Lightcraft Studio wrote:
Toaster ovens, cars, reading glasses, houses, watches, computers (other than Apple of course), printers, umbrellas, and so on. Most of us buy new ones when WE say we're ready to do so, not when the manufacturer says "ready, set...buy!".

Wait.. you think that people who are buying these things are buying them *because apple told them so*?!?!  You're saying that they don't actually want them for their own reasons? They're just mindless drones who activate when apple pushes a button?

Come on.. rub a few brain cells together.. it'll feel good.

Wye wrote:

Wait.. you think that people who are buying these things are buying them *because apple told them so*?!?!

Precisely. I could see doing so if my current phone was broken or lost, and I wanted to wait for the latest one became available before replacing it. But... to replace a perfectly working model of something with a newer one is something most generally do on their own schedule, not the manufacturer's schedule.

Lightcraft Studio wrote:

Precisely. I could see doing so if my current phone was broken or lost, and I wanted to wait for the latest one became available before replacing it. But... to replace a perfectly working model of something with a newer one is something most generally do on their own schedule, not the manufacturer's schedule.

So this is only an apple thing?

Nobody ever bought a car to replace a working car? (gee.. I wonder where all those used cars come from.. must be aliens).

Nobody ever bought a new laptop before the old one broke? (Gee.. I wonder where all those used computers people keep talking about buying come from... must be aliens)

Come on.. just because you do something for whatever reasons you have doesn't mean that there aren't other reasons to do the same thing (in this case buy a new phone).

Connor Photography wrote:
who are there to order their iPhne 6 right after mid-nite tonite

Lightcraft Studio wrote:
Most of us buy replacement things when we need to, not the second new versions become available for purchase. Who runs out and replaces their GE dishwasher the second a new model is released?

Toaster ovens, cars, reading glasses, houses, watches, computers (other than Apple of course), printers, umbrellas, and so on. Most of us buy new ones when WE say we're ready to do so, not when the manufacturer says "ready, set...buy!".

Do current iPhone users have such monumental problems or complaints with their current versions that they absolutely  must get the newer one ASAP? Are the incremental upgrades (speed, memory, features, etc.) that are present with every new iteration of any product really that compelling that they justify someone shelling out a substantial amount of money the second they can?

It's an interesting phenomenon, and I can only assume that Apple's marketing strategy is the root cause for this behavior.

iPhone is an novelty item. washing machine is not in America.  Perhaps washing machines was a big deal in late 40' or early 50's. 

Yes, my current iPhone 4 is not working so well.  It was the home button problem.  Like to get a new phone with 4G speed.  In addition, I can brag about the new phone in front of my clients, hope they they will give me the multimillion dollars contract. 

Wye wrote:
Nobody ever bought a new laptop before the old one broke? (Gee.. I wonder where all those used computers people keep talking about buying come from... must be aliens)

People (men) do it all the time.  They replace their wife with a newer model.  The old lady is perfectly OK except 50 lbs heavier.  Well... women are getting up too.  Wife just gave me a notice.  Get a penile implant with remote control or out of the door.  Biitch

Wye wrote:
So this is only an apple thing?

Nobody ever bought a car to replace a working car? (gee.. I wonder where all those used cars come from.. must be aliens).

Nobody ever bought a new laptop before the old one broke? (Gee.. I wonder where all those used computers people keep talking about buying come from... must be aliens)

Come on.. just because you do something for whatever reasons you have doesn't mean that there aren't other reasons to do the same thing (in this case buy a new phone).

You completely missed the point... I didn't say people don't replace things... I said most people do so on their own schedule, not the manufacturer's schedule.

If I'm buying a new car, laptop, etc. I'll do so when I'm ready to do so. I'll read reviews, compare features and when the time is right, I will make my purchase.

You seem to be taking this observation personally... it's just my opinion of how the situation appears every time Apple comes out with the next version of something and there are people lined up waiting for the stores to open.

I think Apple has managed to create a mindset where their consumers think that they're cool for owning an Apple X, Y or Z, and can only remain cool if they have the absolute latest version of these products. It's a formula that works, so kudos to them for pulling it off.

Toto Photo wrote:
I never thought of that. Apple can be so short sighted sometimes. How tough would it have been to make a case that opened, like everyone else?

I still have the first version of the iPhone and it's still on its original battery. Pop-out batteries are overrated, IMO.

Lightcraft Studio wrote:
It's definitely a testament to Apple's genius in marketing to even hear a question like that.

Most of us buy replacement things when we need to, not the second new versions become available for purchase. Who runs out and replaces their GE dishwasher the second a new model is released?

Toaster ovens, cars, reading glasses, houses, watches, computers (other than Apple of course), printers, umbrellas, and so on. Most of us buy new ones when WE say we're ready to do so, not when the manufacturer says "ready, set...buy!".

Do current iPhone users have such monumental problems or complaints with their current versions that they absolutely  must get the newer one ASAP? Are the incremental upgrades (speed, memory, features, etc.) that are present with every new iteration of any product really that compelling that they justify someone shelling out a substantial amount of money the second they can?

It's an interesting phenomenon, and I can only assume that Apple's marketing strategy is the root cause for this behavior.

So you really believe that all the billions of dollars worth of merchandise in the world's largest national economy gets moved because, as you say, "most" people just wait until they're good and ready to get up off their butts and go to the store?

The phenomenon you're referring to is called "perceived obsolescence" or "artificial obsolescence," and it's one that's neither unique to Apple nor as uncommon as you assume.  If that were so, we wouldn't have such a level of hyper-consumerism as we do in our society.  Apple is really good at it, yeah, but it's all over the place, and has been since long before Apple came along.

http://www.smithsonianeducation.org/ide … onsume.htm

(excerpt, p.2) Advertisers made no secret of their intention to promote novelty for its own sake, in the hope that consumers would exchange perfectly serviceable goods for goods that conformed to the latest fashions. Earnest Elmo Calkins (1868-1964), one of the first to grasp the principle of "artificial obsolescence," distinguished between goods "we use" and "those we use up." It was the second category that fascinated advertisers and the manufacturers who followed their lead. "Artificial obsolescence," Calkins explained, meant the continual redesign of products, "entirely apart from any mechanical improvement, to make them markedly new, and encourage new buying, exactly as the fashion designers make shirts longer so you can no longer be happy with your short ones." The taste for "better things," as William L. Day pointed out, required an "ideal of beauty that happens to be current." "The world depends on obsolescence and new merchandise," said the industrial designer John Vassos.

Wye wrote:
So this is only an apple thing?

Nobody ever bought a car to replace a working car?

Lightcraft Studio wrote:
You completely missed the point... I didn't say people don't replace things... I said most people do so on their own schedule, not the manufacturer's schedule.

No, he didn't.  And he's right, you're projecting.

Lightcraft Studio wrote:

Precisely. I could see doing so if my current phone was broken or lost, and I wanted to wait for the latest one became available before replacing it. But... to replace a perfectly working model of something with a newer one is something most generally do on their own schedule, not the manufacturer's schedule.

Your argument is strange.

Let's say I want to replace my working car because it's 12 years old and has 178,000 miles on it.

I could buy a 2014 model today. Or, I could wait a few weeks/months and wait for the 2015 model to be available.  The 2015 model may have better features that I may want and may cost me a little more. So am I buying a new car on the manufacturer's schedule? Or just making a decision based on my wants?

There only a few products that are released for purchase on a schedule. Cars and flagship phones are two such products. The rest of the market doesn't really work that way.

Good Egg Productions wrote:
There only a few products that are released for purchase on a schedule. Cars and flagship phones are two such products. The rest of the market doesn't really work that way.

And even with that, it doesn't make sense to credit "Apple's marketing strategy is the root cause for this behavior."  Whenever Nike comes out with a new shoe, there are people jump on it regardless of what's in their closet.  If L'Oreal comes out with a new mascara, plenty of people want it despite what's in their kit already.  There are people who wait line when Samsung releases a new phone, when Microsoft releases a new Xbox or when Sony releases a new TV.  When GE offers a new dishwasher, you can bet there are people who want it despite the fact that their old one still works. 

They buy those things because those things are introduced to the market in way that triggers that response.  Not solely because they're good and ready to buy something.  To believe that all the time and money that gets dumped into an ad campaign in hopes that the timing coincides with everybody being ready to dump their old stuff is naive at best.

But apparently, LC thinks either Apple invented effective marketing, or Apple users en masse are the few who are too weak-minded to resist it, unlike himself.  Maybe he doesn't, but that's what his words are saying.

Lightcraft Studio wrote:

You completely missed the point... I didn't say people don't replace things... I said most people do so on their own schedule, not the manufacturer's schedule.

If I'm buying a new car, laptop, etc. I'll do so when I'm ready to do so. I'll read reviews, compare features and when the time is right, I will make my purchase.

You seem to be taking this observation personally... it's just my opinion of how the situation appears every time Apple comes out with the next version of something and there are people lined up waiting for the stores to open.

I think Apple has managed to create a mindset where their consumers think that they're cool for owning an Apple X, Y or Z, and can only remain cool if they have the absolute latest version of these products. It's a formula that works, so kudos to them for pulling it off.

I think you must have fallen on your head.  You actually think that Apple created this phenomenon?  How can I possibly be taking it personally when I have very clearly (and repeatedly) stated I'm *not* upgrading to the latest and greatest -- heck I'm 2 generations behind at this point -- and not even particularly happy with the new offerings?

According to you people don't wait for the next model year of a new car to be released before they buy a new one to replace their current one.. the moment they decide "hey.. this car could be better" they just go get one.

Nobody ever waits for the manufacturer to release their new hardware before they replace their current model.. they just do it on their schedule.. regardless of what the manufacturer says will be coming out.


I repeat.. come on man.. rub a few brain cells together.. it will feel *really* good.

Good Egg Productions wrote:
Your argument is strange.

Let's say I want to replace my working car because it's 12 years old and has 178,000 miles on it.

I could buy a 2014 model today. Or, I could wait a few weeks/months and wait for the 2015 model to be available.  The 2015 model may have better features that I may want and may cost me a little more. So am I buying a new car on the manufacturer's schedule? Or just making a decision based on my wants?

Wanting to replace your old, high-mileage car is in my opinion a very valid reason for shopping for a new car. That is completely different from the mentality of people waiting until midnight the second it goes on sale so they can be first in line to buy this year's new Apple product when they already have a working version of last year's Apple product.

Lightcraft Studio wrote:

Wanting to replace your old, high-mileage car is in my opinion a very valid reason for shopping for a new car. That is completely different from the mentality of people waiting until midnight so they can be first in line to buy this year's new Apple product when they already have a working version of last year's Apple product.

Ah.. so you've been in line and asked everyone.

Not a single one of them had an iPhone 4? None of them have a family member who wants to replace their 3GS but doesn't want to buy a new phone? So they go get a new one themselves and gift their current phone to the family member?

None of them with broken phones?

None of them are just excited to get a bigger phone (inexplicable to me but everyone has different needs)?

Please.. illuminate everyone with the statistics you've gathered talking to everyone who's ordering one.

Wye wrote:
Ah.. so you've been in line and asked everyone.

Not a single one of them had an iPhone 4? None of them have a family member who wants to replace their 3GS but doesn't want to buy a new phone? So they go get a new one themselves and gift their current phone to the family member?

None of them with broken phones?

None of them are just excited to get a bigger phone (inexplicable to me but everyone has different needs)?

Please.. illuminate everyone with the statistics you've gathered talking to everyone who's ordering one.

Granted, a lot of the images of people lined up outside Apple stores is pure marketing BS on the part of Apple... which is sort of my point.

My point being that we rarely see this sort of frenzy (or apparent frenzy) to rush out and buy the latest version of some existing product with other types of everyday products/gadgets.

I say it's great marketing genius on the part of Apple... even if it doesn't account for all 100% of their sales.

Lightcraft Studio wrote:
Wanting to replace your old, high-mileage car is in my opinion a very valid reason for shopping for a new car. That is completely different from the mentality of people waiting until midnight the second it goes on sale so they can be first in line to buy this year's new Apple product when they already have a working version of last year's Apple product.

Agreed.  But you still seem to be saying Apple is the cause of it all, and that it's THE way Apple customers behave.  In which case, you're not dealing with reality.

I'm just going to highlight a couple of earlier points:

Lumatic wrote:
So you really believe that all the billions of dollars worth of merchandise in the world's largest national economy gets moved because, as you say, "most" people just wait until they're good and ready to get up off their butts and go to the store?

Lumatic wrote:
http://www.smithsonianeducation.org/ide … onsume.htm
"Artificial obsolescence," Calkins explained, meant the continual redesign of products, "entirely apart from any mechanical improvement, to make them markedly new, and encourage new buying, exactly as the fashion designers make shirts longer so you can no longer be happy with your short ones."

Lumatic wrote:
They buy those things because those things are introduced to the market in way that triggers that response.  Not solely because they're good and ready to buy something.  To believe that all the time and money that gets dumped into an ad campaign in hopes that the timing coincides with everybody being ready to dump their old stuff is naive at best.

Lightcraft Studio wrote:

Granted, a lot of the images of people lined up outside Apple stores is pure marketing BS on the part of Apple... which is sort of my point.

My point being that we rarely see this sort of frenzy (or apparent frenzy) to rush out and buy the latest version of some existing product with other types of everyday products/gadgets.

I say it's great marketing genius on the part of Apple... even if it doesn't account for all 100% of their sales.

So all of those things you stated as facts before are, in fact.. well.. not.

Good to see you've understood the error of your ways.  Knowledge is power.

Lightcraft Studio wrote:

Granted, a lot of the images of people lined up outside Apple stores is pure marketing BS on the part of Apple... which is sort of my point.

My point being that we rarely see this sort of frenzy (or apparent frenzy) to rush out and buy the latest version of some existing product with other types of everyday products/gadgets.

I say it's great marketing genius on the part of Apple... even if it doesn't account for all 100% of their sales.

Oh please. Unless it's the newest game system from Microsoft or Sony. Or the latest Call of Duty game.  Or the newest Air Jordans.  Or the newest Naked palette.  Or it's the day after thanksgiving.

It happens all over the place with all kinds of products. You just pay way too much attention to Apple.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Jumping up to the 100,000 foot perspective.

When the iPhone first came out, it was the only smartphone choice, and appropriately Apple stock soared.  But a few years later, when the Apple fans predicted that the stock price would continue to double & triple year after year, I scoffed.  I predicted...
...  The competition will catch up (which they have),
...  Apple will have to shift from innovation to competition (which it has),
...  Apple will need to depend more on marketing to its installed base, as
     opposed to gaining new customers (which has happened),
...  Stock prices will plateau out (which it has, factoring the 7:1 split).

Still, the Apple faithful would post predictions of (pre-7:1 split) prices of around 1600 by years end -- that basically means that Apple's stock would have to double in value in the next 3 months.  No, I don't see that happening.  I offered to make a friendly wager on the stock price, but the Apple fanatics refused to take me up on it.

You're being disingenuous.  You talk as if all the people who like apple products were talking like this when it was, to my recollection, just one.  Very misleading.

Good Egg Productions wrote:

Oh please. Unless it's the newest game system from Microsoft or Sony. Or the latest Call of Duty game.  Or the newest Air Jordans.  Or the newest Naked palette.  Or it's the day after thanksgiving.

It happens all over the place with all kinds of products. You just pay way too much attention to Apple.

It's called confirmation bias and he has a scorching case of it.

Lumatic wrote:
Agreed.  But you still seem to be saying Apple is the cause of it all, and that it's THE way Apple customers behave.  In which case, you're not dealing with reality.

I don't think Apple is the cause of it all, nor do I think they invented the concept (after all, they've only  been around for 38 years). I do however think that they have mastered the concept and have taken it to a whole new level.  This is to their credit, and their company (and shareholders) have benefited immensely as a result. I don't think it's a great benefit to those consumers who do get pulled into that sort of thinking and spend more than they need to spend for things.

Lightcraft Studio wrote:
My point being that we rarely see this sort of frenzy (or apparent frenzy) to rush out and buy the latest version of some existing product with other types of everyday products/gadgets.

I say it's great marketing genius on the part of Apple... even if it doesn't account for all 100% of their sales.

"Apparent" is probably more accurate.  Don't forget the level of penetration into the marketplace and the nature of functionality that cellphones enjoy.  That's why it appears to be such a big deal compared to refrigerators.

There's just as much of a commotion amongst Samsung users when they release a new Galaxy.

Lumatic wrote:
There's just as much of a commotion amongst Samsung users when they release a new Galaxy.

Actually, I've never (or very rarely at least) seen this sort of thing with other phones or other types of products before (unless of course it's some one-day price-slashed sale or something).

http://www.techtimes.com/articles/14964 … stores.htm

We see these sorts of stories every time Apple comes out with version XYZ of something.

Lightcraft Studio wrote:

Actually, I've never (or very rarely at least) seen this sort of thing with other phones or other types of products before (unless of course it's some one-day price-slashed sale or something).

http://www.techtimes.com/articles/14964 … stores.htm

We see these sorts of stories every time Apple comes out with version XYZ of something.

So you didn't see the lines for the PS2, PS3 and PS4 then?  Or the Xbox 360 and Xbox one?

And nobody's ever waited in line for a samsung phone.. never ever.. that's for sure

http://www.businessinsider.com/samsung- … les-2014-4




Sorry chum.. a terrible terrible case of confirmation bias is your diagnosis.. treatment? Opening your eyes.

Wye wrote:

So you didn't see the lines for the PS2, PS3 and PS4 then?  Or the Xbox 360 and Xbox one?

And nobody's ever waited in line for a samsung phone.. never ever.. that's for sure

http://www.businessinsider.com/samsung- … les-2014-4




Sorry chum.. a terrible terrible case of confirmation bias is your diagnosis.. treatment? Opening your eyes.

I just walked in the store and picked up my Samsung S5.  No wait.

Lightcraft Studio wrote:
Do current iPhone users have such monumental problems or complaints with their current versions that they absolutely  must get the newer one ASAP? Are the incremental upgrades (speed, memory, features, etc.) that are present with every new iteration of any product really that compelling that they justify someone shelling out a substantial amount of money the second they can?

https://secure.marketwatch.com/story/ap … 2012-09-12

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

I just walked in the store and picked up my Samsung S5.  No wait.

They made you go to a store?  Man.. that sucks for you.

I got my iPhone 5 delivered right to me on set while I was working on a movie.

Wye wrote:
So you didn't see the lines for the PS2, PS3 and PS4 then?  Or the Xbox 360 and Xbox one?

And nobody's ever waited in line for a samsung phone.. never ever.. that's for sure

http://www.businessinsider.com/samsung- … les-2014-4




Sorry chum.. a terrible terrible case of confirmation bias is your diagnosis.. treatment? Opening your eyes.

Yep. 

http://www.phonearena.com/news/Samsung- … es_id55092



People waited in line for a WEEK for these Nikes:
http://thegrio.com/2012/06/08/shoe-seek … /#47740575

Someone got stabbed.

I remember lines for new Windows OS's, new Cabbage Patch dolls, new Beanie Babies, and on and on.

Arnold made a movie about the phenomenon, for chrissakes.

Look around.

Wye wrote:
But since Lightcraft has never seen it.. it never happened.

Well gee, I'll declare you the big winner of this pissing contest. I'll now admit that it's only my bias that makes it seem like we often see stories or Apple fans lining up outside stores to get the latest and greatest (or waiting until midnight to order on the night ordering starts being available).  My obvious bias is probably rooted in some evil propaganda campaign conducted by Apple's competitors designed to make these people look like fools or something.

Carry on.

Lightcraft Studio wrote:

Well gee, I'll declare you the big winner of this pissing contest. I'll now admit that it's only my bias that makes it seem like we often see stories or Apple fans lining up outside stores to get the latest and greatest (or waiting until midnight to order on the night ordering starts being available).  My obvious bias is probably rooted in some evil propaganda campaign conducted by Apple's competitors designed to make these people look like fools or something.

Nah.. there's no conspiracy.. you're just choosing to see what you want to see.

The trick is to understand that you (the general you) are inherently biased and one must expend extra effort to overcome it.  Look around the world more carefully.. remember what it is that you see and process it so that your opinions can be well rounded rather than one sided.

Wye wrote:

They made you go to a store?  Man.. that sucks for you.

I got my iPhone 5 delivered right to me on set while I was working on a movie.

I didn't have to go to a store.  It was convenient for me.

Wye wrote:
The trick is to understand that you (the general you) are inherently biased and one must expend extra effort to overcome it.

Look around the world more carefully.. remember what it is that you see and process it so that your opinions can be well rounded rather than one sided.

Obviously, I do need to improve myself in this regard. In my own defense, there's bias all over the place... for example, this old-ish New York Times article on "early adapters" also appears to be biased against (or is it "for") Apple:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/09/busin … .html?_r=0

Other articles, like this one, dig deeper:

http://blog.agoeldi.com/2010/01/29/high … f-its-own/

I wish you had offered your advice to me before I retired from my long-term employer (ACNielsen) where we were involved in testing/measuring/analyzing consumer behavior, ad concepts, effectiveness of different types of advertising, and so on.  I spent so much time dealing with details like demographics, sample sizes, trends, affinity, awareness, and so on that perhaps I can't grasp the big picture as well as other random people on the Internet.

Lightcraft Studio wrote:

Obviously, I do need to improve myself in this regard. In my own defense, there's bias all over the place... for example, this old-ish New York Times article on "early adapters" also appears to be biased against (or is it "for") Apple:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/09/busin … .html?_r=0

Other articles, like this one, dig deeper:

http://blog.agoeldi.com/2010/01/29/high … f-its-own/

I wish you had offered your advice to me before I retired from my long-term employer (ACNielsen) where we were involved in testing/measuring/analyzing consumer behavior, ad concepts, effectiveness of different types of advertising, and so on.  I spent so much time dealing with details like demographics, sample sizes, trends, affinity, awareness, and so on that perhaps I can't grasp the big picture as well as other random people on the Internet.

I don't know how good you were at your job so I can't comment on that.. nor can I speak about other random people on the internet but all the evidence in this thread points to the fact that you cannot, in fact, see the big picture as well as I do -- at the very least on this issue.  You've been demonstrably wrong from the start.

As for their being bias everywhere.. yes.. that's obvious.  It doesn't make them any less biased (or wrong).

Wye wrote:
...points to the fact that you cannot, in fact, see the big picture as well as I do -- at the very least on this issue.

Well, of course not... no amount of real world experience is a match for an IE (Internet Expert).

Lightcraft Studio wrote:

Well, of course not... no amount of real world experience is a match for an IE (Internet Expert).

+1