Photographer
SANCTUAIRE
Posts: 8061
Tampa, Florida, US
The market sets the price. If people get work that's paid then why would they not display image. Honesty is best policy. Our 2 cents.
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 13564
Washington, Utah, US
I appreciate it when people are straight forward about the fact they won't work trade. I can move on without wasting either of our time.
The phrase about work for free, kind of bothers me though. I think it's kind of insulting to the people who work hard for a trade shoot and get something they value from it.
Photographer
Wysiwyg Photography
Posts: 6326
Salt Lake City, Utah, US
Aesthetic Photoworks wrote:
What are your thoughts on the increasing number of models having this on their profiles:
-Snip-
Do you even care ? Do you take it as an insult ?
Discuss It means they have no idea what TFP actually means.
I hate that picture.
BUT, If I'm looking to PAY a model and they have that on their portfolio... It wouldn't deter me from asking them "Hey, want a gig"?
I rarely do TFP anyway, but it just shows someones ignorance when they post that picture as TFP is NOT free... If you were working for free you would walk in, get your pictures taken and you would sign the release and that would be the end of it, you wouldn't even get pictures because you would be working for FREE.
TFP=Get Prints/Pictures for portfolio
Free=Get nothing after the shoot
Model
Eff
Posts: 466
Spokane, Washington, US
It makes me think the photographer has more interest in making money than making art. In most cases I stay away, even on the rare time that I'm looking to hire. Also makes me think the photographer is a drama queen. I'm not into that.
Also, wow, a lot of this thread is pointed at models. In my personal experience I've seen probably 10x the amount of photographers have that on their profiles than models.
Photographer
S W I N S K E Y
Posts: 24376
Saint Petersburg, Florida, US
SAADIQ PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
Some Oxymorons are not obvious, some may require an understanding of verbal or regional interpretations, and some may even indicate certain prejudices. and some, like the OP's examples are not oxymorons at all....
but thanks for the lovely googled definition...
i cant imagine putting such a bold indication of my own ignorance, on my page for everyone to see....
Photographer
Sexy Vision Images
Posts: 483
Nashville, Tennessee, US
M Blaze Miskulin wrote:
I haven't seen that particular version before, but I'll treat it the same way I do all the other versions I've seen. It immediately lets me know that:
a) The person is a confrontational idiot who doesn't understand the difference between "being particular" and "being hostile to (perceived) peons".
b) They don't understand the concept of "trade"--that it's not "working for free", it's "being paid in something other than dollars (or pounds, or Euros, or yen, etc.).
I'm no longer in a position where I'm hiring models for clients very often, but if I see something like that on a model's profile, I *won't* hire them.
I respect those people who choose not to do trade shoots. That's a business decision. But that doesn't mean you have to be belligerent about it. What I find funny is that (in my experience) the models who are actually successful and respected actually do Tf* shoots--they just don't advertise it, and they're picky who they'll do them with.
I've been fortunate to work with several "paid only" models who are willing to shoot trade with me. I'm nowhere near in the same class as the pros that they normally work with, but they see something in my work that has some value for them (either that, or they're just looking for a home-cooked meal after the shoot)  +1
Body Painter
Extreme Body Art
Posts: 4938
South Jordan, Utah, US
Freddie Faith Keller wrote:
It makes me think the photographer has more interest in making money than making art. In most cases I stay away, even on the rare time that I'm looking to hire. Also makes me think the photographer is a drama queen. I'm not into that.
Also, wow, a lot of this thread is pointed at models. In my personal experience I've seen probably 10x the amount of photographers have that on their profiles than models. Yep
Also Their are a lot of people on here that obviously think TFP is Free.
How do you feel when you did a shoot and you worked your butt off and don't get pictures? (has happened to me a few times) Yep... THAT was working for free.
So NO ONE works for free... it's a stupid picture.
One could say "Sorry, pictures don't pay the bills", "My kids need to eat, and they cannot eat pictures".. because then it shows that you acknowledge that you are getting pictures from a TF shoot 
But it seems pictures don't hold value to MANY people (not just models)
Photographer
David Hirsh
Posts: 2379
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
PashaPhoto wrote:
if i only had a dollar for everytime a model with one of these stupid graphics on her page asked me to shoot trade, i'd be.....
ok... maybe not a dollar...
if i had ten dollars for everytime.......
 +1
I think many of them just put the 'no tfp' stuff there to get rid of the less-than-decent hacks filling up their inboxes with unwanted shoot requests.
cheers,
David Hirsh
Photographer
Wysiwyg Photography
Posts: 6326
Salt Lake City, Utah, US
S W I N S K E Y wrote:
and an FYI, i started this same conversation a while ago...
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 768&page=1 I think we all have started something similar to this conversation
I'm too lazy to search mine out.. but I think if you search "TFP Free" I'm like the third from the top. 
But yes.. I loved your thread too!
Photographer
Moore Photo Graphix
Posts: 5288
Washington, District of Columbia, US
![https://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRPiIaPl8cZCkuBiMlHQpi1bSKSBWkHrZzsmGYDfBuGa9DUquva&t=1]() ![https://mms.ibsrv.net/images/smilies/deadhorse.gif]() Listen OP! This topic has been discussed to death for the umpeeth time. Yes, that graphic is annoying. I've seen on more photographers profile than models profiles. However, I'm not gonna make a big fuss over it. Those who post it got sick and tired of dealing with people who didn't bother to read their profiles. Until that issue is resolved, it's best to focus your energy elsewhere.
Model
P I X I E
Posts: 35440
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
What about photographers with "NO TF" on their profiles?
Photographer
Dizeman
Posts: 72
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
My issue is not that I do not think your time is valuable, it most certainly is. The irony is that you and other models on MM and OMP seem to imagine the photographer's time is absolutely worthless.
It reminds me of a bumper sticker I read once that declared, "Owning an expensive camera does not make you a Photographer... it makes you an expensive camera owner!"
I think I will coin a new bumper sticker that declares, "Posing for photos does not make you a MODEL... it makes you a POSER!"
Jon
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45209
San Juan Bautista, California, US
My thoughts on this are that I find models who will negotiate and work with me regardless if we are shooting TFP or if one of us is paying the other. If a model has that "No TFP" posted ... I still may or may not work with that model. I never say never!
Photographer
New Kidd Imagery
Posts: 1909
South Salt Lake, Utah, US
Dizeman wrote:
I am a Professional Photographer and have been for over 35 years, my client list is extensive, I have been published 1,188 times in 80 magazines and newspapers worldwide. http://dizeman.com/bio/
I believe in being FAIR, SENSIBLE and HONEST, so when I see a model demanding payment for a TEST SHOOT which is what they have been called in the industry for 80 years... it somewhat confuses me that the model expects to get paid on a non-commercial photo shoot that benefits the model, hair stylist, photographer and makeup artist equally and yet for some strange and totally illogical reason, the model does not expect that anyone else on the shoot get paid.
In fairness, if a model is going to get paid for a non-commercial photo shoot that benefits them, the photographer and others participating in the photo shoot should be paid also.
Now! Having said that, OF COURSE, OF COURSE, OF COURSE if the photo shoot is COMMERCIAL in nature and the photographer is being paid by A CLIENT and the images are going to be LICENSED to a CLIENT FOR USE, then EVERYONE SHOULD BE PAID, including the model, photographer, associate services and assistants.
That just makes sense!
Blah blah blah blah blah
It reminds me of a bumper sticker I read once that declared, "Owning an expensive camera does not make you a Photographer... it makes you an expensive camera owner!"
I think I will coin a new bumper sticker that declares, "Posing for photos does not make you a MODEL... it makes you a POSER!"
No personal offense meant by that, it just popped into my head and seemed rational and accurate enough. You know deep down it's true!
Again... GOOD LUCK! WISH YOU WELL!
Jon Wow... just, wow.
My two sense on the picture.
People who agree with that picture or use it, are ignorant.
Nuff said.. they have no idea what TFP is so they put that picture up for a magic "I get paid now" picture.
Model
Big A-Larger Than Life
Posts: 33451
The Woodlands, Texas, US
Aesthetic Photoworks wrote:
What are your thoughts on the increasing number of models having this on their profiles:
![https://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l186/dbr7063/No-TFP.jpg]()
Do you even care ? Do you take it as an insult ?
Discuss I think it's super rude. Any model that has that on their profile is just an asshole!
Photographer
Wysiwyg Photography
Posts: 6326
Salt Lake City, Utah, US
Big A-Larger Than Life wrote:
I think it's super rude. Any model that has that on their profile is just an asshole!
Photographer
Vanderplas
Posts: 1427
Hong Kong, Hong Kong, China
SAADIQ PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
I have no problem with such logo... it means "stay away" with free request! However, if agreed some selective cases may be worthy of a meaningful collaboration (yes, there is a difference). IMHO +1000
Photographer
Gil Rivera
Posts: 553
New York, New York, US
Looknsee Photography wrote:
Anybody can ask for whatever compensation he or she wants. If someone chooses not to work for TF*, that's fine by me.
Anything else is wrong. Or, it's none of my or your business what someone else wants. 100% Agree with you!!!!
Photographer
Vanderplas
Posts: 1427
Hong Kong, Hong Kong, China
Big A-Larger Than Life wrote:
I think it's super rude. Any model that has that on their profile is just an asshole! Would you say the same of a photographer who puts it up?
Model
Big A-Larger Than Life
Posts: 33451
The Woodlands, Texas, US
Elizabeth Claret wrote:
I actually see that image on more photographer profiles than I do modeling.
Models tend to just state somewhere "No trade work at this time" rather than posting a giant attention whoring image. Exactly. Models aren't douchey like that.
Model
Big A-Larger Than Life
Posts: 33451
The Woodlands, Texas, US
Crystal Perido wrote:
Would you say the same of a photographer who puts it up? ....
Photographer
Nina Lux Photography
Posts: 831
New York, New York, US
I worked with a model who had this on her profile. It was a TF shoot.
If I feel the model's look can benefit my portfolio, I still take my chances of asking to do TF anyway. Just in case.
On the other hand, I've had models respond politely and professionally that they don't do TF and declined my offer.
A photographer's reaction to a model asking for TF, despite seeing this sign posted on their profiles is a completely different story...I think we've all seen our fair share of "rants" on here about people getting inboxed about a TF shoot, DESPITE that silly sign on their profile. hehe.
Photographer
Dan D Lyons Imagery
Posts: 3447
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
M Blaze Miskulin wrote:
I haven't seen that particular version before, but I'll treat it the same way I do all the other versions I've seen. It immediately lets me know that:
a) The person is a confrontational idiot who doesn't understand the difference between "being particular" and "being hostile to (perceived) peons".
b) They don't understand the concept of "trade"--that it's not "working for free", it's "being paid in something other than dollars (or pounds, or Euros, or yen, etc.).
I'm no longer in a position where I'm hiring models for clients very often, but if I see something like that on a model's profile, I *won't* hire them.
I respect those people who choose not to do trade shoots. That's a business decision. But that doesn't mean you have to be belligerent about it. What I find funny is that (in my experience) the models who are actually successful and respected actually do Tf* shoots--they just don't advertise it, and they're picky who they'll do them with.
I've been fortunate to work with several "paid only" models who are willing to shoot trade with me. I'm nowhere near in the same class as the pros that they normally work with, but they see something in my work that has some value for them (either that, or they're just looking for a home-cooked meal after the shoot) +1
Well-said. It's an immediate put-off. If someone's so focused on what a job pays, there's nothing left brainwave-wise to allow for creativity on-set or in planning. IMHO, most (not ALL) of those on MM specifically that fly 'no TF*' banners are a joke, anyhow. Model Mayhem is an industry-exclusive social networking site!!! Those on here for the primary purpose of making a buck are obviously very MM-dependent, and of no interest to me anyhow. However, this is ONLY my opinion alone. To each their own, and yada yada. Funny...the vast majority of those who do well think as I do 
Danny
http://dbiphotography.co.cc
http://dbimagery.carbonmade.com
Photographer
H5D PHOTOGRAPHER
Posts: 3837
Gig Harbor, Washington, US
I find it comical that anyone would get so bent out of shape about something like this on a profile.
Some people skim through profiles & don't/can't/refuse to read what's there... instead they go straight to the pictures & then start asking for trade/collaborations or any other word they have for freebie.... a logo that says NO TFP, work for free ... etc gets the message across loud & clear. What's the problem with that?
Its interesting that someone who trolls in the forum "would you shoot nekkid with me?", "How much would you pay me for (fill in the blank)" instead of posting a legit casting call doesn't get the same grief as someone that posts this logo on their profile.... RFLMAO
Photographer
CaseyPhotog
Posts: 953
Sacramento, California, US
Don't care for that graphic, regardless of who's profile it's on. Truth of it is, most professionals will take the time to read carefully and that graphic isn't necessary. By throwing that on a profile, it only makes the person with that graphic look just as unprofessional as the people who don't take the time to read carefully.
Just saying.
EDIT: I forgot to give my stance on the no TFP thing. I'm totally fine with people expecting to get paid for their work. It's just the presentation of that graphic that's obnoxious.
Photographer
Dan D Lyons Imagery
Posts: 3447
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Big A-Larger Than Life wrote:
Exactly. Models aren't douchey like that. You're right. They're more likely to be 'douchey' by screaming (CAPS) telling us "NO NUDES!!! DON'T EVEN ASK!!!", as if everyone out there with a D-SLR/SLR wants to see them sans clothes! Hah! Talk about self-important hlftykryjuh's!!!
Photographer
BAdept Photos
Posts: 97
Anaheim, California, US
That picture pisses me off because its not "Free"...sheesh
I'll just avoid models who post that
Photographer
New Kidd Imagery
Posts: 1909
South Salt Lake, Utah, US
SAADIQ PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
I have no problem with such logo... it means "stay away" with free request! However, if agreed some selective cases may be worthy of a meaningful collaboration (yes, there is a difference). IMHO Who even asks someone with a "Free Request"?
Seriously.. I would like to know.
because last time I checked.. TF was TRADE FOR.... (I give you something and you give me something in return..) Trade...
Most of the photographers I know ask models to model for them and IN RETURN give them pictures for their time (If the model would not see value in those pictures of course she would turn them down)
You my friend seem to have the ability to google definitions.. look up "Trade" see what you get.
Back before money existed a farmer was offered some time to help around the farm from a butcher for some vegetables... so the farmer received an hour or two of his time to help out around the farm.. Guess what.. he earned that food, the farmer didn't give it to him for free.
Photographer
Vamp Boudoir
Posts: 11446
Florence, South Carolina, US
The person that was created for is one of the more successful photographers on this site. The reason he used this is that he was bombarded by "TF offers" that were getting to the point of being obnoxious. So, tit for tat and the notice works for him. It's none of anyone's concern! Those of you who own a 5,000 sq. ft. studio, lake front property and has shot for clients that anyone would drool over, like Coke to name one..... I'm pretty sure you do as you please also. I can tell you, he could care less what you or anyone on this site thinks...and would be more than happy to tell you in person...and don't let the dog bite you in your ass on the way out.
Photographer
Wysiwyg Photography
Posts: 6326
Salt Lake City, Utah, US
Crystal Perido wrote:
Would you say the same of a photographer who puts it up? Double
Hint:Read her portfolio
Photographer
Essential Form
Posts: 2873
Sedalia, Missouri, US
Maja Stina wrote:
Asking someone to work for free is an insult. Some people don't have time for TF and I find that banner funny and appropriate. Gets the point across, eh?
It's obviously aimed at people who contact models/photographers that are WAY better than them asking for TF. In most cases, the person inquiring would probably make the person being asked look bad. It's insulting for someone to ask for TF when it's obvious that they will be of no benefit to the person they are asking.
Sure, it's good to try and aim high, but there's such a thing as being REALISTIC, and SO many people aren't realistic and expect a lot for nothing from people who just simply do not have the time to help out every amateur/newbie out there. Ah . . . so it's a preemptive insult.
Photographer
Vanderplas
Posts: 1427
Hong Kong, Hong Kong, China
H3D PHOTOGRAPHER wrote:
a logo that says NO TFP, work for free ... etc gets the message across loud & clear. What's the problem with that? right
if you're busy with paid work why should you be interested in TFP?
Photographer
Escalante
Posts: 5367
Chicago, Illinois, US
![https://www.fototime.com/DE71E62D3D00630/standard.jpg]() mine is the Photographer's version I guess ...
Photographer
MN Photography
Posts: 1432
Chicago, Illinois, US
Big A-Larger Than Life wrote:
I think it's super rude. Any model that has that on their profile is just an asshole! If a model had a great portfolio and a bunch of fans who might buy prints of her, I still might hire her, asshole or not. I did a shoot with a woman a few years ago who was famous (within a niche) and had a fan base. Her own agent warned me that she was difficult (OK, he actually used the B word). She was, but I've sold a lot of prints from that shoot.
Really, if they show up and you get a few good photos, what's the difference?
Photographer
I M N Photography
Posts: 2350
Boston, Massachusetts, US
BYS wrote:
tfp ? never heard of it except on MM It's actually done for a lot of agency models in America, especially by photographers that still use film, or have a "muse."
It's always been done unofficially, but I agree that I have only seen it used systematically on networking websites.
Photographer
Black Sunshine
Posts: 811
Austin, Texas, US
I for one am outraged that people are demanding money for their time
Photographer
Dizeman
Posts: 72
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Gisele Bundchen, Cindy Crawford, Karolina Kurkova, Tyra Banks, Adriana Lima, Miranda Kerr, Stephanie Seymour all whenever they have free time seek out photographers for TFP/TF photoshoots.
That's when they can hone their skills in a relaxed and casual atmosphere without being under the strick guidelines, discipline and in many cases fixed direction of a client's Art Director, Media Director, Ad Director or Designer. All of the models we know as household names understand the value of doing TEST SHOOTS as they have been called for nearly 80 years.
MODELS are always in need of updated portfolios. Their BOOK as it has been called for over half a century is their life-blood, if they show up at a client's desk with the same photos over and over, I don't care how WANNERFUL the photos are, the client has to wonder if the model is serious.
Photographer
Dan D Lyons Imagery
Posts: 3447
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Trade work is NOT working for free - with the exception of getting approached by folk who are far from on-par with what YOU are offering. Being too busy for trade-work is a wonderful place to be in, and I applaud those who are there. For the rest of us, we fall into two categories: #1. Those of us either establishing or expanding our portfolios, to entice paying clients with our prowess and professionalism shown in the quality of our work and those we work WITH. (I'm in the former category ) #2. The (mostly) ignorant folk, who view ALL TF* work as "free", and will most likely be in nowheresville in 2 years, scratching their heads with a "WTF???" expression. Like everything that falls out of my mouth when I open it, this is all IMHO. I'm very opinionated  Danny http://dbiphotography.co.cc http://dbimagery.carbonmade.com
Photographer
Chili
Posts: 5146
Brooklyn, New York, US
Tim Griffiths wrote:
Maybe we should all have it. No one work at all for anything but pay. Trouble with that is that hobbyist photographers will go on happily paying models they feel like hiring, and 80 percent of models will never get a shoot. ACTUALLY
more likely the other 90% of the hobbyist photographers on MM who scrape by on occasional TFP's would have to start paying or take up bowling or shooting hoops in the driveway, or doing work around the house and yard again
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