Brian Diaz wrote:
Think about the media coverage leading up to her Diane Sawyer interview.  She was clearing being harassed by paparazzi about her gender identity without yet having made any public statement about it.  She wasn't given the option to keep her decision and transition private.

The spotlight was unavoidable.  But she was able to go forward on her terms.  Frankly, in the same situation, I'd rather my story be told by Diane 20/20 and Vanity Fair than by TMZ and The National Enquirer.

My point is that if all this wasn't in the spotlight, if there was not continued fame and additional fortune to be made, this would not be happening.  It's all a show.  The paparazzi, TMZ and The National Enquirer are all playing their own roles in promoting this entertainment that is being billed as something heroic.

Bruce Jenner is in the spotlight because he chooses to be in the spotlight, he craves being in the spotlight.  Think about it, how many living Olympic Gold Medal winners are currently alive in the US?  How many can you name?  How many are in the spotlight?  His Olympic wins have nothing to do with the media attention he is getting.  The attention comes from him being a Kardashian media whore.

Jules NYC wrote:
If women have to get evaluated just to get a boob job, don't you think there is psychological testing for gender assignment surgery?

I just can't imagine any doctor would cut off a penis without asking a few questions first.
I don't believe that this is for fame, money, etc.

Psychological evaluations for elective cosmetic surgeries are not much more than a procedure.  If the surgeon wants to sell you the cosmetic surgery, you will pass the evaluation.

Example:  My ex-wife wanted bariatric surgery to lose weight.  She had multiple problems that caused her eating issues, but concealed those problems during her evaluation interviews.  They approved her and she had the surgery.  The first year she was happy, as the weight was coming off.  Then she got down to goal weight and became depressed.  She began to drink and smoke.  She went out to bars and had sexual relations with strangers.  She lied to get pills from doctors and cut herself.  When she finally went so far that she was put in hospital, the doctor told me her actions were typical of someone who had bariatric surgery before dealing with the underlying problems.  He said the bariatric surgery business did a poor job of screening patients, diagnosing the underlying issues and insisting on treatment before surgery. 

So if anyone says there is psychological evaluations before gender reassignment surgery, I have no faith in it.

ernst tischler wrote:
You can stop right there.  My use of Bruce Jenner's name is in no way insulting to anyone, not to Bruce and certainly not to the "entire transgender community."  I have not referred in any manner to anyone other than Bruce Jenner in my comments on this thread. 

I choose to call him by his name, Bruce Jenner, because as I have explained in my previous comments, I do not believe this is nothing more than his next act to continue his (in)fame and fortune.  He is a media attention whore just like the rest of the Kardashians he chose to associate himself with,

I don't buy his BS and I refuse to play into it by calling him Caitlyn or her or she.

Calling a transgender person by a gender or name they have asked not to be called by is something that is deeply insulting to the transgender community.  This is not my opinion.  These are their words.  You are insulting them.  They have said so.  You do not get to say they are not insulted.  Your take is not hot or new.  It is something every transgender person faces: for various reason people declare their transition false.  I see, Ernst, that you were, according to your profile, a full time working artist.  Try to picture a world where people vocally insisted that you were not an artist, even though you said you were, even though you made art, and you made a living from that art.  That you were NOT and artist.  You were a fraud.  And they insisted on addressing you as "Fraud", not Ernst.  This is what transgender people face, and what you are doing. 

ernst tischler wrote:
I fully understand that in order to pass as a female, Bruce must wear what a woman would wear.  I have not taken issue with that.  There are many 65 year old women who do NOT try to make themselves look 35 in photographs.  They are secure in their age and present themselves accordingly.

I see.  So women are only correct real women when they present themselves in the way you, a man and complete stranger have deemed attractive to you?

Jules NYC wrote:
I watched the interview with Diane Sawyer and it was billed as the interview with Bruce Jenner.

At the time of the Sawyer interview she still wished to be addressed as Bruce Jenner.  Now she does not.

ernst tischler wrote:
So if anyone says there is psychological evaluations before gender reassignment surgery, I have no faith in it.

"In current medical practice, a diagnosis is required for sex reassignment therapy."

"While a mental health assessment is required by the standards of care, psychotherapy is not an absolute requirement but is highly recommended."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_reassignment_therapy

I'm sorry you don't believe facts.

ernst tischler wrote:

Psychological evaluations for elective cosmetic surgeries are not much more than a procedure.  If the surgeon wants to sell you the cosmetic surgery, you will pass the evaluation.

Example:  My ex-wife wanted bariatric surgery to lose weight.  She had multiple problems that caused her eating issues, but concealed those problems during her evaluation interviews.  They approved her and she had the surgery.  The first year she was happy, as the weight was coming off.  Then she got down to goal weight and became depressed.  She began to drink and smoke.  She went out to bars and had sexual relations with strangers.  She lied to get pills from doctors and cut herself.  When she finally went so far that she was put in hospital, the doctor told me her actions were typical of someone who had bariatric surgery before dealing with the underlying problems.  He said the bariatric surgery business did a poor job of screening patients, diagnosing the underlying issues and insisting on treatment before surgery. 

So if anyone says there is psychological evaluations before gender reassignment surgery, I have no faith in it.

I rewrote something similar to your story, elements of it at best, then chose to erase it to protect privacy.
One can front anything to get what they want to medical professionals.
Anything from faking PTSD to get a pot card to evading serious medical issues.

Despite it all, I don't believe the subject at hand is a media ploy for a variety of reasons.

ernst tischler wrote:
My point is that if all this wasn't in the spotlight, if there was not continued fame and additional fortune to be made, this would not be happening.  It's all a show.  The paparazzi, TMZ and The National Enquirer are all playing their own roles in promoting this entertainment that is being billed as something heroic.

Sure, if.  But if is not the reality of the situation.  Why begrudge a woman for choosing a path with a bit of dignity, rather than trying to keep things private and allowing the less legitimate media to make whatever derogatory and likely false statements they feel like making.

Do you understand that even if Caitlyn does crave media attention, the publicity of the story is encouraging to many people young and old to be true to themselves, rather than living a lie? 

Do you get that this is bigger than one person?

And do you get that when you deny that one person, when you refuse to call her Caitlyn, those who might be inspired to be true to themselves see that society may not be willing to accept them for who they are?  How you treat Caitlyn is how they will expect to be treated by you, and by many others they have to deal with in daily life.

Victoria Elle wrote:

At the time of the Sawyer interview she still wished to be addressed as Bruce Jenner.  Now she does not.

I understand that.  I just think people who oppose the gender reassignment, calling Caitlyn by her original name is what is comfortable for them.

Yes, it is Caitlyn's wish to be addressed as such and it would be 'nice' to respect that.  Thing is, for those who are not on board, it's forcing someone to accept what they don't.

Is that fair either?

Shot By Adam wrote:
I'm so absolutely sick and tired of people calling this "courageous". I'm sorry, but a soldier running into gunfire to save a fellow comrade is courageous. A 65 year old self-absorbed freak show declaring to the world on a "reality" show that he wants to suddenly become a woman is not.

Well, that degraded quickly, and only the third post in!

Jules NYC wrote:
I understand that.  I just think people who oppose the gender reassignment, calling Caitlyn by her original name is what is comfortable for them.

Yes, it is Caitlyn's wish to be addressed as such and it would be 'nice' to respect that.  Thing is, for those who are not on board, it's forcing someone to accept what they don't.

Is that fair either?

It's not about comfort, they are using it as an insult. 

You can't force someone to accept anything, but pointing out their intolerance is in no way unfair.

Victoria Elle wrote:

It's not about comfort, they are using it as an insult. 

You can't force someone to accept anything, but pointing out their intolerance is in no way unfair.

Yes, some may be using it as an insult, but is that an absolute?

ernst tischler wrote:
So if anyone says there is psychological evaluations before gender reassignment surgery, I have no faith in it.

You seem to have decided to be uninformed on this issue.

The World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) advises practitioners (surgeons, therapists, etc) on recommended Standards of Care (SOC) for those seeking gender transition, and the SOC are in line with the standards of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) used by mental health practitioners in the United States.

Not all transgender folks desire Gender Reassignment Surgery (GRS), but for those who do a mental health evaluation, sustained therapy and living in one's target gender full time for a year (6 months minimum) is recommended by WPATH. It is extremely difficult to find a surgeon who will perform that procedure unless these criteria have been met, and most surgeons will require letters from the therapist and at least one other medical professional to validate that this has all happened.

So, yes, there are psychological evaluations.

Jules NYC wrote:

I understand that.  I just think people who oppose the gender reassignment, calling Caitlyn by her original name is what is comfortable for them.

Yes, it is Caitlyn's wish to be addressed as such and it would be 'nice' to respect that.  Thing is, for those who are not on board, it's forcing someone to accept what they don't.

Is that fair either?

Hi Julie, I agree and want to give some additional perspective about the choice of names.

Asides from the gender identity... I think it is a sign of respect for another human being when that being expresses to be addressed with a name other than the one written in their birth certificate.

E.g., I just got off the phone with an old friend, one of the most creative artists I know, whose legal name is Lynn, but in her youth up into her late 40's, she was called Lynnzy... then, for almost two decades she was called "Lynn"... and recently decided to go back to be called "Lynnzy"... and, although I used to call her "Lynn", I respect her choice and after a short adjustment period, I am calling her Lynnzy.

There are other examples, even with me... my birth name is Udo and my last name starts with R... I went from "Udo R. Photography" to "UdoR Photography" to "Udor Photography" and ended up with "udor photography", accepting other people's pronunciation of my first name, first letter of last name combo, until I accepted it and prefer to go by "udor" (lower case) for about a decade now. That's what I prefer to be called, because that is my identity as an artist.

There are many other cases out of real life... heck... if your name is "Christina", but you want to be called "Krissy", why should I disrespect her wish to be addressed as "Krissy"? Just because her legal name is "Christina"?

So, if any person, independent from gender identity, wishes to be addressed with a certain first name, out of respect for that person, I will do so...

I do believe that a person who refuses to call "Bruce" "Caitlyn" because "Bruce" is the "real" name, but accepts his buddy "Angelo" being addressed with a different name, e.g. a nickname, is kinda hypocritical... and shows a level of transphobia... but, that's just my opinion, which is not really qualified.

udor wrote:

Hi Julie, I agree and want to give some additional perspective about the choice of names.

Asides from the gender identity... I think it is a sign of respect for another human being when that being expresses to be addressed with a name other than the one written in their birth certificate.

E.g., I just got off the phone with an old friend, one of the most creative artists I know, whose legal name is Lynn, but in her youth up into her late 40's, she was called Lynnzy... then, for almost two decades she was called "Lynn"... and recently decided to go back to be called "Lynnzy"... and, although I used to call her "Lynn", I respect her choice and after a short adjustment period, I am calling her Lynnzy.

There are other examples, even with me... my birth name is Udo and my last name starts with R... I went from "Udo R. Photography" to "UdoR Photography" to "Udor Photography" and ended up with "udor photography", accepting other people's pronunciation of my first name, first letter of last name combo, until I accepted it and prefer to go by "udor" (lower case) for about a decade now. That's what I prefer to be called, because that is my identity as an artist.

There are many other cases out of real life... heck... if your name is "Christina", but you want to be called "Krissy", why should I disrespect her wish to be addressed as "Krissy"? Just because her legal name is "Christina"?

So, if any person, independent from gender identity, wishes to be addressed with a certain first name, out of respect for that person, I will do so...

I do believe that a person who refuses to call "Bruce" "Caitlyn" because "Bruce" is the "real" name, but accepts his buddy "Angelo" being addressed with a different name, e.g. a nickname, is kinda hypocritical... and shows a level of transphobia... but, that's just my opinion, which is not really qualified.

I hear that.

One of my friends legally changed her name.  I haven't spoken to her in a while but it's really weird for me, but of course I'll call her what she chose, be it for her career or personal reasons.

Jules NYC wrote:

Yes, some may be using it as an insult, but is that an absolute?

No.  People will make honest mistakes, and the transgender community understands that (although it can still be just as hurtful as intentional misgendering).  Many members here are not making honest mistakes.

If this was a conversation about an African American, and members of this site were continually referring to them as the n-word, people would be understandably upset.  But at one time it was appropriate to use the n-word.  The way we as a society moved from understanding that it is no longer appropriate is by speaking out about it.

Victoria Elle wrote:
No.  People will make honest mistakes, and the transgender community understands that (although it can still be just as hurtful as intentional misgendering).  Many members here are not making honest mistakes.

If this was a conversation about an African American, and members of this site were continually referring to them as the n-word, people would be understandably upset.  But at one time it was appropriate to use the n-word.  The way we as a society moved from understanding that it is no longer appropriate is by speaking out about it.

I hear you.

There is a difference of political correctness and mean-spiritedness.  If I call a black person the N word, that's not cool.  If I were black, different story.  I personally think African American is so weird to say.  Anyone that's black and my friend never had an issue with it.  That's not an absolute of course for those not my friends.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51vFbsZkhXU

and for further study...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iau-e6HfOg0

Victoria Elle wrote:
It's not about comfort, they are using it as an insult.

By what authority do you propose to be able to divine how I, or anyone else, is using the name Bruce Jenner, or the pronouns he, him or his?  I simply believe this is a fraud being perpetrated for the purposed of continued fame and fortune, so I refuse to participate in it by calling him Caitlyn.  No insults or hate involved, I'm just not playing into the BS.

Victoria Elle wrote:
You can't force someone to accept anything, but pointing out their intolerance is in no way unfair.

You refuse to hear that my problem is with Bruce Jenner, not transgenders in general.  The fact that becoming a woman is what he has chosen for his attempt to stay relevant in the public eye post Kardashian is irrelevant.  It is a stunt, nothing more.

ernst tischler wrote:
So if anyone says there is psychological evaluations before gender reassignment surgery, I have no faith in it.

Michelle Genevieve wrote:
You seem to have decided to be uninformed on this issue.

The World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH) advises practitioners (surgeons, therapists, etc) on recommended Standards of Care (SOC) for those seeking gender transition, and the SOC are in line with the standards of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) used by mental health practitioners in the United States.

Not all transgender folks desire Gender Reassignment Surgery (GRS), but for those who do a mental health evaluation, sustained therapy and living in one's target gender full time for a year (6 months minimum) is recommended by WPATH. It is extremely difficult to find a surgeon who will perform that procedure unless these criteria have been met, and most surgeons will require letters from the therapist and at least one other medical professional to validate that this has all happened.

So, yes, there are psychological evaluations.

No, I am very informed.  I lived the situation I described with my ex-wife and during the divorce I educated myself on the standards and practices because I was considering a suit against the surgeon.

The same protocol you described for gender reassignment applied to the bariatric surgery.  There had to be an "independent" mental health evaluation, "therapy" (which was mandatory attendance to group classes) and being on a weight loss schedule for at least six months.  All this is certified by the mental health professional and the bariatric surgery coordinator at the hospital where the surgery is performed.  The surgeon will not schedule the surgery until all the paperwork is certified and submitted to his office.  They all cover their ass with using their friends who are "independent" and know what to write on the forms to approve you.  If you have the money, you can get the surgery.

Those guidelines may have been written with good intentions, but in reality they exist to protect those who are just in the elective surgery business for the money.  If something goes wrong, they produce all the paperwork to prove they did everything by the book, so it's not their fault.

ernst tischler wrote:
You refuse to hear that my problem is with Bruce Jenner, not transgenders in general.  The fact that becoming a woman is what he has chosen for his attempt to stay relevant in the public eye post Kardashian is irrelevant.  It is a stunt, nothing more.

You refuse to hear that your problem with Caitlyn Jenner is a problem for transgenders in general.  Your refusal to call her "her" makes it harder for every other transgender to be recognized as something other than a liar or a freak show.

ernst tischler wrote:
By what authority do you propose to be able to divine how I, or anyone else, is using the name Bruce Jenner, or the pronouns he, him or his?  I simply believe this is a fraud being perpetrated for the purposed of continued fame and fortune, so I refuse to participate in it by calling him Caitlyn.  No insults or hate involved, I'm just not playing into the BS.


You refuse to hear that my problem is with Bruce Jenner, not transgenders in general.  The fact that becoming a woman is what he has chosen for his attempt to stay relevant in the public eye post Kardashian is irrelevant.  It is a stunt, nothing more.

When someone asks you not to call them something, because calling them that insults them, and you intentionally continue to call them that, YOU ARE INSULTING THEM.  You know you are.  You can pretend you aren't, but you are. 

I do hear you, but what you did not hear is the part where I said transgender people commonly hear that argument whether they are famous or not.  It is transphobic to believe a transgender person is transitioning for attention NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE.

ernst tischler wrote:
No, I am very informed.  I lived the situation I described with my ex-wife and during the divorce I educated myself on the standards and practices because I was considering a suit against the surgeon.

The same protocol you described for gender reassignment applied to the bariatric surgery.  There had to be an "independent" mental health evaluation, "therapy" (which was mandatory attendance to group classes) and being on a weight loss schedule for at least six months.  All this is certified by the mental health professional and the bariatric surgery coordinator at the hospital where the surgery is performed.  The surgeon will not schedule the surgery until all the paperwork is certified and submitted to his office.  They all cover their ass with using their friends who are "independent" and know what to write on the forms to approve you.  If you have the money, you can get the surgery.

Those guidelines may have been written with good intentions, but in reality they exist to protect those who are just in the elective surgery business for the money.  If something goes wrong, they produce all the paperwork to prove they did everything by the book, so it's not their fault.

You did not live the situation.  Your ex-wife is not transgender.  Weight loss surgery is not the same thing.

ernst tischler wrote:
You refuse to hear that my problem is with Bruce Jenner, not transgenders in general.  The fact that becoming a woman is what he has chosen for his attempt to stay relevant in the public eye post Kardashian is irrelevant.  It is a stunt, nothing more.

Brian Diaz wrote:
You refuse to hear that your problem with Caitlyn Jenner is a problem for transgenders in general.  Your refusal to call her "her" makes it harder for every other transgender to be recognized as something other than a liar or a freak show.

No.

I am a live and let live person.  I have been very clear where my comments have been aimed.  My comments are about Bruce and Bruce only.  Any attempt to drag my comments onto anyone else or any group of people is on you and your intolerance of my opinion about Bruce.     

Bruce being continual freak show for years prior to his recent revelation is what could possibly make it more difficult for some with legitimate gender identity issues to be recognized.

Victoria Elle wrote:
When someone asks you not to call them something, because calling them that insults them, and you intentionally continue to call them that, YOU ARE INSULTING THEM.  You know you are.  You can pretend you aren't, but you are.

I'm sorry, but Bruce has not called me and asked me not to call him Bruce.

Victoria Elle wrote:
I do hear you, but what you did not hear is the part where I said transgender people commonly hear that argument whether they are famous or not.  It is transphobic to believe a transgender person is transitioning for attention NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE.

Did you really read what you wrote here? 

"It is transphobic to believe a transgender person is transitioning for attention NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE."

So what if that person really is transitioning for attention?   

What is the big word name for when you call someone a big word name because they simply disagree with you?

Victoria Elle wrote:
You did not live the situation.  Your ex-wife is not transgender.  Weight loss surgery is not the same thing.

So there is no misunderstanding or attempts by others to cast my comments onto any other person or persons, my comments pertain to Bruce Jenner only.

You have just shown you know nothing of eating disorders and the psychological issues behind them.  It is every bit, if not more serious, than gender identity.  As children, overweight children suffer as much, or more, abuse from their peers and at the same time have increased risk factors for all sorts of deadly health issues. 

Just as you cannot fix a person's underlying psychological eating issues with bariatric surgery, you cannot fix a person's underlying psychological attention seeking issues with gender reassignment.

Victoria Elle wrote:
When someone asks you not to call them something, because calling them that insults them, and you intentionally continue to call them that, YOU ARE INSULTING THEM.  You know you are.  You can pretend you aren't, but you are. 

I do hear you, but what you did not hear is the part where I said transgender people commonly hear that argument whether they are famous or not.  It is transphobic to believe a transgender person is transitioning for attention NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE.

In any social consciousness raising, there's the last double down vocal gasps of the bigots....until their nattering backwards point of view becomes obsolete. Good for Ms. Jenner and to all who won't feel like a freak show because of their gender dysphoria.

Jules NYC wrote:
I understand that.  I just think people who oppose the gender reassignment, calling Caitlyn by her original name is what is comfortable for them.

are free to leave their own gender as-assigned

Yes, it is Caitlyn's wish to be addressed as such and it would be 'nice' to respect that.  Thing is, for those who are not on board, it's forcing someone to accept what they don't.

Is that fair either?

yes, sir ..

Jpod_model wrote:
In any social consciousness raising, there's the last double down vocal gasps of the bigots....until their nattering backwards point of view becomes obsolete. Good for Ms. Jenner and to all who won't feel like a freak show because of their gender dysphoria.

There are a lot of good people who go around on their own dime, raising awareness for a variety of good causes. 

There are others who go around making millions on the pretense of raising awareness for a good cause. 

Jenner has the potential of doing much good.

MN Photography wrote:
I've dated two women  ....

Well good for you!   So how does this make you qualified to speak on transgenders?

ernst tischler wrote:
I'm sorry, but Bruce has not called me and asked me not to call him Bruce.

Seriously? How many people did you call to ask them not to call you anything other than Ernst? Why is a public announcement insufficient notice of one's proper name?

ernst tischler wrote:
...and if this is the case, those around him should be seeing to it he gets the help he needs, instead of encouraging the behavior so they can profit from it.

She is getting the help she needs.  Having all that surgery done is not some sort of "behavior."

ernst tischler wrote:

Victoria Elle wrote:
It's not about comfort, they are using it as an insult.

By what authority do you propose to be able to divine how I, or anyone else, is using the name Bruce Jenner, or the pronouns he, him or his?  I simply believe this is a fraud being perpetrated for the purposed of continued fame and fortune, so I refuse to participate in it by calling him Caitlyn.  No insults or hate involved, I'm just not playing into the BS.


You refuse to hear that my problem is with Bruce Jenner, not transgenders in general.  The fact that becoming a woman is what he has chosen for his attempt to stay relevant in the public eye post Kardashian is irrelevant.  It is a stunt, nothing more.

To call someone else's  gender identity a "stunt" and "fraud" is just plain out cruel.Your reasoning for misgendering Caitlyn Jenner is still transphobic. Your "problem" may be with Caitlyn Jenner and the Kardashian Klan, but the attitude and bigotry that you have  is something that many in the trans community have to face regularly. If you're problem was truly with publicity you wouldn't continue to use incorrect pronouns.No one is trying to make you change how you feel.You have the right to be a transphobic bigot if you choose to.

Victoria Elle wrote:

It's not about comfort, they are using it as an insult. 

You can't force someone to accept anything, but pointing out their intolerance is in no way unfair.

+1

ernst tischler wrote:
You refuse to hear that my problem is with Bruce Jenner, not transgenders in general.  The fact that becoming a woman is what he has chosen for his attempt to stay relevant in the public eye post Kardashian is irrelevant.  It is a stunt, nothing more.

ma'am, i don't follow how this person's choices and/or motives are your problem

ernst tischler wrote:

Is this not being billed as the liberating moment for Bruce Jenner?  If this is about being honest with the world about who he is, then why hide the physique, why hide the hands?  He is 65 years old, why does he make himself up to be 40-ish? 

Is this really about being who is really is?

...or is it about staying in the spotlight?

Madonna looks great for her being in her 50's to me, but I would not show her hands because those are not her best features.  In doing portraits for many decades, I look to show people in the most flattering light.  As for the portraits of Caitlyn, perhaps Annie felt that her lighting & pose worked best in flattering Caitlyn?

KungPaoChic wrote:
I think there are all different levels of courage. It is hard to be different.

Look at the level of intolerance in this very thread.

Coming out is a huge thing for most people.

I am not a fan in general of the reality tv subculture and a lot of it smacks of attention whoring to me but I think coming out has to be really scary.

So it isn't the same kind of courage as charging into battle but putting yourself out there publicly, knowing that society, your family and loved ones can completely tear you down -- that can't be an easy thing.

I don't understand why people get so upset about other people's sexuality or gender identification.

They are human beings like anyone else.

WORD!  Yes, just look at the level of intolerance in this thread!