Forums > General Industry > What do you think I'm doing with my work???

Photographer

Don-Jones

Posts: 302

Memphis, Tennessee, US

Actually that is not really a question I'm addressing to any of you... more of a statement because I'm aggravated. 

Hear recently I had a gallery approach me to use some of my work in an exhibit.  We went over the work they wanted to use and started finalizing things.  So I decide to contact the models and tell them the happy news that their work will be printed and featured.... well guess what, not all of them were too happy.

The strangest thing is one of the models that was involved in the work was not financially compensated.  She's a close friend and not a model.  Did it for fun, but talked with her about it and she's thrilled to death that her work is getting used.  Then on the other hand, one of the models that I paid, quite well I might add, is the one pissed off.

She signed the release, she knew the terms.... so that part doesn't matter. 

But what I do have to ask is what do models think I'm doing?  I pay a model up front in the hopes that I will be able to recover the costs (and if I'm lucky a profit) at some point down the road.  It doesn't always happen.  I'm just astounded by the fact she was upset I was actually going to make my money back or whatever it was she was actually pissed about.

I guess a lot of models just assume that all the photographer is doing is putting stuff in their portfolio.  I don't know.  Just a future note to whom it may concern: If it is costing me money to take a photo, I'm gonna damn well try to make money from it.

Jan 07 13 10:57 am Link

Photographer

ontherocks

Posts: 22606

Salem, Oregon, US

if they signed a release giving you rights (or you had the rights because you were copyright holder) then they have no legal reason to complain. i think we all assume the other guy is getting rich when that may not be the case at all. if i did make a lot of money off a particular model i might look to at least give her a nice "thank you" even if legally i didn't owe her anything.

some models and photographers negotiate profit-sharing arrangements.

and i'm surprised that the models didn't see value in being able to say "i'm a gallery model!" maybe take some pictures so they can see themselves on display.

Jan 07 13 11:27 am Link

Photographer

KonstantKarma

Posts: 2513

Hickory, North Carolina, US

Her loss. I'd be thrilled.

Jan 07 13 11:31 am Link

Model

The Original Sin

Posts: 13894

Louisville, Kentucky, US

All models are crazy. big_smile

Jan 07 13 11:55 am Link

Model

DivaEroticus

Posts: 14716

Fayetteville, Arkansas, US

I'd be thrilled.  You've got some really nice work.

Jan 07 13 12:58 pm Link

Photographer

Don-Jones

Posts: 302

Memphis, Tennessee, US

Well that was the point of contacting the models that are involved.  I'll be attending... and was going to try to get some photos of the exhibit to show them. 

In the past I've worked out special contracts with models... they take as smaller "up-front" payment in exchange for a percentage from prints sales.  But they usually forgo that since it can be a year or longer before I see a penny from some material.   

Perhaps I just took it too much as an insult.  I'm happy to see models I work with succeed and get published.  But I usually know how the conversation is going to go when the first thing the model asks "well how much money are you going to make"....

Jan 07 13 02:08 pm Link

Model

Julia Francesca

Posts: 2365

Maumee, Ohio, US

lol wow.

Jan 07 13 02:11 pm Link

Photographer

Solas

Posts: 9537

Toronto, Ontario, Canada

why exactly is she pissed? hmm

that's weird.

Jan 07 13 02:18 pm Link

Photographer

D S P

Posts: 510

Portland, Oregon, US

Congratulations on your exhibit!

Your situation is a perfect example of why model releases are needed.

Again, congrats!

Jan 07 13 02:29 pm Link

Photographer

Don-Jones

Posts: 302

Memphis, Tennessee, US

Karl Johnston wrote:
why exactly is she pissed? hmm

That's the million dollar question.  I gave her details of the project, told her it would require a full release with no restrictions.  She gave me a rate and I paid it for the duration of the project.

Jan 07 13 02:43 pm Link

Photographer

Maxximages

Posts: 2042

Los Angeles, California, US

Don-Jones wrote:
But I usually know how the conversation is going to go when the first thing the model asks "well how much money are you going to make"....

She wanted more money or thought you did not pay her enough.

I figure if I pay a model before I know what I am doing with the pics then any profit is mine as I am the one that took the risk as to whether or not a profit will be realized.

Jan 08 13 11:09 am Link

Photographer

M Pandolfo Photography

Posts: 12116

Tampa, Florida, US

Don-Jones wrote:
Then on the other hand, one of the models that I paid, quite well I might add, is the one pissed off.

Of course she is. She's pissed off because she wanted to be the one making the money in the exchange. It's all well and good when you were paying for her services and she was the only one profiting. A lot of models view that as the entire transaction.

Photographer pays. Model performs the shoot. Photographer puts some pretty pictures on the internet. End of transaction.

She's pissed off because, now that YOU have a chance to profit, the mentality changes to "how dare you use MY images to make money!" like it's some sort of abuse of the original agreement.

I'd be shocked if she didn't feel entitled to some of that profit. Some people are very self-absorbed.

Jan 08 13 11:21 am Link

Photographer

M Pandolfo Photography

Posts: 12116

Tampa, Florida, US

Karl Johnston wrote:
why exactly is she pissed? hmm

that's weird.

Greed.

How dare a photographer try to make money. SHE gets paid. Not the other way around. I guarantee she feels she should have charged more for that shoot and also feels entitled to further compensation now that the photographer can make some money.

There is no logic. But a lack of logic has never been an obstacle for many.

Jan 08 13 11:26 am Link

Photographer

SME

Posts: 21033

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US

Did she say why she wasn't happy?

Jan 08 13 11:35 am Link

Model

Paige Morgan

Posts: 4058

New York, New York, US

Seems a ridiculous thing to be upset about....did she tl;dr the release documents?

Even then, she was paid, and signed the release. No reason to be upset.

People confuse me.

I'd think a photo I appeared in hanging in a gallery would be awesome, and would try to make the opening reception to congratulate the photographer.

Jan 08 13 11:42 am Link

guide forum

Model

Damianne

Posts: 15975

Austin, Texas, US

I have a verbal agreement with all my photographers

If they make a million billion dollars off my photo, I request that one of those millions be sent to me.
Otherwise, I'm pretty adamant all the profits should go to the photographer and am not upset if they sell a print. In fact I think it's pretty goddamn badass when they do.

Jan 08 13 12:02 pm Link

Model

MelissaAnn

Posts: 3956

Seattle, Washington, US

Damianne wrote:
I have a verbal agreement with all my photographers

If they make a million billion dollars off my photo, I request that one of those millions be sent to me.
Otherwise, I'm pretty adamant all the profits should go to the photographer and am not upset if they sell a print. In fact I think it's pretty goddamn badass when they do.

Yeah, pretty much this.

Jan 08 13 12:06 pm Link

Photographer

Brooklyn Bridge Images

Posts: 9759

Brooklyn, New York, US

I know the answer but cant say here

Jan 08 13 12:28 pm Link

Model

Jordan Bunniie

Posts: 1693

Los Angeles, California, US

She be crazy.

Jan 08 13 12:34 pm Link

Model

Isis22

Posts: 2567

Muncie, Indiana, US

Not everyone is going to be happy with your success. Don't take it personally.

Jan 08 13 12:46 pm Link

Photographer

Drew Smith Photography

Posts: 5210

Nottingham, England, United Kingdom

Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:
I know the answer but cant say here

Then be hypothetical, otherwise what was the point in posting?

Edit: Don (OP) - well done man. Kudos. Don't let this take the edge of your wonderful achievement.  smile

Jan 08 13 12:47 pm Link

Photographer

EdwardKristopher

Posts: 3377

Tempe, Arizona, US

Don-Jones wrote:
Actually that is not really a question I'm addressing to any of you... more of a statement because I'm aggravated. 

Hear recently I had a gallery approach me to use some of my work in an exhibit.  We went over the work they wanted to use and started finalizing things.  So I decide to contact the models and tell them the happy news that their work will be printed and featured.... well guess what, not all of them were too happy.

The strangest thing is one of the models that was involved in the work was not financially compensated.  She's a close friend and not a model.  Did it for fun, but talked with her about it and she's thrilled to death that her work is getting used.  Then on the other hand, one of the models that I paid, quite well I might add, is the one pissed off.

She signed the release, she knew the terms.... so that part doesn't matter. 

But what I do have to ask is what do models think I'm doing?  I pay a model up front in the hopes that I will be able to recover the costs (and if I'm lucky a profit) at some point down the road.  It doesn't always happen.  I'm just astounded by the fact she was upset I was actually going to make my money back or whatever it was she was actually pissed about.

I guess a lot of models just assume that all the photographer is doing is putting stuff in their portfolio.  I don't know.  Just a future note to whom it may concern: If it is costing me money to take a photo, I'm gonna damn well try to make money from it.

:-)

Jan 08 13 09:56 pm Link

Photographer

Solas

Posts: 9537

Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:
I know the answer but cant say here

well that's no fun...

Jan 09 13 12:54 am Link

Photographer

Michael Broughton

Posts: 2244

Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSCZgW27bVh0FNSChXLWPFLmnBbNRbi1_piZKZjsrFfyk1xE_AHvA

Jan 09 13 09:48 am Link

Photographer

JGC Photography

Posts: 134

Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

People will forgive you for anything, but success!
Fu@k em!

Your work is fantastic!
Congratulations and all the best of luck!

Jan 09 13 03:00 pm Link

Photographer

JGC Photography

Posts: 134

Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

Michael Broughton wrote:
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSCZgW27bVh0FNSChXLWPFLmnBbNRbi1_piZKZjsrFfyk1xE_AHvA

Bwahahahaa! smile

Jan 09 13 03:00 pm Link

Artist/Painter

sdgillis

Posts: 2444

Portland, Oregon, US

D S P wrote:
Congratulations on your exhibit!

Your situation is a perfect example of why model releases are needed.

Again, congrats!

helpful sure, but not needed for a gallery show.

Jan 09 13 03:03 pm Link

Artist/Painter

sdgillis

Posts: 2444

Portland, Oregon, US

Don-Jones wrote:
Well that was the point of contacting the models that are involved.  I'll be attending... and was going to try to get some photos of the exhibit to show them. 

In the past I've worked out special contracts with models... they take as smaller "up-front" payment in exchange for a percentage from prints sales.  But they usually forgo that since it can be a year or longer before I see a penny from some material.   

Perhaps I just took it too much as an insult.  I'm happy to see models I work with succeed and get published.  But I usually know how the conversation is going to go when the first thing the model asks "well how much money are you going to make"....

Totally.  I often tell this to models I work with.  That if I can sell something then I can hire them back again.  There are a couple that sold recently, so I will be contacting them to let them know.  It's also a good idea to not tell them too much before a show to stave crazy reaction, although, I have never had a bad one like that.  Just get them an invite and vip access or something. VIP just means free bar usually.

I take it you wont hire her again, oh well. smm

Jan 09 13 03:06 pm Link

Photographer

Viator Defessus Photos

Posts: 1117

College Station, Texas, US

There was one time that I chose to not use or display images of a particular model in a show because she objected. The shoot had been TF and I liked working with her generally so I just used other shots with other models to make her happy. I knew going into it I would be lucky to break even, and I ultimately lost over half the money I put into it but I was worth an attempt IMO, so how much I was "making off her" wasn't the issue. For some reason having images of herself on the internet and viewable to the whole world is less threatening then having pictures up in a small local show. Who knew?

Jan 09 13 03:08 pm Link

Photographer

Jeffrey M Fletcher

Posts: 4344

Asheville, North Carolina, US

Gallery exhibit, do you even need a release for that?


A show is usually a plus for the models and they like to hear about it, you just got one odd model with abnormal views. Congratulations on the show.

Jan 09 13 03:16 pm Link

Photographer

Darren Brade

Posts: 2830

London, England, United Kingdom

Congratulations.

Don't worry too much, models don't always know the costs of holding/participating in an exhibition. Maybe explaining this to the model will help them understand you're not making a huge amount of money of them.

Most models like the idea of posing for a photo next to the piece they're in, so invite them along to opening night.

Jan 10 13 06:32 am Link

Model

E e v a

Posts: 1724

Nashville, Tennessee, US

Dang she sounds ungrateful. I'd jump at the chance to work with you and have that happen. Oh well, some people are morons =/

Jan 10 13 06:45 am Link

Photographer

Farenell Photography

Posts: 18128

Albany, New York, US

Don-Jones wrote:
But what I do have to ask is what do models think I'm doing?  I pay a model up front in the hopes that I will be able to recover the costs (and if I'm lucky a profit) at some point down the road.  It doesn't always happen.  I'm just astounded by the fact she was upset I was actually going to make my money back or whatever it was she was actually pissed about.

Most models are great about such things but some can be REALLY weird.

Don't feel bad. The below image:

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs17/f/2007/ … emi234.jpg

Jan 10 13 07:07 am Link

Photographer

Loki Studio

Posts: 3018

Royal Oak, Michigan, US

While the model's reaction may simply seem irrational, I think it is essential to accept that working in the world of art means that some people will not like how, why, where, or when you express yourself.  Worse yet, their opinion may simply change over time, particularly over posing nude.

Luckily you operate your business properly and have used model release forms to protect yourself in these situations.

Jan 10 13 07:08 am Link

Photographer

Don-Jones

Posts: 302

Memphis, Tennessee, US

To display work in an exhibit, you normally don't need a release.  Especially if the copyright holder is also the host of the showing/gallery. 

The funny thing is I even gave her a tip.  We were doing hourly.  I already had a money order for a specified amount of time, but we cut the shoot short by one hour.  Her service was worth it, so I paid the extra hour.  It just upset me because she was an amazing model and someone I recommended to other people... and would definitely hire her again (at least before this).

But anyhow, thanks for the compliments and support lol

Jan 10 13 05:18 pm Link

Model

Isis22

Posts: 2567

Muncie, Indiana, US

Don-Jones wrote:
To display work in an exhibit, you normally don't need a release.  Especially if the copyright holder is also the host of the showing/gallery.

Seriously? Did you not get a release in this instance?

Jan 10 13 05:35 pm Link

Photographer

Don-Jones

Posts: 302

Memphis, Tennessee, US

Isis22 wrote:

Seriously? Did you not get a release in this instance?

Read the OP.  I have a release.

Jan 10 13 09:05 pm Link

Model

Jordan L Duncan

Posts: 207

Jacksonville, Florida, US

Don-Jones wrote:
Then on the other hand, one of the models that I paid, quite well I might add, is the one pissed off.

WHAAA??

I cannot possibly imagine what she could be upset about. If she wanted profit sharing she needed to negotiate that with you before signing a release. But in a way SHE GOT PAID before you did! AND she can say she's a gallery model and put it in her resume. And take her friends to the gallery and point at her big ol' picture and say, "LOOKIT ITS ME I'M IN A GALLERY WUT WUT". And then her boyfriend will buy her fancy champagne to celebrate.

Or she can be an ungrateful butthole.

If someone paid me to model for them, and then ever how many months came to me and said, "Oh btw those pics are gonna be in a gallery yay." I would probably shit myself and cry and squeal all at the same time. Then I'd ask when the exhibition is so I can bring all my friends and family. Then I'd clean myself up and immediately go out and buy a new dress. Then I would brag to everyone I met including my daughter's daycare teachers, grocery store clerks, and gas station attendants.

In fact, I'd still be exactly the same amount of excited if the shoot was for free and I would never be compensated in any monetary way whatsoever.

Jan 10 13 09:44 pm Link

Model

Jordan L Duncan

Posts: 207

Jacksonville, Florida, US

Michael Pandolfo wrote:

Greed.

How dare a photographer try to make money. SHE gets paid. Not the other way around. I guarantee she feels she should have charged more for that shoot and also feels entitled to further compensation now that the photographer can make some money.

There is no logic. But a lack of logic has never been an obstacle for many.

Well of course she thinks that. Cameras and lighting equipment and computers and food and rent are all free right? Why does the photographer need to make money?

Jan 10 13 09:49 pm Link

Photographer

Garry k

Posts: 27201

Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

who knows, could be she doesnt like the photo

>?

Jan 10 13 09:55 pm Link