John Allan wrote:
@OP: I'm missing the part where this effects you.

He can't get "naive young llamas" to shoot adult material with him for TF

John Jebbia wrote:

They don't. They want the $$ without the consequences.

I get that.  So if they want to be paid to pose nude but do not want the pix published these models were never going to work for OP if he wants to publish.  Totally different client base.

John Jebbia wrote:
"I used to be able to fuck llamas for free. And then some dirt bag came along and started paying them and so now they all want me to pay them too."

Is that the real issue at hand?

G Anderson Photo wrote:
It is my business because good models that I planned on using for paid LEGIT nude and adult modeling gigs are "taken off the market" because this photog convinces them to "keep things private with him"    There is not much I can do about it.  I am just venting out of frustration.  I try hard to make sure I do everything in a legal manner and try to be familiar with all the laws governing nude, adult and hardcore shoots.   What this photog is doing is unethical in my opinion and is probably illegal.   The models are definitely consenting to the sex so there is no issue there, but I don't think they realize they may be guilty of prostitution in the eyes of the law.

I am not sure if you are more upset because of the activities, or the fact that no one seems to know (or care about them).

Stop trying to protect other adults from themselves.

John Jebbia wrote:
OP. Question. Would you be ok with this guy's practices if he wasn't paying them?

I'll bet he'd be more ok if he had the resources to do the same thing.

G Anderson Photo wrote:
So, I know of a photographer here on MM that pays models a very high rate for what appears to be artistic nude photos.  A few of those photos are posted on his port for each model to "make it look good".  However I know from models that have worked with him, that there is full hardcore photos/videos produced that he agrees to "never publish".  This makes it hard to recruit models that he works with for legitimate nude and adult modeling gigs as he tells them that they "don't want to have that stuff published just keep it private".   These models are generally new models looking for paid work who have no other history of doing porn or doing escorting.   In my opinion this photog is turning paid nude models into his own personal prostitutes.  I appreciate opinions on this.

When I read this I feel a hand grenade has been tossed into a crowded room. Your damaging the photographer and the models who he has worked with just a rumor. My view is simple If you are really concerned that a law has been violated or the safety or well being of the models are in question contact the authorities. If a MM policy is being violated contact them.

This one of those treads that should die quietly.

G Anderson Photo wrote:
Thanks for all the replies and opinions.  I know for a fact that he has sex with the models because he has told me so and at least two models that have worked with him have told me so.  My understanding of the laws concerning hardcore shoots is that if the person paying the female model is also the one having sex with her and there is no intent to publish the content, then it is not porn but rather prostitution on camera.

I think I need to get out my Geiger counter as this white knight is glowing so brightly he must be radioactive.

G Anderson Photo wrote:
Thanks for all the replies and opinions.  I know for a fact that he has sex with the models because he has told me so and at least two models that have worked with him have told me so.  My understanding of the laws concerning hardcore shoots is that if the person paying the female model is also the one having sex with her and there is no intent to publish the content, then it is not porn but rather prostitution on camera.

So why are you reporting it here?  Seems to be a matter for the Madison Police Dept.

G Anderson Photo wrote:
Thanks for all the replies and opinions.  I know for a fact that he has sex with the models because he has told me so and at least two models that have worked with him have told me so.  My understanding of the laws concerning hardcore shoots is that if the person paying the female model is also the one having sex with her and there is no intent to publish the content, then it is not porn but rather prostitution on camera.

Wait...you know for a fact because HE told you so? Dude, guys have been lying about getting pussy since caveman days.

You're understanding of the laws might be amiss. Schedule an appt with your attorney and consult with him.

G Anderson Photo wrote:
In my opinion this photog is turning paid nude models into his own personal prostitutes.  I appreciate opinions on this.

Assuming your information is true and accurate (which I'm skeptical of), my opinion is that it's not possible for him to turn them into anything.  They make their own choices, and they live with them, and it's really none of your business.

Tony Coast wrote:
geez, i feel bad for the photographer who started the entire chat.  it seems everybody is telling you to shut up or mind your own business.

i think everyone should relax for a moment and determine whether you have a problem  with the so-called prostitution photographer, or whether you're just curious for people's opinions.  as a positive-minded person that doesn't like to assume anything negative or uncool about another, i'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and go with the second option.

i'm sure there are people -- models, photographers, etc. -- that turn to prostitution.  let's keep in mind prostitution is not (necessarily) the same thing as rape.  if the guy is into that sort of thing, that's honestly his business.  likewise if the models agree to it.

in an industry where dropping your panties is the means to producing work, any and every model should develop a strong mind to not be easily influenced into bed.  if he/ she does, perhaps it's morally shameful for the photographer, nonetheless it is not rape on the latter's behalf either.

so yea, i do agree with all of the photographers here telling you to mind your own business.  at the same, i don't think they are any more reason-minded then you are -- they sound almost as if they're doing the same thing, hiring prostitutes.  (or however you want to describe it, though somebody here quoted state law that classifies it as such.)

i think you pose(d) an interesting question worthy of discussion, and i feel bad so many people just jumped at your throat.  the people that yell "not cool!" at others are just as uncool.

best, Tony

G Anderson Photo wrote:
There are many details on this situation that I have not filled in here because I have better things to do with my time than type long detailed explanations on here that people with poor reading comprehension seem to have trouble with.

LoL, you tell us you've purposely left important details out and then accuse us of having poor reading comprehension skills?

Ummm.... ok.

G Anderson Photo wrote:
Those of you with 25,000 plus posts telling me to mind my own business?  Well hmmmm...with that many posts you seem to REALLY be concerned with being in other peoples business.   Have a nice day!

Dude, the last thing I want you to do is mind your own business, I want you to keep posting.  It's fun to watch.


Pay the models you shoot with a fair wage and then treat them respectfully.  You'll be amazed at how many problems you won't have.  The other guy is not affecting your business in the least unless you choose to let him.  In the end the only person responsible for your success or failure is you.

salvatori. wrote:
I am always amazed at these threads, that seem to pop up every couple of weeks...

A photographer becomes the confidant of many young models and gets to hear all these lurid stories about the sexual escapades the models endure at the hands of some perverted photographer.

Why am I upset?

Because I have to pay $4.95 a minute to get a woman to talk dirty to me, and some guys just have all the luck, I guess..

O_o

Ray Cornett wrote:
Prostitution is a big word. It does not just mean sex for money. If you see the various definitions of Prostitution it can me doing ANY service for money or personal gain. So, anyone who has a job or gets paid for anything they do is a prostitute.

not to the law but ok

eos3_300 wrote:

I lol'd for real.

G Anderson Photo wrote:
Thank you!  This was the kind of post I was looking for when I posted. 
I had read some other threads on here discussing the issue of prostitution by models on here and thought it might be worth it to have an intelligent discussion on this angle of it.   

There are many details on this situation that I have not filled in here because I have better things to do with my time than type long detailed explanations on here that people with poor reading comprehension seem to have trouble with. 

I know the laws concerning this and know this is illegal.  I have no intention of reporting it to authorities as it is not my business to do so. 
I also have no intention of reporting it to MM as this is not my website.  It is their problem.   

Back to minding my own business here.  It will probably be a while before I post on here again.  Those of you with 25,000 plus posts telling me to mind my own business?  Well hmmmm...with that many posts you seem to REALLY be concerned with being in other peoples business.   Have a nice day!

If you post a thread asking a question or expressing a concern and inviting opinion, people will mostly rely on what your provide, as they are not auditioning for the role of Internet Detective. You jump around in search of another premise to justify your concerns when challenged and then in a familiar gesture on the Internet you tell us in your fashion that you're too busy to provide accurate and informative answers, rather you hint at darker secrets which cannot be bestowed upon the horde of unworthies who surround you as you just do not have time.

Essentially, people who told you that you're overly concerned, to the point of being a busybody, are people not worth listening to, except that you did ask for their opinion, but obviously you only wanted supportive opinions. You really asked for it. You dismiss experienced people's advice.

You could have just written the post like this: "If you disagree with my concern, you're wrong and I don't want to hear it. Only busybodies need reply."

G Anderson Photo wrote:
Thank you!  This was the kind of post I was looking for when I posted. 
I had read some other threads on here discussing the issue of prostitution by models on here and thought it might be worth it to have an intelligent discussion on this angle of it.   

There are many details on this situation that I have not filled in here because I have better things to do with my time than type long detailed explanations on here that people with poor reading comprehension seem to have trouble with. 

I know the laws concerning this and know this is illegal.  I have no intention of reporting it to authorities as it is not my business to do so. 
I also have no intention of reporting it to MM as this is not my website.  It is their problem.   

Back to minding my own business here.  It will probably be a while before I post on here again.  Those of you with 25,000 plus posts telling me to mind my own business?  Well hmmmm...with that many posts you seem to REALLY be concerned with being in other peoples business.   Have a nice day!

You are only interested in opinions that agree with you!   

G Anderson Photo wrote:

It is my business because good models that I planned on using for paid LEGIT nude and adult modeling gigs are "taken off the market" because this photog convinces them to "keep things private with him"    There is not much I can do about it.  I am just venting out of frustration.  I try hard to make sure I do everything in a legal manner and try to be familiar with all the laws governing nude, adult and hardcore shoots.   What this photog is doing is unethical in my opinion and is probably illegal.   The models are definitely consenting to the sex so there is no issue there, but I don't think they realize they may be guilty of prostitution in the eyes of the law.

I'm beginning to see a trend that the nice guys get disrespected the most in forums.  "Mind your own business", "Shut up", and things of that nature.  All people seem to care about is what they can get away with.  Ethics have gone out the window.  It's unfortunate.

John Jebbia wrote:
"I used to be able to fuck models for free. And then some dirt bag came along and started paying them and so now they all want me to pay them too."

Is that the real issue at hand?

haha, yeah back in the day there was
TF* nudes with new models,
then there was pay for nudes and sometimes sex,
The goal then becomes to be skilled enough to get TFSex 

OP...
Seriously tho, if this affects your "selection" of naive nude model prospects then I would suggest paying for a couple nude models, ones that are experienced that can help you improve your craft and give you good enough images and a better portfolio to bargain with.... unless you are okay with shooting inexperienced nude models for free.
Sounds like the model is just smarting up, maybe she is giving you "her" market price for you to shoot her nude and it doesn't matter what she did with other photographers before you.

Sounds like jealousy that you were't the first. Either way what they did is NONE of your business.

Small Fruit Pits wrote:
$20 says the OP will make another post, after what was posted 7 minutes ago.

Yes!   

Small Fruit Pits wrote:
$20 says the OP will make another post, after what was posted 7 minutes ago.

I hope you are right. He indicated that there are many details he has not as yet disclosed. Ending like this is sort of a cliffhanger.

Art Silva Photography wrote:

haha, yeah back in the day there was
TF* nudes with new models,
then there was pay for nudes and sometimes sex,
The goal then becomes to be skilled enough to get TFSex 

OP...
Seriously tho, if this affects your "selection" of naive nude model prospects then I would suggest paying for a couple nude models, ones that are experienced that can help you improve your craft and give you good enough images and a better portfolio to bargain with.... unless you are okay with shooting inexperienced nude models for free.
Sounds like the model is just smarting up, maybe she is giving you "her" market price for you to shoot her nude and it doesn't matter what she did with other photographers before you.

Sounds like jealousy that you were't the first. Either way what they did is NONE of your business.

Tony Coast wrote:
geez, i feel bad for the photographer who started the entire chat.  it seems everybody is telling you to shut up or mind your own business.

i think everyone should relax for a moment and determine whether you have a problem  with the so-called prostitution photographer, or whether you're just curious for people's opinions.  as a positive-minded person that doesn't like to assume anything negative or uncool about another, i'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and go with the second option.

i'm sure there are people -- models, photographers, etc. -- that turn to prostitution.  let's keep in mind prostitution is not (necessarily) the same thing as rape.  if the guy is into that sort of thing, that's honestly his business.  likewise if the models agree to it.

in an industry where dropping your panties is the means to producing work, any and every model should develop a strong mind to not be easily influenced into bed.  if he/ she does, perhaps it's morally shameful for the photographer, nonetheless it is not rape on the latter's behalf either.

so yea, i do agree with all of the photographers here telling you to mind your own business.  at the same, i don't think they are any more reason-minded then you are -- they sound almost as if they're doing the same thing, hiring prostitutes.  (or however you want to describe it, though somebody here quoted state law that classifies it as such.)

i think you pose(d) an interesting question worthy of discussion, and i feel bad so many people just jumped at your throat.  the people that yell "not cool!" at others are just as uncool.

best, Tony

It's good to see I'm not the only one who feels bad about this sort of thing.  I was beginning to lose hope.  Really people, it's ok to think about other people's feelings before you get all ballsy on the internet where nobody can touch you for being an inconsiderate (fill in blank here).  Don't worry, you won't be accused of being "nice" or anything.  Holy crap...What a bunch of vultures there are in these forums.  Maybe I should switch career fields...?
Now, it's quite possible that what the photographer is doing is legal and if you are worried about the models being "bought off" or "sold out" it is unfortunate that there is really nothing you can do about that (if he is within his rights as their photographer).  If indeed that is part of your concern then I commend you for having the heart to do something about it.  If not (and you are only worried about yourself), then you are not much different than the people telling you to "mind your own business".

Jeffrey M Fletcher wrote:

I hope you are right. He indicated that there are many details he has not as yet disclosed. Ending like this is sort of a cliffhanger.

See?

G Anderson Photo wrote:
This is where there is a LACK of reading comprehension.  Where did I ever say I was shooting models nude TF.   Just for the record.  I have NEVER shot a model nude TF.  I ALWAYS pay them so I own the photos outright.   Can you all say that?

I stated CLEARLY in my post that I offered legit PAID shoots. Go back and re-read my posts.   In the case of at least 2 models, I shot the models FIRST, then spent a lot of time selling follow-up shoots only to have the model disappear because the photog in question "took her private".
So, based on the comments on here I am supposed to pay the model MORE than he did and offer to NOT sell the pics.   From a business standpoint, WHY on earth would I want to do that?

I will sit back now and watch all the speculative posts on how I am jealous, how i am doing this to get laid, how I am cheap, etc. etc.  It is entertaining!

First off, the first light hearted paragraph was NOT for you, I was replying to the quote.

Second, You are NOT clear of your intentions in this whole rant. Many here are confused to why this matters soooo much.
My second paragraph is addressed to you tho but I'll break it down to simple terms;
The model(s) maybe [whatever the preceding cause was] has figured things out that she has now set a rate to what you or any photographer has to offer her whether she has improved since your FIRST shoot or that she is smart to the fact that nude photographers are a risk enough to either charge you or not work with you... nothing you can do except to accept her terms as it now stands.

edit,
If you feel strongly and have proof that a photographer here on MM has broken standards of business here then CAM him otherwise just leave it alone and shoot who you can. Sometime things work out nicely and sometimes they don't.