Green Grape Photography wrote:
Some may ask for advice and to be criticized on their work. But I think it would help to view the critics profile & port before actually taking that advice.

I just did that.

Green Grape Photography wrote:
Some may ask for advice and to be criticized on their work. But I think it would help to view the critics profile & port before actually taking that advice.

Seems like a good idea to me. Although I'd need to be on the fence. If I flat-out didn't agree with their advice, I'd ignore it and not look. If I kind of agreed but wasn't sure, I'd check their port.

Also, if they brought brand new information, something I didn't know, I'd check then also.

Green Grape Photography wrote:
Some may ask for advice and to be criticized on their work. But I think it would help to view the critics profile & port before actually taking that advice.

True... BUT... the way the game's played around there... it's not like you can actually pick and choose who they are... ...

SPRINGHEEL  wrote:
You don't need to know how to cook to know what shitty food tastes like

^^^ this

Rick Edwards wrote:

^^^ this

Yup, this.

SPRINGHEEL  wrote:
You don't need to know how to cook to know what shitty food tastes like

haha +1

SPRINGHEEL  wrote:
You don't need to know how to cook to know what shitty food tastes like

sure, but you wouldn't go around telling a 5 star chef how to do his job, right?

SPRINGHEEL  wrote:
You don't need to know how to cook to know what shitty food tastes like

While I do agree with this, at the same time, maybe you don't know what good food tastes like either. What is it that you're cooking that you would say tastes GREAT.


Last time I got a critique on a headshot I took, I was told I needed to work on my skin retouching....that guys entire portfolio was full of models with worse than plastic skin. Since he ventured to put it all in his own portfolio over and over again, I have to believe that's what he considers "good"....and if that's good then I don't want to be good.

SPRINGHEEL  wrote:
You don't need to know how to cook to know what shitty food tastes like

People who are really good cooks are likely to have a refined level of taste though.

SPRINGHEEL  wrote:
You don't need to know how to cook to know what shitty food tastes like

but if what you think is great food is shitty food because its what you are used to eating and enjoy.......yea kinda matters haha

Laura UnBound wrote:

While I do agree with this, at the same time, maybe you don't know what good food tastes like either. What is it that you're cooking that you would say tastes GREAT.

I think there are a couple of issues there. One is taste level, another is just having the context/awareness to be able to evaluate work.

I was a Theatre major in college and I took an advanced acting class that was very good. During the course of the class I think every one of us had that "oh shit" moment where we realized all the acting we'd done to that point was total crap. And once we understood that, we were able to get better.

I think it's the same with photography. Some people just don't know enough to understand what's good and bad. And then there's the taste thing. If someone's on a totally different page there, their feedback may not be helpful to you.

I absolutely look at people's work when I consider their opinions here. I sometimes won't even give someone a critique if I think it's going to be wasted air.

Green Grape Photography wrote:
Some may ask for advice and to be criticized on their work. But I think it would help to view the critics profile & port before actually taking that advice.

I think this is a load of bunk. Some people are better at having the passion & drive to execute the "good" work, some people are better at recognizing what's good & what's bad (or what's working in a piece & what isn't). Otherwise the world wouldn't not have ANY critics whatsoever.

Take what people say to heart. Most will be worthless & not be worth anything, other times they'll have a viewpoint worth considering that you yourself never would have considered in a million years. & if that's the case, the quality of that person's port isn't really going to matter, now will it?

SPRINGHEEL  wrote:
You don't need to know how to cook to know what shitty food tastes like

True but if you don't know how to cook, how will you know how to improve the food?

Chronos Productions wrote:

True but if you don't know how to cook, how will you know how to improve the food?

This is a really bad analogy.  I'm quoting you, but I'm not blaming you.  My father is a good example of someone who cannot, for the life of him, follow a recipe ... but I can't tell you how many times I've had leftovers at my parents' place that had been reworked to taste like something I would have gotten at a five star restaurant.  My mother is the opposite:  if you give her a shopping list, you're going to get a great dinner.  But if you tell her to go look in the fridge and figure out what dinner is going to be ... well, not so much.

Two different skill sets, really.

Critting work is the same.  Talking about work - either your own or others' - is a different skill from making your own.  I've had great professors and terrible ones, and many of the terrible ones made excellent work.  I think the best policy is to listen to everything but the be prepared to ignore it all.

Rich Burroughs wrote:

I think there are a couple of issues there. One is taste level, another is just having the context/awareness to be able to evaluate work.

I was a Theatre major in college and I took an advanced acting class that was very good. During the course of the class I think every one of us had that "oh shit" moment where we realized all the acting we'd done to that point was total crap. And once we understood that, we were able to get better.

I think it's the same with photography. Some people just don't know enough to understand what's good and bad. And then there's the taste thing. If someone's on a totally different page there, their feedback may not be helpful to you.

I absolutely look at people's work when I consider their opinions here. I sometimes won't even give someone a critique if I think it's going to be wasted air.

I dont disagree. Which is why I generally don't ask for critiques from the masses, unless my goal is to appeal to the masses, which is 99% of the time isn't.

I ask for feedback from people whos work/quality/style I aspire to.
If I want to shoot more like bob, and bobs work is entirely different than joes work, regardless of whether or not joes work is good, joes opinion doesn't help me unless he can tell me how to be more like bob. If he doesn't even like bobs work and is going to steer me in a different direction than I want his opinion is especially useless to me.

Green Grape Photography wrote:
Some may ask for advice and to be criticized on their work. But I think it would help to view the critics profile & port before actually taking that advice.

"Pay no attention to what the critics say; no statue has ever been put up to a critic."
-Jean Sibelius

First and foremost, your work should satisfy you.

Following the advice of every Tom, Dick and Harriet will have your work looking like every Tom, Dick and Harriet's.

Seek advice from those who have already accomplished the end results you're looking for.

Take the best. Leave the rest.

PMs and tutorials can be wonderful things.

Z.

zaxpix wrote:
"Pay no attention to what the critics say; no statue has ever been put up to a critic."
-Jean Sibelius

You mean other than the "critic(s)" commissioning the work in the first place.

zaxpix wrote:
"Pay no attention to what the critics say; no statue has ever been put up to a critic."
-Jean Sibelius

Farenell Photography wrote:
You mean other than the "critic(s)" commissioning the work in the first place.

Not me. Jean Sibelius.

That wouldn't be a critic, in the sense of the word. (Nor in the context of this thread.) That would be a client. If you want to be paid that commission, it would be wise of you to listen to their opinions.

The customer is always right. Critics? Not so much.

Z.

zaxpix wrote:
The customer is always right. Critics? Not so much.

That may be so but those critics can be extremely influential in their own right & can sway the opinion of the very customers you're seeking.

Cases in point, Siskel & Ebert as well as "Consumer Reports" magazine immediately comes to mind.

zaxpix wrote:
The customer is always right. Critics? Not so much.

Farenell Photography wrote:
That may be so but those critics can be extremely influential in their own right & can sway the opinion of the very customers you're seeking.

Cases in point, Siskel & Ebert. Same goes for "Consumer Reports".

They can be wrong as well

No doubt, critics can hold a certain amount of sway over those who rely on their opinions of this and that.

Everyone does not.

I would wager that there are many more of us who go to the movies and consume products based on our own opinions and are just fine with that.

Z.

Green Grape Photography wrote:
Some may ask for advice and to be criticized on their work. But I think it would help to view the critics profile & port before actually taking that advice.

I tend to agree in some ways but not in others.

There are some things that a person can see without having a great port. Images not in focus, poor editing (as in the really bad stuff), etc. There are also some people who just happen to be really good at critiquing and noticing things, but maybe not so talented themselves.

I think there are also times when you get a critique from someone who probably has no idea what they are talking about or who does not understand your genre, etc. And I think sometimes people throw artistic goals or similar that the photographer or whoever mentioned and just judge on personal taste, often in a negative respect. Those are the people who I personal just ignore. If someone cannot take the time to read a post explaining the image (if there is one), then they really are not giving a very good, though out critique in my opinion.

I also tend to put less concern in critiques that are not constructive. It is a lot easier to tell someone you just do not like something, than it is is to tell them why it did not work and a suggestion on how to fix it.

For me as a model, I will often look at the profile of a model if she is giving me more detailed advice. If she is a fashion model living in New York, what works for her may be a lot different than what works for me. It does not mean she is giving me "bad" advice. It just means it is not really relevant for me.

SPRINGHEEL  wrote:
You don't need to know how to cook to know what shitty food tastes like

If the person judging my food calls themselves a chef, they better know something about food and cooking. Their expertise is being used to judge my expertise.

OTOH, you can get great feedback from people that aren't experts or pros, but you know going in that's the situation. They aren't pretending to be experts.

Green Grape Photography wrote:
Some may ask for advice and to be criticized on their work. But I think it would help to view the critics profile & port before actually taking that advice.

They did a big study of the NFL and collegiate football years ago and found that, quite conclusively, that the worst coaches were great players and that the best coaches were typically people who never once played the game.

Green Grape Photography wrote:
Some may ask for advice and to be criticized on their work. But I think it would help to view the critics profile & port before actually taking that advice.

it can be another case of "do as I say, not as I do"
I view it as another pair of eyes that might see something that was missed

Green Grape Photography wrote:
Some may ask for advice and to be criticized on their work. But I think it would help to view the critics profile & port before actually taking that advice.

You've worded this perfectly.

This is what people read when they hear someone ask for a "critique". They hear it as "criticize me" or say critical/negative things.

You can have great critiques without saying anything negative. In fact these are probably better because the ideas that get stimulated tend to be about the future - the next shoot, rather than about what was done.

Mikey McMichaels wrote:

You've worded this perfectly.

This is what people read when they hear someone ask for a "critique". They hear it as "criticize me" or say critical/negative things.

You can have great critiques without saying anything negative. In fact these are probably better because the ideas that get stimulated tend to be about the future - the next shoot, rather than about what was done.

Exactly. I hardly ever see any positivity.

Zack Zoll wrote:

This is a really bad analogy.  I'm quoting you, but I'm not blaming you.  My father is a good example of someone who cannot, for the life of him, follow a recipe ... but I can't tell you how many times I've had leftovers at my parents' place that had been reworked to taste like something I would have gotten at a five star restaurant.  My mother is the opposite:  if you give her a shopping list, you're going to get a great dinner.  But if you tell her to go look in the fridge and figure out what dinner is going to be ... well, not so much.

Two different skill sets, really.

Critting work is the same.  Talking about work - either your own or others' - is a different skill from making your own.  I've had great professors and terrible ones, and many of the terrible ones made excellent work.  I think the best policy is to listen to everything but the be prepared to ignore it all.

+1 Very well put. Developing the vocabulary and perception to say something intelligent, insightful or meaningful about artwork is a craft and skill of its own.

SPRINGHEEL  wrote:
You don't need to know how to cook to know what shitty food tastes like

Rich Burroughs wrote:
People who are really good cooks are likely to have a refined level of taste though.

Undeniably, but sometimes also pointed and narrowly opinionated , lacking the breadth and flexibility needed in useful critiques.

SPRINGHEEL  wrote:
You don't need to know how to cook to know what shitty food tastes like

True, but if you're trying to be a cook and you're bad at it, telling others what's wrong with their food may not carry that much weight...