Eros Studios wrote:
Just wondering what other's take is on this...

Unlike in the United Christian States of America, in Europe the human body isn't look at as something unclean or dirty that one should be ashamed of showing or seeing.

Martin Coombes wrote:
You should come to Germany, its hard to get them to put their clothes back on

As I start to plan out the drive to Dresden, I realize that I'm in the Czech Republic and suffer the same fate as you....lol.  Long live Central European openness!

CZ Digital wrote:

As I start to plan out the drive to Dresden, I realize that I'm in the Czech Republic and suffer the same fate as you....lol.  Long live Central European openness!

I have driven that road myself, it connects two great photographic cities.

RennsportPhotography wrote:
And I thought SB was closed.

Different cultures and I thought diversity was good. Europe was a large land of many cultures which IMO brought about more acceptance. America is a large land with a common culture and changes more slowly.

Yes, I agree with this. I am from the UK but live in the US. Some of the discussions that are happening here now (politically) happened 500 years ago in England. Not a bad thing, just an observation.

Keep in mind that some of the acceptance came about after long, bloody battles where there was little other option.

CZ Digital wrote:

As I start to plan out the drive to Dresden, I realize that I'm in the Czech Republic and suffer the same fate as you....lol.  Long live Central European openness!

I have photographed a great Czech model here in the US.

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
In the early 1600's the European's kicked out a bunch of the wacko religious nuts and forced them to move to the 'new world'. Those annoying folks felt that it was their duty to tell everybody how to live their lives and it didn't go over very well with others.

They survived the trip and brought their up-tight morality with them. It became the foundation for the current anti-nudity and anti-sexuality attitudes that we are still suffering with today.

We refer to them as the 'Pilgrims or Puritans' and once a year eat a turkey to remember that they didn't starve to death, as many people had hoped they would.

Things now would certainly be different if they had . . . .

KM

Yup... this is inline with my own take...

Gianantonio wrote:
The super conservative people in Europe (the Puritans) were kicked out of Europe back in the 1600s and settled in what's now the USA...

they left because they thought the Church of England was too wild.  These folks were REALLY anal.  that's our wonderful tradition here in the USA

Gianantonio wrote:
The super conservative people in Europe (the Puritans) were kicked out of Europe back in the 1600s and settled in what's now the USA...

I think you are very correct in this.

I think the UK is probably most conservative when it comes to 'sexy' nude modelling but probably the most liberal when it comes to nude art modelling. Every art student is brought up on nude models.

We have topless page three girls every day in normal newspapers. We don't have topless weather girls on tv though

MedievalIce wrote:
The whole "They kicked the ultra-religious people out of Europe" argument really doesn't really hold water.  True, religious groups were expelled from certain places in Europe about 400 years ago, but often by other religious groups.  Remember that the same period saw religious wars in England and Central Europe, as well as very active participation in the Inquisition.  And don't forget all of Eastern Europe.  The reality is that most Euroopean countries were more religious than the United States 100-200 years ago.  Also are you seriously going to argue that the American attitude toward nudity was stricter than Hitler's Germany, Mussolini's Italy, Franco's Spain, or Stalin's USSR?

While greater religiosity may provide a good scapegoat, the reality is that it's probably NOT the contributing factor toward differing attitudes toward nudity.  If we're going to attribute differing attitudes toward nudity to a historical period, we're probably better off looking at the World Wars and the political and social attitudes that surround it.  The overall horror of the wars as well as the fascist and communist regimes in Europe greatly shook the collective European psyche.  The backlash was usually to abandon the old social mores and look toward different forms or artistic expression.  And in many cases (e.g. Spain) changing attitudes toward nudity were a backlash against the high censorship of oppressive regimes.

I also wonder if a huge part of our perception is also driven by a perception bias.  Nudity is more common in the media of certain European countries, so we tend to think that that trend is reflected in the models.  So I ran some quick stats from MM.  14.6% of MM models in the US say they shoot nudes.  This is considerably lower than Germany (35%), but higher than, Greece, Ireland, or Iceland.  And fairly comparable to the UK (17.6%).  I also noticed that in certain countries (Spain and Italy) there was a high number of foreign models in the pool.  So I think part of what's going on is a cultural attitude that has nothing to do with nudity. 

Europeans, in general, tend to be more structured in their careers, and I think we're getting fewer "models" who sign up for MM on a whim and think that they'll make it big and then disappear.  The Europeans who sign up are much more likely to have had some training and be much more serious about modeling as a career - and have thus already experimented with nudity and are more involved with the modeling world as a whole and realize the reality of nudity in the arts and in fashion.  This is especially true when we consider that this is an English-language site and it's much more accessible to passers-by in the English speaking world, and those models who aren't native English speakers need a stronger motivation to sign up.

Sorry I couldn't get past the first sentence:

WARNING 18 plus:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-aOP_AZZl1Kw/T … /aaaaa.jpg

They'd be Nazi women.

Maybe because you censor art and history in the USA you don't see this stuff

I also don't think we are more structured in our careers though yes possibly less likely to come to MM without already being a model. My career 7 years ago was in dissemination of science for a learned society for which I was well paid. I left that because I got offered stupid money to do logistics and security druing the Iraq reconstruction. Then I started a PhD and did some nude art modelling to pay the fees. Then I got offered a job modelling for Agent provocateur. Then I got funding for a different PhD. After that I have no idea what I will be doing. This would be fairly typical - the cradle to grave structure of employment in the UK has long gone. Everyone is an opportunist.

Axioma wrote:
Do you think it is more easy to tell your parents/close environment when you're in Europe?
Do you think you get no judgement from outsiders for it in Europe?
Do you think nude models in Europe do not have to go with an alias and cover up their online presence when they have other professional occupations?

Wrong!

This is also true.

But while my parents and prudes and parochial people may for example think modelling nude at the Royal Academy may be a bit bad in most places in high society they would think it very positive.

Eliza C wrote:

This is also true.

But while my parents and prudes and parochial people may for example think modelling nude at the Royal Academy may be a bit bad in most places in high society they would think it very positive.

I wanted to underline this as people in this thread are starting to lose nuance a bit in my opinion

Axioma wrote:
Do you think it is easy to tell your parents/close environment when you're in Europe?
Do you think you get no judgement from outsiders for it in Europe?
Do you think nude models in Europe do not have to go with an alias and cover up their online presence when they have other professional occupations?

Wrong!

American's seem to think so.  You bunch of free lovin' naked Europeans!!

Eliza C wrote:
Sorry I couldn't get past the first sentence:

WARNING 18 plus:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-aOP_AZZl1Kw/T … /aaaaa.jpg

They'd be Nazi women.

Maybe because you censor art and history in the USA you don't see this stuff

I also don't think we are more structured in our careers though yes possibly less likely to come to MM without already being a llama. My career 7 years ago was in dissemination of science for a learned society for which I was well paid. I left that because I got offered stupid money to do logistics and security druing the Iraq reconstruction. Then I started a PhD and did some nude art llamaling to pay the fees. Then I got offered a job llamaling for Agent provocateur. Then I got funding for a different PhD. After that I have no idea what I will be doing. This would be fairly typical - the cradle to grave structure of employment in the UK has long gone. Everyone is an opportunist.

I actually quite agree with you that careers aren't nearly as structured aren't nearly as structured in the UK and that the cradle to grave employment system is dissolving.  And in that regard, as well as in terms of education, the UK takes some sort of middle ground between the United States and Continental Europe (and even that is a generalization because education and employment in Germany is vastly different than Greece or the Ukraine).  I also think that attitudes toward nudity also fall into the middle ground.  And while I will admit that I'm not the best expert in such things in the UK, I have lived in four European countries and even have a graduate degree from an European university, so I have been deeply embroiled in the employment market there.

And as for your photo I'd also like to know some of the history of the image (and not sarcastically).  When was it taken?  For what purpose?  What was the distribution?  And (somewhat sarcastically) censorship may be part of the reason that I hadn't seen it, I mean all that time in Germany and... 

However, I think that my main point stands, that while religion may partially influence the modern attitudes toward nude llamaing, it can't be chalked up to 400 year old emigrations. 

And as you and Axioma have so elegantly (and rightly!) pointed out, at the ground level, many of the attitudes are the same, and much of it is simply an issue of perception.

MedievalIce wrote:

I actually quite agree with you that careers aren't nearly as structured aren't nearly as structured in the UK and that the cradle to grave employment system is dissolving.  And in that regard, as well as in terms of education, the UK takes some sort of middle ground between the United States and Continental Europe (and even that is a generalization because education and employment in Germany is vastly different than Greece or the Ukraine).  I also think that attitudes toward nudity also fall into the middle ground.  And while I will admit that I'm not the best expert in such things in the UK, I have lived in four European countries and even have a graduate degree from an European university, so I have been deeply embroiled in the employment market there.

And as for your photo I'd also like to know some of the history of the image (and not sarcastically).  When was it taken?  For what purpose?  What was the distribution?  And (somewhat sarcastically) censorship may be part of the reason that I hadn't seen it, I mean all that time in Germany and... 

However, I think that my main point stands, that while religion may partially influence the modern attitudes toward nude modeling, it can't be chalked up to 400 year old emigrations. 

And as you and Axioma have so elegantly (and rightly!) pointed out, at the ground level, many of the attitudes are the same, and much of it is simply an issue of perception.

Yes!

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
In the early 1600's the European's kicked out a bunch of the wacko religious nuts and forced them to move to the 'new world'. Those annoying folks felt that it was their duty to tell everybody how to live their lives and it didn't go over very well with others.

They survived the trip and brought their up-tight morality with them. It became the foundation for the current anti-nudity and anti-sexuality attitudes that we are still suffering with today.

We refer to them as the 'Pilgrims or Puritans' and once a year eat a turkey to remember that they didn't starve to death, as many people had hoped they would.

Things now would certainly be different if they had . . . .


Oh yes!

MedievalIce wrote:
I actually quite agree with you that careers aren't nearly as structured aren't nearly as structured in the UK and that the cradle to grave employment system is dissolving.  And in that regard, as well as in terms of education, the UK takes some sort of middle ground between the United States and Continental Europe (and even that is a generalization because education and employment in Germany is vastly different than Greece or the Ukraine).  I also think that attitudes toward nudity also fall into the middle ground.  And while I will admit that I'm not the best expert in such things in the UK, I have lived in four European countries and even have a graduate degree from an European university, so I have been deeply embroiled in the employment market there.

And as for your photo I'd also like to know some of the history of the image (and not sarcastically).  When was it taken?  For what purpose?  What was the distribution?  And (somewhat sarcastically) censorship may be part of the reason that I hadn't seen it, I mean all that time in Germany and... 

However, I think that my main point stands, that while religion may partially influence the modern attitudes toward nude modeling, it can't be chalked up to 400 year old emigrations. 

And as you and Axioma have so elegantly (and rightly!) pointed out, at the ground level, many of the attitudes are the same, and much of it is simply an issue of perception.

The natural beauty of Aryan models was celebrated in Nazi Germany. They did things like nude pilates etc. It wasn't sexualised and more to do with perfect bodies but photographing those bodies was very much encouraged. Put stockings and lipstick on them and that was decadent and perverse. It was a society very much based on classical models of Sparta and ancient Greece hence all the theatrical impact of flags and columns and eagles...and perfect bodies. So they passed things like the 1942 decree on nude bathing (permitted anywhere as long as it wans't flaunted in front of people).

http://www.spiegel.de/international/zei … 68641.html

johnreefphotography wrote:
Read Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris.  It will explain a lot of hangups and perversions we seem to have in the US.

Sam Harris is not a historian. And he is very selective and populist in his writings. So I would take it with a pinch of salt he is coming from it from a completely biased perspective of trying to blame all the world's ills on religion and as many senior anthroplogists and historians will point out his ramblings and rantings are often very short on actual data.

Having said that, I am sure there is an element of it.

Miroslava Svoboda wrote:
I don't think it has that much to do with religion as it has much to do with how people think.

Example: Majority of European joke are base on random subject, majority of American jokes are about sex. Americans tend to actually sexualised everything.

Good point but are you Czech? That is like the pot calling the kettle!

Eliza C wrote:
The natural beauty of Aryan models was celebrated in Nazi Germany. They did things like nude pilates etc. It wasn't sexualised and more to do with perfect bodies but photographing those bodies was very much encouraged. Put stockings and lipstick on them and that was decadent and perverse. It was a society very much based on classical models of Sparta and ancient Greece hence all the theatrical impact of flags and columns and eagles...and perfect bodies. So they passed things like the 1942 decree on nude bathing (permitted anywhere as long as it wans't flaunted in front of people).

http://www.spiegel.de/international/zei … 68641.html

Interesting article, especially when you consider the propagandizing nature of the nudity in the photographs.

AJScalzitti wrote:
Let's not forget that we still have completely unelected and unaccountable "officials" in charge of censorship here in the US.  It's not as bad as it was say in the 1950s but it's still going on

Including here on MM.
A bit crazy we can't post an image of a historical artefact or artwork.

Yet you also have so called 'liberals' (who would likely be anti religion too as it happens) who say that MM is a porn site.

So let's not blame it all on the religious right. You have prudishness from the liberal atheist too - the women's groups etc.

We have them too but by an large they either get a slapping down from the rest of us women or have come to a different perspective .

Eliza C wrote:
Good point but are you Czech? That is like the pot calling the kettle!

Not Czech but not too far from it.

Lucian Schmit wrote:
I just want to add that in the US this can be regional. I feel lucky to live near a city that attracts people form all over that generally don't find nudity shocking.

We even have groups of people who call themselves "sex positive". Stating that they love sex and meet to talk about it and explore. It's funny that such a premise even exists. We love nudity and sex for the most part. Why are we so embarrassed ?

That's true as well - and often in unexpected areas.  When I ran my statistics, I took a look at NYC, expecting to find more models open to shooting nudes, and instead found that it was well below the national MM average.  I can think of several good reasons for this, but doubt that religious or social conservatism would appear high on that list.