but I'll explain what I mean in my book.  It's top secret.  smile

During a photography shoot, my body doesn't feel things as immediately as when I pose for long periods of time, so I just kind of stretch when I feel my body needs it, but the truth is, your body could use preventative stretching.  Thank you for bringing this up.  Before I write my book, or that section of the book anyway (comfort/health), I will practice yoga for three months and share all the new fun things I am able to do with my body, as well as any changes in the occurrence of pain or stiff muscles.

-  what is your pre-shoot preparation list?

Sleep.

I never sleep at the right times.  For instance, I just woke up at nine pm, because I could not fall asleep until noon.  You can imagine how this would affect a model that needs to be ready to shoot by 9am.  I have sometimes gone to shoots with zero sleep.  Posing for an art school without sleep is the WORST. 

Not getting enough sleep affects me more than not eating enough, or not drinking enough water.  It can be truly harmful and make for a horrible shooting experience.

Aside from that, my checklist:

healthy, energizing breakfast
shower the night before or the day of and just wet my hair
*bring robe/slippers/hair tie
bring snacks
*tampons if needed

*These things are usually already in my duffle.

That's it, for me.  I'm pretty much ready to shoot all the time.

- What process do you go through to conceptualize a shoot or a pose that you would like to try?

I am weird.  I don't have a process.

I just show up and make it up as I go along.  I have no routine, don't practice in front of a mirror, and have no idea what pose I will strike until I am already doing it. 

I gather this isn't normal, but as this question pertains to me specifically, that is my answer.

- How do you define a successful shoot?

If I leave genuinely smiling, it was a successful shoot, regardless of whether or not I use any of the images later on.

- How often do you travel?

Lots!  Not as often this year, because I am in school, but in 2006-2007, I flew to Boston six times, California twice, Dallas and Las Vegas once each.  I will be in California next month for two weeks, and am trying to extend my ticket to make that three weeks.  I will go into (great) detail about how to be a traveling model, and how to market yourself in my book.

- Do you prefer environmental nudes or studio work?  Why?  Also, for environmental nudes, what are the considerations/issues (legal and otherwise) that concern you if any?

Environmental nudes!!!

You can read this for more: http://gymnophobe.blogspot.com/2007_09_20_archive.html

Legal issues with posing outdoors do not concern me.  I am cautious, but not paranoid.

Apr 12 08 09:16 pm Link