Aesthetic Photoworks wrote:
What are your thoughts on the increasing number of models having this on their profiles:



Do you even care ? Do you take it as an insult ?

Discuss

The real morons are those who post this and then do TFP.

DBI photography wrote:
If someone's so focused on what a job pays, there's nothing left brainwave-wise to allow for creativity on-set or in planning.

LOL seriously?  So Spielberg, Francesco Scavullo, Annie L., Giselle, Adriana Lima, or the plastic surgeon that created her boobs can't be creative?  Because money shuts off the creative center of the brain?

Black Sunshine wrote:
I for one am outraged that people are demanding money for their time

Once again...

What is impossible for me to understand is why models imagine the photographer's time has no value whatsoever?

I have to wonder why the concept of paying a model for his or her time is expected when paying the photographer for his or her time is somehow unexpected? It just baffles smart people.

It must be that FUZZY MATH I heard so much about when I was younger.

I will gladly pay the model's ESTABLISHED RATES if the model agrees to pay MY ESTABLISHED RATES. I cannot imagine anyone would find that concept UNFAIR.

Rebel Photo wrote:
The person that was created for is one of the more successful photographers on this site. The reason he used this is that he was bombarded by "TF offers" that were getting to the point of being obnoxious.

So, tit for tat and the notice works for him. It's none of anyone's concern!


Those of you who own a 5,000 sq. ft. studio, lake front property and has shot for clients that anyone would drool over, like Coke to name one..... I'm pretty sure you do as you please also. I can tell you, he could care less what you or anyone on this site thinks...and would be more than happy to tell you in person...and don't let the dog bite you in your ass on the way out.

Who whoooooo?  Now I'm all curious. 

Aesthetic Photoworks wrote:
What are your thoughts on the increasing number of models having this on their profiles:

...

Do you even care ? Do you take it as an insult ?

Discuss

Not a problem for me. Not everyone joins websites like this one for strictly artistic, or extra-professional goals.

Some people need to make money via any means possible, and they feel that something like that filters offers that would waste their time.

I am not saying that it does or doesn't work, but it doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize the intended goal.

MN Photography wrote:

If a model had a great portfolio and a bunch of fans who might buy prints of her, I still might hire her, asshole or not.  I did a shoot with a woman a few years ago who was famous (within a niche) and had a fan base.  Her own agent warned me that she was difficult (OK, he actually used the B word).  She was, but I've sold a lot of prints from that shoot.

Really, if they show up and you get a few good photos, what's the difference?

LOLOLOLOL

Big A-Larger Than Life wrote:
If someone's so focused on what a job pays, there's nothing left brainwave-wise to allow for creativity on-set or in planning.

LOL seriously?  So Spielberg, Francesco Scavullo, Annie L., Giselle, Adriana Lima, or the plastic surgeon that created her boobs can't be creative?  Because money shuts off the creative center of the brain?

When you work on a commercial assignment, there are art directors, ad campaign execs, designers who book the photographer and style the assignment based on the end product they expect to get.

The photographer works for the client, not the other way around.

The CLIENT has had meetings, discussion groups with the CONCEPT that will be marketed to the owners of the Brand, Product or Service being sold.

The photographer is given guidelines in the best of cases, explicit directions in other cases, but there is a GOAL the CLIENT is looking to achieve.

Commercial photoshoots are not TRAINING CENTERS, they are PRODUCTIONS where there is a ton of money involved, primaries who have very little time to wait for ANYONE TO FIGURE THINGS OUT. That is why they hire professionals and not Vo-Tech photographers.

Photographers, Models, Stylists, Makeup Artists who are professionals understand this and they understand the value of EACH, EACH donating their time toward a TEST SHOOT where they all benefit from a relaxed, learning experience.

Dizeman wrote:
Gisele Bundchen, Cindy Crawford, Karolina Kurkova, Tyra Banks, Adriana Lima, Miranda Kerr, Stephanie Seymour all whenever they have free time seek out photographers for TFP/TF photoshoots.

bingo, hit the nail right on the head

the problem?

the photographers they seek out to do TFPs with are NOT on MM

there are very few 'hobbyist' photographers on MM who will pull some designer clothing, pay a good MUA, pay for a good studio with good lighting, or travel to a excellent location (with permits) just to do a TFP to improve THEIR book

so we are right back were we started, a bunch of hobbyist photographers and hobbyist models on MM playing pretend professional photo shoot with some 'sexy' outfits they bought in an adult book store, with each one bickering over who should be paid

the real professionals do not have this problem or argument, is my point

Big A-Larger Than Life wrote:

LOL seriously?  So Spielberg, Francesco Scavullo, Annie L., Giselle, Adriana Lima, or the plastic surgeon that created her boobs can't be creative?  Because money shuts off the creative center of the brain?

When someone is only focused on making a buck, they tend to be less open-minded and creative, I've always found with the photographers I've modeled for like that before shooting myself. This wasn't/isn't about the choice to not work on trade, It's (I believe) about being obnoxious about not working on trade. Or as I've seen some refer to it, "working for free". There's a difference between the two. If Cindy Crawford were to model for ME, it would be 'free' for ME. If I was to shoot someone who was on their first or second shoot ever, 5'5" @ 145 lbs, it would be 'free' for THEM. TF* isn't 'free' when the trade is more balanced. And I'm sure when they began, all those you've listed weren't paid-only. Or even 'paid' at all, necessarily. We're discussing the 'in-yo-face' banners, not the choice.

Danny
http://dbiphotography.co.cc
http://dbimagery.carbonmade.com

Dizeman wrote:
When you work on a commercial assignment, there are art directors, ad campaign execs, designers who book the photographer and style the assignment based on the end product they expect to get.

The photographer works for the client, not the other way around.

The CLIENT has had meetings, discussion groups with the CONCEPT that will be marketed to the owners of the Brand, Product or Service being sold.

The photographer is given guidelines in the best of cases, explicit directions in other cases, but there is a GOAL the CLIENT is looking to achieve.

Commercial photoshoots are not TRAINING CENTERS, they are PRODUCTIONS where there is a ton of money involved, primaries who have very little time to wait for ANYONE TO FIGURE THINGS OUT. That is why they hire professionals and not Vo-Tech photographers.

Photographers, Models, Stylists, Makeup Artists who are professionals understand this and they understand the value of EACH, EACH donating their time toward a TEST SHOOT where they all benefit from a relaxed, learning experience.

I'm well aware of all of that. 

But many models on MM aren't looking to book test shoots.  Many agency repped models on MM do freelance work on the side like art shoots and aren't looking for more test shoots.  Agencies often times already have plenty of photographers to suggest for test shoots. 

Plenty of models here do commercial or fashion work via their agency and do art or other genres via freelancing on the side.

Dizeman wrote:
Once again...

What is impossible for me to understand is why models imagine the photographer's time has no value whatsoever?

I have to wonder why the concept of paying a model for his or her time is expected when paying the photographer for his or her time is somehow unexpected? It just baffles smart people.

It all depends of course on the photographer whether his time has any value in the eyes of a model

DBI Photography wrote:

When someone is only focused on making a buck, they tend to be less open-minded and creative,

Who says that because someone is looking to make a buck they're not looking to make that buck doing something that they thoroughly ENJOY? 

Just because one seeks to make a buck doesn't mean they do it with a closed mind or lack of feeling.

Dizeman wrote:
I always find the ones that say, "NO NUDES!" then in their description, "NUDES FOR PAY ONLY!"

It just makes me laugh.

Me too.  I call that something other than photography.  :-))

Crystal Perido wrote:

right

if you're busy with paid work why should you be interested in TFP?

you are missing the point entirely..

It's not that you don't do TFP because you get paid work all of the time... it that you THINK TFP = Free.

That is what the pic is designed to make you think.. which is FALSE.

If you don't do TFP that's fine, but adding "I don't work for free" is retarded because NO ONE works for free... They are working for pictures, they are working for food, they are working for clothes but they ARE getting something.

Hence the TRADE part of it.

Don't do trade.. that's fine, but TFP is FAR from Free.

Big A-Larger Than Life wrote:

Who says that because someone is looking to make a buck they're not looking to make that buck doing something that they thoroughly ENJOY? 

Just because one seeks to make a buck doesn't mean they do it with a closed mind or lack of feeling.

right.................it would be an oxymoron to think otherwise

I'm always baffled by these photographers with a no TFP sign on their profile and half a dozen casting calls for TFP

Dizeman wrote:
Photographers, Models, Stylists, Makeup Artists who are professionals understand this and they understand the value of EACH, EACH donating their time toward a TEST SHOOT where they all benefit from a relaxed, learning experience.

+1

I don't charge actual models, nor do I pay them (not that some that aren't worth pay). I have rates for the noobs, because I'm mentoring them during the shoot. They are getting MORE than photography and editing alone. When I test with models (not models by name, but rather models), we work together (with an MUA usually) to create portfolio-enhancing results. It's only FREE when there's a drastic imbalance.

And KNOW WHAT? I guess I'm an (oxy)moron, because I DO work for free every month at least twice. This is one of those 'different strokes' or 'to each their own' things, on approaches. All I know is, taking a half-day to shoot a pure-newb for 'free' has wound me up with a few paid-shoots to date. And I'm only beginning to GET paid - so this is a pretty massive thing for me. But really, everyone is entitled to their own approach, and I don't believe I'm perfect enough to judge others.

Danny
http://dbiphotography.co.cc
http://dbimagery.carbonmade.com

Eric Lauritzen wrote:
I have zero problem with someone not wanting to do TFP so I'm neutral about that. When the indication that TF isn't an option includes hostility or posturing then it becomes a turn-off or red flag.

LOL so if a model puts it in 12 font Times New Roman, that's respectable, but if they put it in a jpeg while doing yoga at their desk, well THAT'S just a turn-off. 

Big A-Larger Than Life wrote:
I'm well aware of all of that. 

But many models on MM aren't looking to book test shoots.  Many agency repped models on MM do freelance work on the side like art shoots and aren't looking for more test shoots.  Agencies often times already have plenty of photographers to suggest for test shoots. 

Plenty of models here do commercial or fashion work via their agency and do art or other genres via freelancing on the side.

And then there's the MODELS whom would if not for the innovation of MM and OMP would be waiting at home for their 900 number to ring and the more than many whom if not for MM and OMP would be on a bus headed for Pahrump, NV.

And of course, as always... there are the guys, cameras and cash in hand, sniffing the cyber trail looking for photograph naked chicks on a railroad track.

Lets not forget THEM for the sake of ACCURACY.

NEITHER of which are concerned at all about building a successful portfolio except to attract like minded souls.

I suspect that little TRUTH won't be accepted well by those who identify with the facts of the matter. BEST BET IN VEGAS!

Dizeman wrote:
I always find the ones that say, "NO NUDES!" then in their description, "NUDES FOR PAY ONLY!"

It just makes me laugh.

We all know why that is..

Models get so many nudes when they DO do TF* nudes that they no longer NEED TF* nudes..

Everyone thinks since they did TF* nudes that they should continue "just for me"

Why do a concept over and over and over again for trade.. it's no longer needed.
So they say Nudes for Pay only because they have enough nudes to last a life time.

Does that mean they will never do TF again? not really, but I have had requests from people saying "I want X pic... Like the one in your portfolio".. WELL I already did that picture, do I need to do it again when I already have it?... so.. that concept requires pay.

Trading for something you don't need... that's retarded.
Trading for something you NEED... that's smart business.

Aesthetic Photoworks wrote:
Discuss

there comes a time when investment becomes a lost cause.  nothing shows that more than the concept of tf* and the value a photography session brings.  when it brings nothing more than trade it should be called what it is; a hobby.

people don't work for free.  people hobby for free.  those thinking otherwise don't really understand the difference between work and play, or, are just trying to justify a continuing investment that won't translate to any real return and that's where people get feelings hurt.  rare is it when the market doesn't decide, not so rare is the frustration it just ain't gonna happen.

when people can do tf* on their own terms due to "work" getting in the way, that's when they can say they've arrived.  until that time, just have fun and accept tf* as nothing more than that...or cut all loss and don't participate at all.

Extreme Body Art wrote:
We all know why that is..

Models get so many nudes when they DO do TF* nudes that they no longer NEED TF* nudes..

Everyone thinks since they did TF* nudes that they should continue "just for me"

Why do a concept over and over and over again for trade.. it's no longer needed.
So they say Nudes for Pay only because they have enough nudes to last a life time.

Does that mean they will never do TF again? not really, but I have had requests from people saying "I want X pic... Like the one in your portfolio".. WELL I already did that picture, do I need to do it again when I already have it?... so.. that concept requires pay.

Trading for something you don't need... that's retarded.
Trading for something you NEED... that's smart business.

Yes! We all know why that is. If they don't need any more nudes, why not just stop doing nudes?

Dizeman wrote:
...
I will gladly pay the model's ESTABLISHED RATES if the model agrees to pay MY ESTABLISHED RATES. I cannot imagine anyone would find that concept UNFAIR.

I totally understand your logic, but people seem to get all worked up because they do not like the rules of economics as they apply to MM.

Until Madison Avenue opens shop on MM, some members will continue to feel that their commercial success outside of MM transcends into the cyberworld.

This is more apparent in the modeling category, since there are simply so many hobbyist photographers falling over each other trying to hire models, in the hopes that it will give their work more legitimacy.  There are also some folks that do it for other purposes, but I won't get into that.

Just think about how quickly things would change, if advertising agencies became the predominant source of income for professional models and photographers on a site as this one.

You would see more professionalism, not only when it comes to profiles, but communications in general.

Of course that's the pipe dream of every networking website.  What about flakes, you ask? That's irrelevant.  Your reputation has a way of preceding you when money is at stake, and you will eventually not get any commercial jobs after word gets around that you are not reliable.

Extreme Body Art wrote:
.

Trading for something you don't need... that's retarded.
Trading for something you NEED... that's smart business.

and getting paid for what you want is REAL smart

heavyh20 wrote:
Sometimes I do what I want . . . the rest of the time, I do what I have to.

but you are not a model

Crystal Perido wrote:
but you are not a model

Lets be truthful, neither are half the posers on MM and OMP.

I won't use any names or monikers or labels of any kind, but let me say the following.

If you live long enough and I have... you will remember that this PHENOMENON is not new. It has just been REPACKAGED for the Internet.

It used to be salesmen, conventioneers and the average guy with $50 in his pocket could stop in any sleezy motel in any American city and if you asked the manager or pseu-do Concierge, okay, I went too far there... these types of motels did not know how to spell Concierge, but, if you asked the manager, they would usually for a fee direct you to a room where a MODEL errrrr.... yeah, that's it, MODEL was waiting and you could rent the Polaroid camera for say $20 and then pay $5 for each Polaroid photo you took of the errrrr.... MODEL naked.

No! I did not have the mis-dis-remiss-fortune of participating in such activities, I was merely AWARE.

Today, technology has killed the Polaroid, all but killed the shady motel room, but the MODELS are alive and well. They've found THE INTERNET!

*** Please do not confuse the MODELS I have described in the above prose as FASHION MODELS, MAGAZINE MODELS, CONVENTION MODELS, THE SERIOUS MODELS... I have nothing but respect for MODELS who hone their art, craft and business as MODELS.

But I am also aware that the very word MODEL has been stretch to the very limits of imagination to where it's almost unrecognizable in any real sense of the word.

Do I have any REAL ISSUE with anyone doing anything they want? NOPE! I really don't, people who know me personally understand that.

What I do think is... I like to be honest and calling things as they are, not as we imagine them to be.

I see many, many MODELS having fun with this new resource and for the first time getting a chance to feel good about themselves with so many photographers scratching and clawing to take their photos.

I SUPPORT THAT!

Then I see strippers who call themselves MODELS and I guess there are some that just don't care, I know I don't... except again, I like knowing the difference.

Sometimes I think there should be a new classifications added to the drop down list on MM and OMP.

Model
Stripper
Hooker
Photographer
Pervert
Makeup Artist
Stylist
Pretend Modeling Agency Owner

People will get mad at that post. I can hear them now... "Shhhhhhh...! Hey! Knock that off, we have a good thing going here!"

I know! I know!


PS, and with that... I will try my best to refrain from further posts on this topic. I think it has run it's course and is becoming redundant.

Dizeman wrote:
I am a Professional Photographer and have been for over 35 years, my client list is extensive, I have been published 1,188 times in 80 magazines and newspapers worldwide. http://dizeman.com/bio/

I believe in being FAIR, SENSIBLE and HONEST, so when I see a model demanding payment for a TEST SHOOT which is what they have been called in the industry for 80 years... it somewhat confuses me that the model expects to get paid on a non-commercial photo shoot that benefits the model, hair stylist, photographer and makeup artist equally and yet for some strange and totally illogical reason, the model does not expect that anyone else on the shoot get paid.

In fairness, if a model is going to get paid for a non-commercial photo shoot that benefits them, the photographer and others participating in the photo shoot should be paid also.

Now! Having said that, OF COURSE, OF COURSE, OF COURSE if the photo shoot is COMMERCIAL in nature and the photographer is being paid by A CLIENT and the images are going to be LICENSED to a CLIENT FOR USE, then EVERYONE SHOULD BE PAID, including the model, photographer, associate services and assistants.


That just makes sense!


There is a time and a place to be paid for your time as a model.

Believe me I know your time is VALUABLE and I respect that. I know there are other things you could be doing, so to take time out of your day to model is often inconvenient.

What is impossible for me to understand is why models imagine the photographer's time has no value whatsoever?

I have to wonder why the concept of paying a model for his or her time is expected when paying the photographer for his or her time is somehow unexpected? It just baffles smart people. It must be that FUZZY MATH I heard so much about when I was younger.

My fee is rather low, it has been the same for over 30 years, I realize I should have raised my fee to compensate for inflation and the cost of living, but the market became saturated with GUYS WITH CAMERAS pretending to be Professional Photographers or some other creature of the night.

My rates today are the same as they were when I shot for…

NASA, President George H. W. Bush, others listed here... NASA, President George Bush, Andre Agassi, Jackie Gleason, H. Ross Perot, Catherine Bach, David Hasselhoff, Burt Reynolds, Sally Field, Jerry Reed, Jerry Lee Lewis, B.B.King, William Shatner, Adam West, Burt Ward, Bill Walton, Reggie Theus, Larry Bird, Debbie Reynolds, Tom Jones, Rip Taylor, Sammy Davis Jr., Altovise (Gore) Davis, Rich Little, Melinda (First Lady of Magic), Lance Burton (Magician), Sin City Sinners, Brent Muscat, Rob Cournoyer, Todd Kerns, Mike Ellis, Mike Szuter, D, that's right... just D, Doug Aldrich (Whitesnake & Dio), Carmine Appice (Vanila Fudge, Rod Stweart, Ozzy Ozbourne), Vinny Appice (Black Sabbath, Dio, Heaven & Hell), Bobbie Brown (model, Actress, star of Cherry Pie video), Jimmy Crespo (Aerosmith), Dirty (The Spyderz), Jerry Dixon (Warrant), Blas Elias (Slaughter), Dave Ellefson (Megadeth), Mickey Finn (Jetboy), Chris Frazier (Whitesnake, Steve Vai), Ron Jeremy (Adult Film Legend), Ron Keel (Keel, Steeler), Bruce Kulick (Kiss, Grand Funk Railroad), Kyle Kyle (Bang Tango), Jeff LaBar (Cinderella), Phil Lewis (L.A. Guns), Dario Lorina (Jani Lane, Lizzy Borden), Annabella Lwinn (Bow Wow Wow), Tony Montana (Great White), Frankie Muriel (King of The Hill), Michael Olivieri (Leatherwolf), Tera Patrick (Adult Film Star), Vinnie Paul (Pantera), Jizzy Pearl (Love/Hate, Ratt), Dee Snider (Twisted Sister), Slim Jim Phantom (The Stray Cats), Jeff Pilson (Dokken & Foreigner), Steve Riley (L.A. Guns, W.A.S.P.), Evan Seinfeld (Biohazard, Supergroup), Paul Shortino (Rough Cutt, Quiet Riot), Sylvain Sylvain (New York Dolls), Tiffany (Former Teen Sensation), Erik Turner (Warrant), Lez Warner (The Cult), Randy West (Adult Film Legend), Kip Winger (Winger), Sami Yaffa (Hanoi Rocks, NY Dolls), Hailey Young (Adult Film Star), Stix Zadinia (Steel Panther), King Kobra, Carol~Lyn, BABYLON, DANGEROUS CURVES, DRIVER, REDLINE and others...

A few of the 80 publications my work has appeared in are listed here... Better Homes & Gardens, Ski International Magazine, Doll International Magazine, Nevada Magazine, TWA In Flight Magazine, The Las Vegas Review Journal, The Las Vegas Sun, Las Vegas Magazine, Las Vegan Magazine, Henderson Home News, Boulder City News, Green Valley News, Trucking Magazine, The Daily Times/Delmarva Times, Entertainment News Magazine, Las Vegas Woman Magazine, Southwestern Art Magazine, Billings Gazette, American News Service, French Vogue, Vegas Rocks Magazine...


http://dizeman.com/bio/


Jon Dize aka DIZEMAN contracted hourly rate is...

$300 an hour plus all billable expenses including model fees, location fees, permits, accommodations for all assistants, assistant fees, equipment rental etc.


Contracted blocks of time:

1/2 Day Rate/4 shooting hours is $1,100 plus all billable expenses as listed above.

Full day rate/7 shooting hours/1 hour lunch is $2,200 plus all billable expenses as listed above.

10 hour block/8 shooting hours/2 hours for lunches is $2,400 plus all billable expenses as listed above.

All rates above include NO PHOTOS! THAT'S RIGHT! NO PHOTOS! The rates are for LABOR & EXPENSES ONLY. All image use is to be negotiated independantly depending on the licensing requirements of the clients.


So, when a model expects to be paid for a TEST SHOOT in which all involved benefit from the images created or captured, it seems logical and fair in every sense of the word that all involved be paid also.

I will gladly pay the model's ESTABLISHED RATES if the model agrees to pay MY ESTABLISHED RATES. I cannot imagine anyone would find that concept UNFAIR.


But hey! Whatever you can get away with, I say go for it. If there are NITWITS out there calling themselves Professional Photographers who agree their time is WORTHLESS while the model's time has VALUE on a TEST PHOTO SHOOT, then I say TAKE THEM FOR ALL THEY HAVE! EMPTY THEIR POCKETS!


It's just not how it is done in the REAL WORLD OF PROFESSIONAL MODELING/PHOTOGRAPHY.


I sincerely wish you all the happiness, goodness and success life has to offer.



Jon Dize aka DIZEMAN (Google either, I am easy to find.)

[email protected]

http://www.meetup.com/members/10175046/photos/

http://dizeman.com/vince_neil_dizeman/


PS, again, my issue is not that I do not think your time is valuable, it most certainly is. The irony is that you and other models on MM and OMP seem to imagine the photographer's time is absolutely worthless.

In nearly 40 years as a working Professional Photographer, more than 1.7 million images archived, assignments in 47 U.S. States and four foreign countries... I have never heard of such a thing until digital came along and everyone with a camera professes to be a photographer.

It reminds me of a bumper sticker I read once that declared, "Owning an expensive camera does not make you a Photographer... it makes you an expensive camera owner!"

I think I will coin a new bumper sticker that declares, "Posing for photos does not make you a MODEL... it makes you a POSER!"

No personal offense meant by that, it just popped into my head and seemed rational and accurate enough. You know deep down it's true!


Again... GOOD LUCK! WISH YOU WELL!

Jon

You had me at Jizzy Pearl!

H3D PHOTOGRAPHER wrote:
I find it comical that anyone would get so bent out of shape about something like this on a profile.

Some people skim through profiles & don't/can't/refuse to read what's there... instead they go straight to the pictures & then start asking for trade/collaborations or any other word they have for freebie.... a logo that says NO TFP, work for free ... etc gets the message across loud & clear. What's the problem with that?

Its interesting that someone who trolls in the forum "would you shoot nekkid with me?", "How much would you pay me for (fill in the blank)" instead of posting a legit casting call doesn't get the same grief as someone that posts this logo on their profile.... RFLMAO

+1

Dizeman wrote:

And then there's the MODELS whom would if not for the innovation of MM and OMP would be waiting at home for their 900 number to ring and the more than many whom if not for MM and OMP would be on a bus headed for Pahrump, NV.

And of course, as always... there are the guys, cameras and cash in hand, sniffing the cyber trail looking for photograph naked chicks on a railroad track.

Lets not forget THEM for the sake of ACCURACY.

NEITHER of which are concerned at all about building a successful portfolio except to attract like minded souls.

I suspect that little TRUTH won't be accepted well by those who identify with the facts of the matter. BEST BET IN VEGAS!

I got 3 words for you! Why So Serious? That's like watching an Arena Football  game and complaining it's not an NFL game. Both leagues pay football, but the rules in the NFL are different from the rules in the Arena Football. That's a whole another discussion. People join this site for different reasons. Therefore, you'll run into people who have different ideas of what's important to them. Instead of wasting your time and energy complaining about those who do business different from what you're used to, Focus your energy on being the best out of there and not be so pre-occupied with other people's action.

Dizeman wrote:
I am a Professional Photographer and have been for over 35 years, my client list is extensive, I have been published 1,188 times in 80 magazines and newspapers worldwide. http://dizeman.com/bio/

I believe in being FAIR, SENSIBLE and HONEST, so when I see a model demanding payment for a TEST SHOOT which is what they have been called in the industry for 80 years... it somewhat confuses me that the model expects to get paid on a non-commercial photo shoot that benefits the model, hair stylist, photographer and makeup artist equally and yet for some strange and totally illogical reason, the model does not expect that anyone else on the shoot get paid.

blah, blah, blah...

Bro, with this preamble I expected big things...  Big, big things...

It's this type of arrogance that causes some models to use that image.

Dizeman wrote:
. . .

My rates today are the same as they were when I shot for…

NASA, President George H. W. Bush, others listed here... NASA, President George Bush, Andre Agassi, Jackie Gleason, H. Ross Perot, Catherine Bach, David Hasselhoff, Burt Reynolds, Sally Field, Jerry Reed, Jerry Lee Lewis, B.B.King, William Shatner, Adam West, Burt Ward, Bill Walton, Reggie Theus, Larry Bird, Debbie Reynolds, Tom Jones, Rip Taylor, Sammy Davis Jr., Altovise (Gore) Davis, Rich Little, Melinda (First Lady of Magic), Lance Burton (Magician), Sin City Sinners, Brent Muscat, Rob Cournoyer, Todd Kerns, Mike Ellis, Mike Szuter, D, that's right... just D, Doug Aldrich (Whitesnake & Dio), Carmine Appice (Vanila Fudge, Rod Stweart, Ozzy Ozbourne), Vinny Appice (Black Sabbath, Dio, Heaven & Hell), Bobbie Brown (model, Actress, star of Cherry Pie video), Jimmy Crespo (Aerosmith), Dirty (The Spyderz), Jerry Dixon (Warrant), Blas Elias (Slaughter), Dave Ellefson (Megadeth), Mickey Finn (Jetboy), Chris Frazier (Whitesnake, Steve Vai), Ron Jeremy (Adult Film Legend), Ron Keel (Keel, Steeler), Bruce Kulick (Kiss, Grand Funk Railroad), Kyle Kyle (Bang Tango), Jeff LaBar (Cinderella), Phil Lewis (L.A. Guns), Dario Lorina (Jani Lane, Lizzy Borden), Annabella Lwinn (Bow Wow Wow), Tony Montana (Great White), Frankie Muriel (King of The Hill), Michael Olivieri (Leatherwolf), Tera Patrick (Adult Film Star), Vinnie Paul (Pantera), Jizzy Pearl (Love/Hate, Ratt), Dee Snider (Twisted Sister), Slim Jim Phantom (The Stray Cats), Jeff Pilson (Dokken & Foreigner), Steve Riley (L.A. Guns, W.A.S.P.), Evan Seinfeld (Biohazard, Supergroup), Paul Shortino (Rough Cutt, Quiet Riot), Sylvain Sylvain (New York Dolls), Tiffany (Former Teen Sensation), Erik Turner (Warrant), Lez Warner (The Cult), Randy West (Adult Film Legend), Kip Winger (Winger), Sami Yaffa (Hanoi Rocks, NY Dolls), Hailey Young (Adult Film Star), Stix Zadinia (Steel Panther), King Kobra, Carol~Lyn, BABYLON, DANGEROUS CURVES, DRIVER, REDLINE and others...

Just for the sake of full disclosure: can you clarify whether you were commissioned by President Bush or a publication to shoot a portrait of the President OR were you simply one of a couple of thousand other credentialed press photographers who snapped shots of the President on a Rope-Line somewhere?

I am not suggesting you're lying about your credentials but I do think that it would be helpful, in understanding your perspective, to understand exactly what you do (did?) for a living. 

I went to your website and didn't see any studio portraits of the President.  All of your celebrity images appear to be candid Papparazzo shots.  I'm not disparaging those people who earn a living as Papparazzi but I DO think it alters my impression of their view on TF* photo shoots; which, as I think we can all agree are VERY different from rope-line shooting.

Dizeman wrote:
Gisele Bundchen, Cindy Crawford, Karolina Kurkova, Tyra Banks, Adriana Lima, Miranda Kerr, Stephanie Seymour all whenever they have free time seek out photographers for TFP/TF photoshoots.

Chili wrote:
bingo, hit the nail right on the head

this is a myth.  one that perpetuates itself in every one of these threads.

none of them shoot without a team and the team does not work tf*.  those at that level have an objective in mind and it isn't to play let's take pictures.  to think otherwise is clueless.