Photographer
J-PhotoArt
Posts: 1133
San Francisco, California, US
CHAD ALAN wrote:
I know almost nothing about transgendered people or the community, but I do know that I'll try to respect them and their wishes as much as possible.
Live and let live. Now that is an Adult and Intelligent approach!
Photographer
Brian Diaz
Posts: 65617
Danbury, Connecticut, US
CHAD ALAN wrote:
I know almost nothing about transgendered people or the community, but I do know that I'll try to respect them and their wishes as much as possible.
Live and let live. Yep. Refusing to call someone by her chosen name is not "live and let live." It's more "I live and you act exactly how I want you to act, you freakshow,"
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45198
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Victoria Elle wrote:
This is being billed as a liberating moment for Caitlyn Jenner. That is what she has asked to be called; that is who she is. Continually referring to her with male pronouns, and by her pre-transition name is an ugly, insulting, and disrespectful to her and to the entire transgender community.
Most women strive to present themselves as though they are 35. She is no different from any other woman in this aspect.
Societally accepted feminine presentation is not natural, even for cisgender women. It is entirely performative, and we must be taught it and rehearse to achieve it our entire lives. Laverne Cox is more comfortable in her femininity because she has been conforming to it for years. Some women never become comfortable with it, especially on camera, and there is nothing wrong with that. It seems that it is indeed "a mans World" ... as it seems like the number of men are more often offended by transgenders than women. Men are more likely to be violent towards women than the other way around. For the most part, men make more money for doing the same jobs than women. I'm a white male who has had opportunity to learn what white male privilege is about! For various reasons I wont go into how I became educated at this time, it seems we have many judgmental people here who might not "get it!" However, anyone who disrespects other people due to their ethnicity, sexual orientation, perceived gender, political or religious affiliations, age, and physical appearance in general ... that person is no friend of mine. Anyone who knows me and my family background will understand why.
With that said, I want those who have been so critical of the transformation that the former Bruce Jenner has made to become Caitlyn Jenner ... to consider this; As biased and strongly polarized as the general public is towards women, with white males seemingly having the upper hand on so much regarding what is considered successful, why would a white male want to give up his 'white male" privilege to the disdain and hatred of so many who do not tolerate transgenders? The lack of respect in refusing to refer to Caitlyn Jenner in the feminine gender, and the accusations of her going through such a transformation for "attention" is just an example of the hatred that Caitlyn Jenner now endures. Why would any person who has been born with white male privilege, and is a former Olympic winner of gold medals whose records still stand ... "why" would this person give up such public respect and male privilege to go through the pain and suffering to be transformed into a female? It must have been really important for that person to do so, all things considered.
I am comfortable in my own skin as a male, and I love women. There is no way I can imagine a man, such as Bruce Jenner was, going through the transformation for "attention" or "fortune." The former Bruce Jenner already had the fame and fortune. It would be one hell of a sacrifice if that was what it was for.
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45198
San Juan Bautista, California, US
CHAD ALAN wrote:
I know almost nothing about transgendered people or the community, but I do know that I'll try to respect them and their wishes as much as possible.
Live and let live. That very well could be why we are friends. I know you are a tolerant, laid back dude like myself. 
Photographer
ChadAlan
Posts: 4254
Los Angeles, California, US
CHAD ALAN wrote:
I know almost nothing about transgendered people or the community, but I do know that I'll try to respect them and their wishes as much as possible.
Live and let live. Brian Diaz wrote:
Yep. Refusing to call someone by her chosen name is not "live and let live." It's more "I live and you act exactly how I want you to act, you freakshow," I don't claim to be perfect, and truthfully, I can't say I'm 100% comfortable yet with someone being transgendered. As a male, it is hard to imagine. I haven't been exposed to it on a personal level and haven't had any heart-to-heart discussions with anyone. But I still try to be respectful.
A friend of mine just posted this on her Instagram and I think it's fitting.
"No matter how educated, talented, rich, or cool you believe you are,
how you treat people tells all"
Photographer
ChadAlan
Posts: 4254
Los Angeles, California, US
Patrick Walberg wrote:
That very well could be why we are friends. I know you are a tolerant, laid back dude like myself. Yes we are!
Although I initially read that as, "...a tolerant, black dude like myself." lol.
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45198
San Juan Bautista, California, US
CHAD ALAN wrote:
Yes we are!
Although I initially read that as, "...a tolerant, black dude like myself." lol. You don't know how many times I've felt like I'm a black dude! As many times as I've been at nightclubs, concerts, and festivals where far more blacks were in attendance ... being an event & entertainment photographer over the decades, I've been the "minority" at quite a few venues. 
There is only one race, and that is the human race. Black or white, Asian or Hispanic ... we are all one people!
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 21617
New York, New York, US
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 21617
New York, New York, US
r T p wrote:
yes, sir .. What is the reaction you're trying to get? I don't have a cock, do you?
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 21617
New York, New York, US
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 21617
New York, New York, US
CHAD ALAN wrote:
Yes we are!
Although I initially read that as, "...a tolerant, black dude like myself." lol. Patrick is not a black dude?
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45198
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Jules NYC wrote:
Patrick is not a black dude?
I get confused sometimes. You see ... I'm color blind!
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 21617
New York, New York, US
Photographer
r T p
Posts: 3511
Los Angeles, California, US
r T p wrote:
yes, sir .. Jules NYC wrote:
What is the reaction you're trying to get?
I don't have a cock, do you? don't get cocky, sir ...
addressing you as such is what's comfortable for me
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 21617
New York, New York, US
r T p wrote:
don't get cocky, sir ...
addressing you as such is what's comfortable for me That's cool with me.
I can be cocky sometimes, I will work on that.
If you read the thread, I am being objective to both sides.
I still don't think it is fair for a person not on board with Caitlyn's gender change (with penis still intact) to address her as such.
Photographer
KungPaoChic
Posts: 4221
West Palm Beach, Florida, US
ernst tischler wrote:
I'm sorry, but Bruce has not called me and asked me not to call him Bruce.
Did you really read what you wrote here?
"It is transphobic to believe a transgender person is transitioning for attention NO MATTER WHO THEY ARE."
So what if that person really is transitioning for attention?
What is the big word name for when you call someone a big word name because they simply disagree with you? I feel really sorry for you if you think that Jenner transitioned " for attention."
IMO it says more about you projecting your insecurities on someone else.
Why do you even care what she would like to be called? Who is she hurting?
Is it so hard to respect someone's wishes to refer to someone by the name and gender that they identify with?
Calling someone a freak show is nothing less than insulting, demeaning and cruel but if that is the image that a one wants to project about themselves one shouldn't be surprised when others refer them as intolerant and small minded.
Model
Michelle Genevieve
Posts: 1140
Gaithersburg, Maryland, US
Jules NYC wrote:
I still don't think it is fair for a person not on board with Caitlyn's gender change (with penis still intact) to address her as such. How is this an issue of fairness? How does this affect you and create an unfair condition for you?
Why is presence or absence of original plumbing a factor? Since when is a woman merely a life support system for a vagina? Or are you saying that identity is inextricably linked to body configuration? (I suppose that would make a veteran who loses a limb in combat less of a man or woman?)
Whether you can accept someone's gender transition is your business, but I don't understand how that entitles you to define their identity or validate their name.
Photographer
KungPaoChic
Posts: 4221
West Palm Beach, Florida, US
Jules NYC wrote:
That's cool with me.
I can be cocky sometimes, I will work on that.
If you read the thread, I am being objective to both sides.
I still don't think it is fair for a person not on board with Caitlyn's gender change (with penis still intact) to address her as such. Did you really not understand why he addressed you as sir?
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 21617
New York, New York, US
Michelle Genevieve wrote:
How is this an issue of fairness? How does this affect you and create an unfair condition for you?
Why is presence or absence of original plumbing a factor? Since when is a woman merely a life support system for a vagina? Or are you saying that identity is inextricably linked to body configuration? (I suppose that would make a veteran who loses a limb in combat less of a man or woman?)
Whether you can accept someone's gender transition is your business, but I don't understand how that entitles you to define their identity or validate their name. It's not my issue.
Re-read.
I call Caitlyn, Caitlyn.
I'm on board with Caitlyn's wishes to be called such and address as 'she'.
In fact, I've supported her in this entire thread.
AGAIN, I am looking at the other side, you know, the side I don't personally agree with.
I can do that you know.
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 21617
New York, New York, US
KungPaoChic wrote:
Did you really not understand why he addressed you as sir? I do, just it was silly the way he did it, so I was being silly too.
I have no issue calling Caitlyn 'she', 'her'.
Photographer
KungPaoChic
Posts: 4221
West Palm Beach, Florida, US
Jules NYC wrote:
I do, just it was silly the way he did it, so I was being silly too. Oh yeah it wasn't funny or cllever.
Though I did understand why he called you sir.
That made sense to me.
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 21617
New York, New York, US
KungPaoChic wrote:
Oh yeah it wasn't funny. Exactly.
Now you understand.
What you don't understand is why I wrote what I did.
Tiresome point and making it to the wrong person.
Same reason he used 'Ma'am' in another retort.
Photographer
KungPaoChic
Posts: 4221
West Palm Beach, Florida, US
Jules NYC wrote:
Exactly.
Now you understand.
What you don't understand is why I wrote what I did.
Tiresome point and making it to the wrong person. I thought he had a point.
I thought your response was just lame.
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 21617
New York, New York, US
KungPaoChic wrote:
I thought he had a point.
I thought your response was just lame. I thought his response was equally as lame.
Photographer
KungPaoChic
Posts: 4221
West Palm Beach, Florida, US
Brian Diaz wrote:
Yep. Refusing to call someone by her chosen name is not "live and let live." It's more "I live and you act exactly how I want you to act, you freakshow," Thank you!
Photographer
r T p
Posts: 3511
Los Angeles, California, US
Jules NYC wrote:
I still don't think it is fair for a person not on board with Caitlyn's gender change (with penis still intact) to address her as such. what does being "on board" with gender change have to do with just simply being respectful enough towards another human being (who's brought you no harm) and address them as they wish/prefer to be addressed, despite the particulars between their legs?
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 21617
New York, New York, US
r T p wrote:
what does being "on board" with gender change have to do with just simply being respectful enough towards another human being (who's brought you no harm) and address them as they wish/prefer to be addressed, despite the particulars between their legs? What is pretty ridiculous is that I agree with your position.
What I don't agree with is force-feeding someone/anyone who at heart doesn't believe in the reassignment.
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 21617
New York, New York, US
Photographer
KungPaoChic
Posts: 4221
West Palm Beach, Florida, US
Jules NYC wrote:
Just sayin'
Caitlyn Jenner’s mom is “very happy” for the former Olympian — but she’s not going to stop calling her Bruce.
I’m very happy for him — or her.
http://pagesix.com/2015/06/02/caitlyn-j … her-bruce/ Are you his mom?
Just sayin'
Apples and oranges.
If you read the entire article instead of taking a quote out of context you can see the mother is very understanding especially when you consider her age.
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 21617
New York, New York, US
KungPaoChic wrote:
Are you his mom?
Just sayin'
Apples and oranges. I don't find this funny or clever either.
I am obviously not his mother.
I posted this because if his own mother made it clear that she will call "him or her" Bruce, is she disrespectful or does she have the 'right' to call her what she wishes?
She, Caitlyn, stated she wants to be addressed as Caitlyn.
Why can't his mother respect that?
I DID read the article; you are missing my point.
There are some people that don't feel comfortable calling her as 'she'.
Some are just not comfortable, others insulting.
Not everyone has a malicious intent that is not comfortable with 'she'.
If his own mother means no harm, why the backlash for anyone else who is not being malicious?
Photographer
KungPaoChic
Posts: 4221
West Palm Beach, Florida, US
Jules NYC wrote:
I don't find this funny or clever either.
I am obviously not his mother.
I posted this because if his own mother made it clear that she will call "him or her" Bruce, is she disrespectful or does she have the 'right' to call her what she wishes?
She, Caitlyn, stated she wants to be addressed as Caitlyn.
Why can't his mother respect that?
I DID read the article; you are missing my point.
There are some people that don't feel comfortable calling her as 'she'.
Some are just not comfortable, others insulting.
Not everyone has a malicious intent that is not comfortable with 'she'.
If his own mother means no harm, why the backlash for anyone else who is not being malicious? I was not intending to be funny. I was asking -- are you his mother? Because if you are not you are not in the same position as she is.
I think if you read the article in its entirety, she and her husband named Jenner ( as most parents do) has gone through life addressing Jenner as Bruce and would be difficult to change. She is also 89 years old.
I bet in time she will make the effort to call Jenner as she requests if she really wants to respect her wishes, but as a mother that kind of has a unique perspective and privilege that you would have to be a parent to understand.
But if you refer to someone as a freak show and by choice are in fact demeaning them by calling them by another name or gender than they choose to identify with, you are insulting them by choice.
If you don't understand the difference, I don't know what to tell you.
Photographer
r T p
Posts: 3511
Los Angeles, California, US
r T p wrote:
what does being "on board" with gender change have to do with just simply being respectful enough towards another human being (who's brought you no harm) and address them as they wish/prefer to be addressed, despite the particulars between their legs? Jules NYC wrote:
What I don't agree with is force-feeding someone/anyone who at heart doesn't believe in the reassignment. IOW.. they (a stranger) must first adhere to *your specific* code of conduct requirements (that, otherwise, have no direct affect on you and your well-being) before you extend them the basic human courtesy of addressing them as they wish/prefer to be addressed
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 21617
New York, New York, US
KungPaoChic wrote:
I was not intending to be funny. I was asking -- are you his mother? Because if you are not you are not in the same position as she is.
I think if you read the article in its entirety, she and her husband named Jenner ( as most parents do) has gone through life addressing Jenner as Bruce and would be difficult to change. She is also 89 years old.
I bet in time she will make the effort to call Jenner as she requests if she really wants to respect her wishes, but as a mother that kind of has a unique perspective and privilege that you would have to be a parent to understand.
But if you refer to someone as a freak show and by choice are in fact demeaning them by calling them by another name or gender than they choose to identify with, you are insulting them by choice.
If you don't understand the difference, I don't know what to tell you. I did read the entire article and what you are not comprehending is that I don't take issue with calling her a 'she' nor did I say anything negative.
I don't know what you were trying to be.
Maybe I should have used another word to describe an earlier post than 'silly' but it is not in my nature to be mean.
Family can have 'unique' privileges to you but I come from a place of equal respect.
I am not supporting anyone calling her a freak show yet I appreciate their right to express that voice/opinion.
Read the entire thread again.
You are accusing me for lack of comprehension but sadly I think it is you that does not understand/comprehend.
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 21617
New York, New York, US
r T p wrote:
IOW.. they (a stranger) must first adhere to *your specific* code of conduct requirements (that, otherwise, have no direct affect on you and your well-being) before you extend them the basic human courtesy of addressing them as they wish/prefer to be addressed Why don't you address the people that have a problem with this.
I keep saying, I don't take issue with it.
Are people really that ignorant to see another point of view?
Wow
Read the thread again.
I am supporting C.
Photographer
ChadAlan
Posts: 4254
Los Angeles, California, US
Patrick Walberg wrote:
I get confused sometimes. You see ... I'm color blind! Jules NYC wrote:
Why am I thinking of this scene
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9GBuciv20A Haha, now that's how I envision Patrick. cigar and all
Makeup Artist
sweetcheekscouture
Posts: 465
West Palm Beach, Florida, US
Jules NYC wrote:
Why don't you address the people that have a problem with this.
I keep saying, I don't take issue with it.
Are people really that ignorant to see another point of view?
Wow
Read the thread again.
I am supporting C.
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 21617
New York, New York, US
CHAD ALAN wrote:
Haha, now that's how I envision Patrick. cigar and all !!
Photographer
NothingIsRealButTheGirl
Posts: 35726
Los Angeles, California, US
What Fun Productions wrote:
In the Hollywood world, the most courageous thing Caitlyn has done is come out as a Christian and a conservative. You can't call that courageous! There was no running toward gunfire or burning buildings involved!
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 21617
New York, New York, US
NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote:
You can't call that courageous! There was no running toward gunfire or burning buildings involved!
Photographer
KungPaoChic
Posts: 4221
West Palm Beach, Florida, US
NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote:
You can't call that courageous! There was no running toward gunfire or burning buildings involved! We can't all be Joan of Arc
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