Alabaster Crowley wrote:

This is really disappointing. You think it's appropriate to ask for sex in a professional setting? What about at an office job?

Depends on if the answer is yes or no. 

People hook up in the work place all the time, not saying it's appropriate but it does happen.

If she had agreed we wouldn't be discussing it.

Marin Photography NYC wrote:

Depends on if the answer is yes or no.

No.

Alabaster Crowley wrote:
This is really disappointing. You think it's appropriate to ask for sex in a professional setting? What about at an office job?

No, I don't think it's appropriate.

I also don't think all situations can be clearly defined as professional or non-professional. Relationships between people manifest themselves in many ways.

I don't know the details of this particular situation, and I don't know the other persons point of view on what happened. I will not jump to conclusions about that on a one sided story.

I also don't think it's appropriate to hyperventilate about someone being a boorish klutz and stir up drama when it can be handled by common sense or a firm rejection.

It depends on the situation. All kinds of people can be all kinds of pests for many reasons. Drama-mongers are pests too. I don't like people who feel a need to complain because they want to be offended or because they want to blab to everyone that they are a victim of "inappropriate behavior" or (fill in the blank). I don't like blanket statements nagging about photographers and models that is going on in this thread.

Along with legitimate grievances, there there is also lots of exaggerated BS, as evidenced in this thread.

Click Hamilton wrote:

No, I don't think it's appropriate.

I also don't think all situations can be clearly defined as professional or non-professional. Relationships between people manifest themselves in many ways.

I don't know the details of this particular situation, and I don't know the other persons point of view on what happened. I will not jump to conclusions about that on a one sided story.

I also don't think it's appropriate to hyperventilate about someone being a boorish klutz and stir up drama when it can be handled by common sense or a simple rejection.

It depends on the situation. All kinds of people can be all kinds of pests for many reasons. Drama-mongers are pests too. I don't like people who feel a need to complain because they want to be offended or because they want to blab to everyone that they are a victim of "inappropriate behavior." I don't like blanket statements complaining about photographers and models that is going on in this thread.

Along with legitimate grievances, there there is also lots of exaggerated BS, as evidenced in this thread.

Rape culture is perpetuated by not making conclusions based on the women's story alone.

Alabaster Crowley wrote:

No.

I'm guessing like always you don't read everything people write, only parts.

Alabaster Crowley wrote:
Rape culture is perpetuated by not making conclusions based on the women's story alone.

What if there is no link to rape and sexual violence?

Just the phrase "rape culture" has insidious and damning connotations. What if the people being talked to or at with this emotionally loaded expression are innocent? Should they be made to feel guilty anyway?

My culture is not about rape or violence.

I know. Some people think all sex is rape. Some people think all men are assholes. That's too bad. People get that way sometimes.

Alabaster Crowley wrote:
This is really disappointing. You think it's appropriate to ask for sex in a professional setting? What about at an office job?

depends on a profession and the setting ...


for example -->  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustang_Ranch

where both the profession and the setting are dependent on asking ...in a professional setting

Click Hamilton wrote:

What if there is no link to rape and sexual violence?

Just the phrase "rape culture" has insidious and damning connotations. What if the people being talked to or at with this emotionally loaded expression are innocent? Should they be made to feel guilty anyway?

I know. Some people think all sex is rape. Some people think all men are assholes. That's too bad. People get that way sometimes.

No amount of me speaking logically about statistics and facts will make you understand, I'm afraid. Have fun. Bye.

r T p wrote:


depends on a profession and the setting ...


for example -->  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustang_Ranch

where both the profession and the setting are dependent on asking ...in a professional setting

Sigh. Come on.

Alabaster Crowley wrote:
Rape culture is perpetuated by not making conclusions based on the women's story alone.

Wait a minute ...

I have to parse that:

"Rape culture IS perpetuated"
"by NOT making conclusions"
"based on the woman's story alone"

In the interests of justice I think all sides of an argument should be considered.

Lots of people are subjective, emotional or neurotic. Some people are psychotic. Some people are bitter, habitually negative or carry a grudge from previous events in their lives. Some people have a propensity or compulsion to always whine and complain. Humans are imperfect. We need to assess the entirety of the situation.

Women can also be exceptionally aggressive in the way they manipulate men, as well as other women. You know that. I think manipulation of people transcends gender. Calling something a "rape culture" and overemphasizing women as victims doesn't do justice to all the other deceit, manipulation and exploitation that goes on between people. There are good people and bad people everywhere we want to look.

---

Lots of people think glamor modeling is objectification of women. The same for alternative and fetish modeling. Is that what you mean by perpetuating a rape culture?

Does this NOT perpetuate a culture of rape and violence?
https://www.modelmayhem.com/portfolio/pic/32162261

It is possible that I don't understand your meaning.

Alabaster Crowley wrote:
No amount of me speaking logically about statistics and facts will make you understand, I'm afraid. Have fun. Bye.

I'm sorry, but I don't follow your posts enough to know what your position or agenda is on these things. I very rarely come to this forum.

I don't know how much logical speaking you have been doing on this subject.

You have a tone to your posts like you want to attack me for something. Have you been damaged in some way?

Fred Greissing wrote:

Be careful who asks you to go hiking

That wasn't a rattlesnake...

Alabaster Crowley wrote:

Rape culture is perpetuated by not making conclusions based on the women's story alone.

Can you elaborate on this statement.  Maybe I'm taking it out of context, but I read it to say that if we don't take a woman by her word and her word alone, we're perpetuating a rape culture.

If I'm completely wrong by what you're saying, please say so.

Tim Griffiths wrote:

Really? You mean they do want to act out male fantasies and have the photographers express an interest in them? Or they don;t want to act out male fantasies?
It's just a matter of opinion, of course, but from where I sit all of glamour and porn, and the cross-over into 'art' nude (before it becomes antiseptic or altogether different), is dedicated to pandering to what I have been reliably informed is the male gaze (whatever that actually is). At the more no nonsense end it is geared solely towards emptying a man's tanks as effectively as possible.

So when I get criticised for having a gross, neanderthal mentality I ask simply who the audience is?
Who are you doing all this for, and why, just out of curiosity, don't you wear any clothes when you are doing it?

I don't mean to go on, but this is something that has caused me a lot of head scratching over time.
I have no problem with people doing whatever floats their boat, within reason. I am sometimes of the opinion that men the world over just ought to hand over the reigns of power to women, so oftentimes sickening is our gender's treatment of them, and so incapable we seem to be at avoiding brutal conflict whenever we fall out.
But I am deeply confused by what I see as a 'wanting it every way possible' attitude at work here. You want men to photograph you, you want them to pay you. You work to higher levels because you know that is what will part men from their money. You want to be admired. You want to be desired. And you want to exert such control over the responses of your male audience that hitting on you is to be regarded as practically a criminal act.

Maybe it is wholly unacceptable to hit on a model, but how many of you can honestly say you aren't using  men's sexual attraction to women to get paid work?
It wouldn't be that surprising. Most of the women I've known have used that to get all sorts of things done for them, and bought for them. For some it is so habitual they scarcely know they are doing it.

I was going to delete this, because my train of thought is leading me to think that asking for sex really is unacceptable if only because it makes an assumption that the kind of work being done for the camera automatically means someone is promiscuous enough to accept a request for sex from a total stranger. That's an insult. I think I see that. But I still wonder about a couple of the other questions I raised, so I may as well leave it.

You've raised some good questions. It's the blanket statements about women and men that I take exception to.

Jules NYC wrote:
I get turned on by landscapes.

Fred Greissing wrote:
Be careful who asks you to go hiking

That wasn't a rattlesnake...

Giuseppe Luzio wrote:
did he get it?

With Nutella?



^^ PS, Damn.

Jules NYC wrote:

With Nutella?

damn people stealing my ideas LOL

i knew i shoulda kept it a secret LOL

Alabaster Crowley wrote:
If these threads are good for anything, it's knowing who not to work with. Thanks for showing yor true colors, everyone.

Yep!! That swings both ways!! Thank you as well!

NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote:


Circus performers do hook up from time to time but if you are propositioning one mid-catch you are taking advantage of a vulnerable moment to try to give yourself unfair leverage.

Eloquently said.

Flex Photography wrote:
How did he get your email in the first place?

Why would that even matter??

Tim Griffiths wrote:
...
But I am deeply confused by what I see as a 'wanting it every way possible' attitude at work here. You want men to photograph you, you want them to pay you. You work to higher levels because you know that is what will part men from their money. You want to be admired. You want to be desired. And you want to exert such control over the responses of your male audience that hitting on you is to be regarded as practically a criminal act.

When did she ever say that? When did any model on this forum EVER say that? Sorry but if that's what you think motivates professional models you have a very skewed perception of us. I wouldn't be surprised if your perception of women in general was equally skewed based on this.

Tim Griffiths wrote:
3. For whatever reasons they may have for it, models seem to want to act out a variety of male fantasies for the camera and not have photographers express a sexual interest in them.

Photographers, men, women, and any other being is free to have as much sexual attraction to me as they want.

It's a very different story when that "sexual attraction" turns into a power trip that leads to unwanted sexual attention, harassment, and/or assault.

In other words, if there's a party in your pants, good for you. Just keep it in there.

BlueMoonPics wrote:
whatever happened to being wooed first?

It's kind of like New Math - wooed becomes wood

Jules NYC wrote:

Eloquently said.

Alabaster Crowley wrote:
No amount of me speaking logically about statistics and facts will make you understand, I'm afraid. Have fun. Bye.

Your failure to support your arguments with facts and statistics perpetuates rape culture.

Danielle Reid wrote:
NVM, I might get brigged

You should still look at the description of the Youtube video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OBPaenkxdg

Vindictive Images wrote:

You should still look at the description of the Youtube video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OBPaenkxdg

The description talks about people complaining about the crappy 480p

Danielle Reid wrote:
The description talks about people complaining about the crappy 480p

I meant this part: "I only uploaded this clip for a relevant conversation on a forum."
Some discussions are timeless.

Vindictive Images wrote:

I meant this part: "I only uploaded this clip for a relevant conversation on a forum."
Some discussions are timeless.

Ah, it's an age old argument that will never be solved. No one will ever agree

Honestly, I feel if it looks like a duck, quack likes a duck and swims like a duck then one can only assume...

But most people will argue "just because it looks like a duck doesn't mean it's a duck!" Okay...but those other ducks over there will have to disagree.

Danielle Reid wrote:
NVM, I might get brigged

I'll bail you out.

Danielle Reid wrote:
Honestly, I feel if it looks like a duck, quack likes a duck and swims like a duck then one can only assume...

Oooh. You should definitely watch the video then.

"Just because I'm dressed this way does not make me a police officer!"

Vindictive Images wrote:

Oooh. You should definitely watch the video then.

"Just because I'm dressed this way does not make me a police officer!"

I watched it lol. But I was thinking about using "dressed like a cop" as an exampled well before you linked the video (before I edited my 1st post).

NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote:

I'll bail you out.

Tim Griffiths wrote:
I don't know whether this is naivety or denial. How can any young woman who takes her clothes off and poses provocatively for the camera be surprised that men want to have sex with her, and sometimes ask for it? Men buy cameras for the express purpose of getting close to young women who take their clothes off. This surely can't be news. Even someone as gifted as Man Ray admitted that his interest in the naked female form was not entirely artistic, or not always so. So how do you think the guy who splurges three grand on kit and then joins up to a model/photographer site looks at it? Hint..wide eyed and pious claims to be purer than St Francis to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Virtual Studio wrote:
If one reads John Berger's "Ways of Seeing" (classic Art Criticism book) or Susan Sontag's "On Photography" then it's a very well supported theory in the more radical echelons of post modern art criticism. Not saying I agree with it - but there is a lot of academic support for this view of why men photograph naked women.

As a viewer of art I'd probably be interested in post-modern art criticism. As a model, I really don't want or need to psychoanalyze the deep-seated ulterior motives of a photographer at a shoot. I want to feel comfortable, damn it.

It's like, yes, my gynecologist has sex with women, but I assume during exams sex is the furthest thing from his mind. Otherwise I'd never go.