Sean Armenta wrote:
we all need to get our start somewhere, someway, somehow, but there's a lot of misinformation going on about the way to go about this, which actually affects new photographers more than it affects the industry as a whole, or more established photographers.  there's a distinct difference between "building your book" and giving your work away. 

i've shot stuff for free to get my book started.  i have also made the mistake of giving my work away when i shouldn't have.  i hope this will help those starting out to understand the difference.



if the resulting images are going into everyone’s portfolio, then shoot it for free.

if everyone involved (you, model, makeup, hair, etc) are all at the same level (i.e. just starting out), shoot it for free.

if someone involved is at a level higher than you, is actually willing to work with you, and it’s a portfolio shoot, shoot it for free.  you will be benefitting greatly from this shoot by learning from someone who has been in the industry longer than you, whether that person is a model, makeup artist, etc...

if a clothing designer is willing to lend you clothes for your shoot in exchange for images for non-commercial use, shoot it for free.  at this point in your career, designer clothes are a godsend.

if you walk into a modeling agency like elite, ford, next, etc... and they actually like your work enough to send you home with a stack of comp cards, shoot those girls for free.



after all these free shoots, you should have a pretty decent portfolio.  so when do you get paid?



if the resulting images are going into everyone’s portfolio but yours, stop it, you need to get paid cause you are giving your work away.

if you are at a level much higher than everyone else involved, stop it, you need to get paid cause you are giving your work away. 

if a clothing designer is looking to shoot her lookbook, which is a catalog aimed at clothing buyers of stores which will be carrying her fall line next season, and she wants you to shoot it for free because it’s great exposure for you, stop it, you need to get paid cause you are giving your work away.  the truth of the matter is, your images on that lookbook is what is really selling her clothing, and her success is SOLELY dependent on your photography.

if the modeling agency that sent you home with a stack of cards is happy with the resulting images from those free test shoots, and is now calling you to test with their new girls and wants you to shoot if for free, stop it, you need to get paid cause you are giving your work away.  your work is now an asset to them and by calling you they are telling you that your images are getting their girls booked for thousand dollar jobs.  models need to invest in these images, because the return is much greater.

if your images will be used in ANY commercial sense and you are asked to shoot if for free, stop it, you need to get paid cause you are giving your work away.



NEVER compete on price or rate.  you need to value your own work before anyone else will deem your work valuable.  everything is visual.  photographs are responsible for selling everything.  everything.  when you look at a print ad, the first thing you see is a photograph.  not the text, not the catchphrase.  it’s the half naked girl sitting on the tire.  without photographs, companies would have a tough time selling products.  that’s why they are worth a thousand words. 

there is enough work out there for everyone.  it may not seem like it, but there really is.  those not getting any work are just going about it the wrong way, and/or are giving their work away constantly.

Your work kicks ass Sean....... It was a pleasure to view your work.

Brooks Ayola wrote:
Great post Sean... I wonder how many people will take the advice. :-)
What's your take on magazines that assign work, but don't pay? I'm not talking about submissions here.

working on that post, brooks

but in short, it depends on the magazine.  will i bitch about say, vogue not wanting to pay me?  hell no.  but something like anaheim fashion weekly -- yeah, they're paying.

Brooks Ayola wrote:
Just another note about working for free. In most cases (not all) once you work for free, you become "the free photographer." It's very hard, no matter what they tell you in the pitch, to start charging for something you used to give away for free.

I'm doing all right for myself, and besides the obvious testing, I've never worked for free. Tearsheets are over rated as work generators.

k....You're going to have to stop being so darn cool!

FitDistMedia wrote:
Nice, why can't all posts have this much substance!

When Sean starts a thread... He's serious! :-)

Brooks Ayola wrote:

When Sean starts a thread... He's serious! :-)

And both your work is so incredible I'm all ears and learned something already ;-)

Brooks Ayola wrote:
Just another note about working for free. In most cases (not all) once you work for free, you become "the free photographer." It's very hard, no matter what they tell you in the pitch, to start charging for something you used to give away for free.

I'm doing all right for myself, and besides the obvious testing, I've never worked for free. Tearsheets are over rated as work generators.

eesh, I think that is what I've become with the local music scene.







to Sean Armenta:
Thanks for that!

Sean Armenta wrote:
we all need to get our start somewhere, someway, somehow, but there's a lot of misinformation going on about ...............   when you look at a print ad, the first thing you see is a photograph.  not the text, not the catchphrase.  it’s the half naked girl sitting on the tire.  without photographs, companies would have a tough time selling products.  that’s why they are worth a thousand words. 

there is enough work out there for everyone.  it may not seem like it, but there really is.  those not getting any work are just going about it the wrong way, and/or are giving their work away constantly.

When Sean posts a thread, I read and read and read ....  thanks man.  You always give out great information!

VenusBlue imaging wrote:
when does the photographer pay the model and when does the model pay the photographer. like seriously where is that line crossed...? i've always thought and assumed it was; if a model contacts me expressing wish to work with me, then i want to charge, if i see a model i feel i want in my portfolio, then i should be willing to pay.... is that correct?

Alot of people around here follow that general "rule."  You can also ask for TFP if you are contacting a model, but obviously, they set the rules under which they will work, so if they say no...

Perfect Red Photography wrote:
Thank you for this thread.

My business ethic SUCKS and..well..I give my work away too much.

My business ethics are great.  I just have no business SENSE!

bang bang photo wrote:
Right now there's some guy who tries to make his living writing articles for photo magazines, and he's cussing you out for giving away writing for free here. . . .

Paul
(Used to write for magazines for a living)

PS - I get your general point -- but there will always be amateurs amongst us, and I'm not convinced that trying to turn them into charging professionals is ultimately the best approach to the problem.

thanks.  but of course, this isn't targeted towards amateurs or hobbyists

it's just that there have been so much "how do i get paid, when do i start charging" posts, i thought it might be helpful to those starting out there career in photography.

Christopher Ambler wrote:
95% of my work is trade. I shoot for free because I can. I turn down offers of paid work on a weekly basis.

Anyone who gets upset and thinks that I'm hurting their market has bigger problems.

You're not one of us. Not that my clients would shoot with you, but if you were next door to me and you were giving it away, I bet you would be hurting my market. I know you seem to be above all this, but I can't tell you how many times I've heard the line "Well, the other guy will shoot it for $1500." It's only a matter of time before that sentence changes to "the other guy will shoot it for free." How does that NOT hurt the photography market?

Brooks Ayola wrote:

You're not one of us. Not that my clients would shoot with you, but if you were next door to me and you were giving it away, I bet you would be hurting my market. I know you seem to be above all this, but I can't tell you how many times I've heard the line "Well, the other guy will shoot it for $1500." It's only a matter of time before that sentence changes to "the other guy will shoot it for free." How does that NOT hurt the photography market?

You seem to be under the impression that others in your field owe you some kind of price support. If others are willing to do, for free, what you do for pay, you either need to be that much better or, if you can't (or if they're genuinely that good), you need to find a new line of work.

I don't mean this to sound harsh, but that's the reality of a free market: some people are going to give it away, and sometimes it's going to affect your bottom line.