MelDanGrfx wrote:

my daughter is in school and i have never gotten one of those forms and they have had plenty of events where they take pictures..

It was almost certainly buried among the papers you signed/filled in at the start of the school year, perhaps on a form that requested medical information emergency contacts, bus routing etc etc.  Most schools do it this way.  A few choose to have a separate piece of paper that explains all of this and a sig block but not all schools are so enlightened.  They all want to be able to take promotional pics not only of their athletes/singers/budding air guitarists  but also of the crowds in the stands or 'walk through' promotional videos.

MelDanGrfx wrote:
I really need some real answers.. not what you think or feel to be true.

Sorry, this is Model Mayhem, where there is no rule requiring people to have any damned idea what they are talking about before they give advice.  There is also no rule requiring people to follow an OP's request to have a clue before posting something they are clueless about.

Hence so many of the answers you have received above.

Let's get real, just for a moment, before we descend back into ignorant paranoia:

1.  There is no age at which it becomes legal or illegal to take a person's picture, whether or not anyone's permission is involved. 

2.  Since you specified completely non-sexy shots, there is no legal issue with the nature of the photography for people under 18.

3.  You did not specify that a model release would be needed, and from the sound of what you intend to do, it likely would not.  Consequently, whether or not a release can be signed is irrelevant.

4.  There are a very few states in which a parent's signature is required on a release for a minor.  North Carolina is not one of them.  It might be true, if a minor signs a release, that they may disaffirm it at some point, but that doesn't  make it invalid until they do (assuming that they are at least old enough to understand what they are signing.  A release signed by a two year old would be hard to uphold. )

5.  There are hazards which could result from taking pictures of anyone of any age, resulting from false, unwarranted claims of misbehavior.  These hazards are increased somewhat for minors, but are different only in degree, not in kind.

Weekend Photographer wrote:
http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Photographers-Guide-Releases-ebook/dp/B002MUAFIS/ref=dp_kinw_strp_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1254756104&sr=1-1

You rely on this at your peril.

Davepit wrote:
Oh, and one more thing - if my daughter were to get you to photograph her, without asking me, and, not having any money of her own, got you to send me the bill, neither she nor I would pay you. Rather, we would simply return the prints.

In other words, you would have worked for nothing. Consider this when deciding how to bill the children.

Retail photography is a cash or credit card business.
No cash or plastic no shoot.

And if your kid comes in to the store and buys a shoot and at the end says....
sorry I'm not going to pay.....
Well that's really the same as buying lunch and then refusing to pay.
and the business can decide how to proceed.

Doug Lester wrote:
There is no requirement to have a parent present when photographing, none at all. In fact teens walk into portrait studios alone every day of the week to have portraits made. As long as there is no a content, there is no problem.  Just bear in mind that the minor can not sign a model release. Don't be confused by much of what you see here, MM has little to do with brick and mortar reality.  Take their cash and give them their pix.

AMEN!

I shoot minors all the time without discussing it with their parents. They just understand that the clothes stay on, must be age appropriate and we're all good.

As stated, they cant sign a release, but they do have cash! Now if the photos were that good, then contact mommy and have her sign one so you have a parents consent to use them. In the mean time, nothing wrong with making an honest dollar.

Emeritus wrote:

Sorry, this is Model Mayhem, where there is no rule requiring people to have any damned idea what they are talking about before they give advice.  There is also no rule requiring people to follow an OP's request to have a clue before posting something they are clueless about.

Hence so many of the answers you have received above.

Let's get real, just for a moment, before we descend back into ignorant paranoia:

1.  There is no age at which it becomes legal or illegal to take a person's picture, whether or not anyone's permission is involved. 

2.  Since you specified completely non-sexy shots, there is no legal issue with the nature of the photography for people under 18.

3.  You did not specify that a model release would be needed, and from the sound of what you intend to do, it likely would not.  Consequently, whether or not a release can be signed is irrelevant.

4.  There are a very few states in which a parent's signature is required on a release for a minor.  North Carolina is not one of them.  It might be true, if a minor signs a release, that they may disaffirm it at some point, but that doesn't  make it invalid until they do (assuming that they are at least old enough to understand what they are signing.  A release signed by a two year old would be hard to uphold. )

5.  There are hazards which could result from taking pictures of anyone of any age, resulting from false, unwarranted claims of misbehavior.  These hazards are increased somewhat for minors, but are different only in degree, not in kind.

and this is why we have "Emeritus" on MM he knows absolutely everything about anything, I am waiting for a web site called " Ask Emeritus " then I will not have to come to these forums


you can take a picture of anyone anywhere not matter what age, but legal implications my follow if you put on web or print

Christopher Hartman wrote:
You'll go to jail forever, don't do it.

And be nice to Bubba........

Doug Swinskey wrote:
yes you can...

i am sure the misinformed and paranoid will disagree...

Hehe... Usually by page 3 the information and accuracy of it will have gone tottally awry.

CGI Images wrote:
Hehe... Usually by page 3 the information and accuracy of it will have gone tottally awry.

...because every camera phone has a warning in the view screen before it lets you take the pic. "ENSURE THAT EVERYONE YOU ARE TAKING A PIC OF IS OF LEGAL AGE"

..and every pizza place has an age-verification system in the line up for slices

...and...

some where...somehow...common sense should come back into focus

AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:

...because every camera phone has a warning in the view screen before it lets you take the pic. "ENSURE THAT EVERYONE YOU ARE TAKING A PIC OF IS OF LEGAL AGE"

..and every pizza place has an age-verification system in the line up for slices

...and...

some where...somehow...common sense should come back into focus

Common Sense??? ....... We don't need no Stinkin Common Sense!!!

Chris Macan wrote:

Common Sense??? ....... We don't need no Stinkin Common Sense!!!

Not if you're confusing a release with a contract.

Chris Macan wrote:
Retail photography is a cash or credit card business.
No cash or plastic no shoot.

And if your kid comes in to the store and buys a shoot and at the end says....
sorry I'm not going to pay.....
Well that's really the same as buying lunch and then refusing to pay.
and the business can decide how to proceed.

Not quite - lunch is an a necessary service for the child - photography isn't. As such, in most common law countries, the child can rescind the contract for the photographs. If the child chases his mind at the end, you have to try to convince mum or dad to pay.

Liteguy wrote:
You can shoot a 17 year old all you want.

But without a parents signature on the model release, you can't do anything with the pictures.

why waste your time?

Well, if you're paid, some would argue that's not a waste of time .. . .

Chris Macan wrote:

Actually...... No it would not require an adult signature.
A minor can sign a contract....
the hitch is they can also change their mind and rescind that signature.

In the case of your shoot contract...
What negative impact is there if they do change their mind before the shoot?
you just don't shoot.

In the case of your usage agreement....
That is a document that you provide to them granting them rights to use the images.
You sign it.... they don't need to.
Minors are not exempt for copyright laws.

Anyone who does retail photography seriously learns about having a shoot contract approved by your attorney. There are too many sue-happy assholes out there not to protect yourself. And yes to be valid it requires an adult signature, it can't be relied on with a minor signing it.

And I didn't say the client signs the usage license, I said a "shoot contract that customers will sign."

In retail photography, many people will choose to collect a retainer/deposit to book the date. Again, you need a contract.

Chris Macan wrote:
Actually...... No it would not require an adult signature.
A minor can sign a contract....
the hitch is they can also change their mind and rescind that signature.

In the case of your shoot contract...
What negative impact is there if they do change their mind before the shoot?
you just don't shoot.

In the case of your usage agreement....
That is a document that you provide to them granting them rights to use the images.
You sign it.... they don't need to.
Minors are not exempt for copyright laws.

Lumigraphics wrote:
Anyone who does retail photography seriously learns about having a shoot contract approved by your attorney. There are too many sue-happy assholes out there not to protect yourself. And yes to be valid it requires an adult signature, it can't be relied on with a minor signing it.

And I didn't say the client signs the usage license, I said a "shoot contract that customers will sign."

In retail photography, many people will choose to collect a retainer/deposit to book the date. Again, you need a contract.

where do you get this stuff from? shoot contracts being approved by lawyers?.......do you make this shit up or did you hear about it online?

Doug Swinskey wrote:

Chris Macan wrote:
Actually...... No it would not require an adult signature.
A minor can sign a contract....
the hitch is they can also change their mind and rescind that signature.

In the case of your shoot contract...
What negative impact is there if they do change their mind before the shoot?
you just don't shoot.

In the case of your usage agreement....
That is a document that you provide to them granting them rights to use the images.
You sign it.... they don't need to.
Minors are not exempt for copyright laws.

where do you get this stuff from?
shoot contracts being approved by lawyers?.......do you make this shit up or did you hear about it online?

Hello dude...RETAIL photography. You have a standard contract. But what do you know? You don't shoot weddings or senior portraits, do you? Maybe you should ask the PPA if they recommend that members have contracts. Hint- they do.

Lumigraphics wrote:
Hello dude...RETAIL photography. You have a standard contract. But what do you know? You don't shoot weddings or senior portraits, do you? Maybe you should ask the PPA if they recommend that members have contracts. Hint- they do.

you're funny....you know so little about me.....
i have done weddings where i had an agreement for the wedding couple to sign off on...1/3 down as deposit (receipt) 1/3 after ceremony (receipt) 1/3 down on delivery of images (receipt, no contract)

i have done senior portraits where the client would buy a package.
half down and half on delivery..(no contract).

commercial clients have many different needs, to have a lawyer go over every different instance would be financially inhibiting...

but i'm guessing you have a "lawyer approved" contract for all your retail work?....
(rhetorical)

MelDanGrfx wrote:
Ok whats the rule...I've searched and searched and can't find the answer to this question.
What age can i photograph a person (non Nude) without the parent being present and getting into trouble?

Proceed with confidence as long as you are certain that the parents won't have any regrets afterwards and don't realize what a big stick they have.

Doug Swinskey wrote:

you're funny....you know so little about me.....
i have done weddings where i had an agreement for the wedding couple to sign off on...1/3 down as deposit (receipt) 1/3 after ceremony (receipt) 1/3 down on delivery of images (receipt, no contract)

i have done senior portraits where the client would buy a package.
half down and half on delivery..(no contract).

commercial clients have many different needs, to have a lawyer go over every different instance would be financially inhibiting...

but i'm guessing you have a "lawyer approved" contract for all your retail work?....
(rhetorical)

Back when I was doing weddings? Damn right. It isn't complicated- any small service business does the same thing- dry cleaner, hotel, dog-walker, delivery company, etc.

MelDanGrfx wrote:
What age can i photograph a person (non Nude) without the parent being present and getting into trouble?

Once you're old enough to operate the camera, you can photograph a non nude person whose parents aren't there and getting into trouble. But if they're aren't there, how do you know they aren't getting into trouble?

On the other hand, if you wanted to know if you might get into trouble photographing a minor without the parent being there, then that entirely depends on the parent's reaction when their kid tells them you fondled them.

On the other hand, (and I realize that now we have an extra hand we have to account for) if you are asking if it is illegal to photograph a minor without the parent being there, the answer is no.

ERNIE CHAN wrote:
High School Sports-before the season starts-parents of athletes are required to sign a photography release form-if you are a regular or a  contract photographer for a newspaper or magazine you can use the photos you have taken for the publication for your portfolio

Please do not speak in universals.

Situations like that vary by the community AND the sports league.

Farenell Photography wrote:

Please do not speak in universals.

Situations like that vary by the community AND the sports league.

True, the signing of releases varies by league, but the underlying law does not.  You can't use an image commerce without a signed release.  Period. 

Read Section 50 of the NYS Civil Rights Law.  It's darn scary.  I'm sure other states are different, though.

Farenell Photography wrote:
Please do not speak in universals.

Situations like that vary by the community AND the sports league.

ArtisticPhotography wrote:
True, the signing of releases varies by league, but the underlying law does not.  You can't use an image commerce without a signed release.  Period. 

Read Section 50 of the NYS Civil Rights Law.  It's darn scary.  I'm sure other states are different, though.

Really??? I'll be sure to tell the local paper.

Immicam wrote:
Easy mate, from my understanding parental consent is required, therefore speak with a parent even on the phone then ask the model to bring written permission to what level the parents are willing to let their sons or daughters work too.

this is the easiest way
immy

And if it turns out that the person you spoke to on the phone is actually just the kid's friend, and the kid signs her parent's name on the form, you are SCREWED.

Gabriel Pangilinan wrote:
Then again, I took candid photos of teenagers Ice Skating at the rink and I'm sure they and their parents don't know.  Would there be legal action that could go against me as well ?

Not because they're teenagers, no. If they were in a public place, you can photograph them.

You can't use the pictures for a whole lot without a release, though.

MelDanGrfx wrote:
whats funny to me is that so many of us forget how we were at 17.. Driving, working a job, going to parties, trying to be or at least learn how to be adults..etc.. Alot of times these kids have their own money to pay for what they want...they make desions on their own...I am also a graphic designer and some of the dudes that are throwing parties around here are 17 and have their own little companies and want me to take pics of them to put on a flyer or a cd cover im designing for them.


Im NOT taking nude or even sexual pics... were talking about straight up regular pics...If it was something else i would not do it unless they were 18..

Extra thanx to the photographers that read and understand what I was saying...

I'm taking pictures of a 17-year-old in a few weeks.  It doesn't bother me and she's coming without an escort.  But I have a kid of the similar age and know how they can be.  So I required a sign release just to ensure that her parents knew what was going on.  I didn't do it so much for me as for her (and her parents).  In the past, when I've told under-aged people that a parent sign a release, some have suddenly found that they were unavailable.  It doesn't bother me when that happens because I think the parents should be informed and involved.  I'd much rather have an underaged model flake because of a parental signature than a parent freak because of what they didn't know.

But that's just me.

Chris Macan wrote:
Really??? I'll be sure to tell the local paper.

You didn't read the law.  Depends on what the paper is using it for.  Editorial use is not commercial but advertisements are.

ArtisticPhotography wrote:
You didn't read the law.  Depends on what the paper is using it for.  Editorial use is not commercial but advertisements are.

You didn't say Commercial usage.... You said Commerce.
Newspapers are in fact businesses.... which are a form of Commerce.

And since commercial usage was not the topic of this thread......
you are are off topic.

ArtisticPhotography wrote:
True, the signing of releases varies by league, but the underlying law does not. 
You can't use an image commerce without a signed release.  Period.