Conceptually Black wrote:

I've heard stories about aliens, bet you have too. Guess you believe in them.
I've heard stories about Big Foot, bet you have too. Guess you believe in him.
I've heard stories about photographers being rapists, bet you have too. Guess we all are.
Where do you draw the line between fiction and reality?

Obviously, not at the same place as you do.

If the act that I protect myself while shooting minors with model releases signed by their parents (which takes very little effort) means that I believe in aliens and Bigfoot, you just gave me the biggest laugh of the day.

The same people that claim to know "the facts", or have "industry standard" information don't seem to be able to provide links to documentation to support their "facts".

So, in the presence of the information that I have, and the opinions of those that I have consulted with, and those that I have asked, I will continue to protect myself in a way that I see fit.

I hope that answers your question.

RGK Photography wrote:

Image K wrote:
I took this shot of Kai Lansangan (mm# 773996) at Red Rock Canyon when she was 16...

Have you ever walked on a beach?

Doesn't even have to be the beach anymore. The malls have almost that much skin.

Image K wrote:

Obviously, not at the same place as you do.

If the act that I protect myself while shooting minors with model releases signed by their parents (which takes very little effort) means that I believe in aliens and Bigfoot, you just gave me the biggest laugh of the day.

The same people that claim to know "the facts", or have "industry standard" information don't seem to be able to provide links to documentation to support their "facts".

So, in the presence of the information that I have, and the opinions of those that I have consulted with, and those that I have asked, I will continue to protect myself in a way that I see fit.

I hope that answers your question.

And that's what it all comes down to. Individual choice. Honestly, there's really no need to argue this point. We each make our decisions based on what we want and our experience. Some will, some won't. Some require specific conditions to be met first. I don't blame anyone for any of that as long as they aren't doing anything inappropriate to the children. That's the bottom line.

Dove KT wrote:
Those that don't mind escorts parents.

Fixed that for you.

Carly Cherie wrote:
What photographers are willing to work with somebody that's 16

I work with them occasionly, I do some "senior" type portraits with kids all the time.

Photons 2 Pixels Images wrote:

Doesn't even have to be the beach anymore. The malls have almost that much skin.

Yes they do.  I've seen my daughters friends were less during "wholesome" sports events than they did to the beach.

Photons 2 Pixels Images wrote:
No, not difficult at all. I'm not sure where you go the idea I was having trouble understanding your point of view. If you had been arrested, then you'd have something to be concerned about. Police can be called on you for walking down the street if some nosey neighbor thinks you're up to no good. Are you going to stop going in public because of it?

People can sue for almost any reason anymore. Call the cops for any reason. Case in point, the girl that didn't get her chicken McNuggets called 911. I'm sure you've heard of that one. However, when the police are called they are required to at least check things out. Honestly, that lady that called the cops on you was at more risk of being cited by the police than you were.

And is my position really difficult to understand? Maybe it's the area I'm in. This is still small-town mentality around here. People are more open about things and more trusting. I'd be willing to bet that this issue is divided along lines related to that point. Nearer a bigger city I'd say you'd be more worried about those consequences and rightly so. I can understand your point and I'm not telling you that you are wrong to think that way. It's like smoking. It isn't against the law, but I won't do it. Ever. Others choose to and know the risks involved.

No, of course I’m not going to stop going in public, but neither am I going to leave myself vulnerable to charges of impropriety brought forth by some well meaning citizen who equates “Man With Camera” as “Child Predator.” 

Nobody has more respect for the Police than I do.  They have an extremely difficult job to do, regardless of their locale.  I wouldn’t have their job, frankly, for all that I appreciate their efforts.  That doesn’t mean I enjoy being on the receiving end of their attention, however.

A properly executed shoot agreement & the Parent’s/Guardian’s presence at the shoot will neatly nip in the bud any charges of impropriety then & there.  Having other adults present in place of the Parent/Guardian might serve as well, but then again, it may also leave those adults open to being charged & arrested...

Why settle for second best?

Beauty by Divine wrote:
I don't mind, as long as a parent or guardian is present during the shoot.

I agree. I set up the shoot through the parents and they must be present during the shoot and sign a release. As soon as a model says her parents are OK with modeling and there is no need for me to speak with them or have them present during a shoot usually means to me that the parents don't know about the modeling or don't approve. I don't think it would be wise for anyone to shoot with an emancipated minor, since they would have insufficient life experience to make good choices with their modeling. Sooner or later they will work with photographers hounding them to push their limits and before you know it...trouble.

By the way...this is not the portfolio I would contact a minor model with for fashion...I just happened to be online with it when I stumbled across this thread.

David Scott wrote:

I'm lost.

I don't see a problem.

I don't think you'll have a problem shooting minors as long you're just shooting for your portfolio or the model's port, but check with your local state laws if unsure. I think as long you'll not going to use it in a ad, magazine, etc, and if the photos aren't deem to exploitative, you should be fine .  But play it safe, always have someone else with you while you are shooting minors. It only takes 16 year old to say something that you did something unprofessional.

PTPhotoUT wrote:
Last year a Utah based photographer shot a 17 year old, 2 weeks before her 18th birthday. Of the hundreds of pics taken, less than a dozen, at the models request, had implied nudity. None even hinted of being sexually sugestive. A week later, the photographer's home and studio were raided. They confiscated his computer, back up drives, CD's, DVD's, ALL of his negatives, memory cards, cell phones with picture capabilities, etc. No charges were ever filed, the evidence is not being returned as the case is still open.

Is it worth it?

link to facts please.

PTPhotoUT wrote:
Last year a Utah based photographer shot a 17 year old, 2 weeks before her 18th birthday. Of the hundreds of pics taken, less than a dozen, at the models request, had implied nudity. None even hinted of being sexually sugestive. A week later, the photographer's home and studio were raided. They confiscated his computer, back up drives, CD's, DVD's, ALL of his negatives, memory cards, cell phones with picture capabilities, etc. No charges were ever filed, the evidence is not being returned as the case is still open.

Is it worth it?

Well that's Utah for ya! 

By the way, is this just a rumor you heard or do you have links?

I agree with the above post ... let's have the "beef" on this!

Image K wrote:
Since you are a minor, there has to be someone that can sign for you, since you are too young to enter into a binding contract.

Who do you have that signs for you?

Hello Emancipated she is legally an adult she can sign for herself.

OP
I work with 16 year olds. I'm actually looking for 14yrs. old tall and thin models for my fashion work.

KillerShotz Photography wrote:

Hello Emancipated she is legally an adult she can sign for herself.

OP
I work with 16 year olds. I'm actually looking for 14yrs. old tall and thin models for my fashion work.

Yup...my bad.

I missed that.

PTPhotoUT wrote:
Last year a Utah based photographer shot a 17 year old, 2 weeks before her 18th birthday. Of the hundreds of pics taken, less than a dozen, at the models request, had implied nudity. None even hinted of being sexually sugestive. A week later, the photographer's home and studio were raided. They confiscated his computer, back up drives, CD's, DVD's, ALL of his negatives, memory cards, cell phones with picture capabilities, etc. No charges were ever filed, the evidence is not being returned as the case is still open.

Is it worth it?

I just searched for that and couldn't find it?  hmmm.


Link?

Dove KT wrote:
Those that don't mind escorts.

I don't allow escorts and I (rarely) work with 15-17 year olds.  I just require a parent.  I don't consider them "escorts."

dave wright glam wrote:
I wouldn't feel comfortable shooting something like that with a 16 year old girl.

why would you not feel comfortable shooting this?  go to any amusement park and you see this, go to any mall, and you see this, and of course, go to the beach and you see this or less.. what is the problem?

Utah?  please post a link to back up your fear mongering..

I have no problem shooting a 16yrold or under 18 for that matter without parents.  i have done that many times.  i had parents sign releases and not show up to escort.  I guess if you as the photog feel you need one before you shoot, i suggest you not open up a studio and do senior portraits, parents will be pissed you require them to show up for such a basic shoot.

DKLEE STUDIO wrote:

why would you not feel comfortable shooting this?  go to any amusement park and you see this, go to any mall, and you see this, and of course, go to the beach and you see this or less.. what is the problem?

Utah?  please post a link to back up your fear mongering..

I have no problem shooting a 16yrold or under 18 for that matter without parents.  i have done that many times.  i had parents sign releases and not show up to escort.  I guess if you as the photog feel you need one before you shoot, i suggest you not open up a studio and do senior portraits, parents will be pissed you require them to show up for such a basic shoot.

QFT!  Yours should be the final word on this  ...

Dove KT wrote:
Those that don't mind escorts.

Those who don't mind escorts.
We're people. Not things.

Carly Cherie wrote:
What photographers are willing to work with somebody that's 16

Two 17 year olds, first was the daughter of a rock musician who had is latest album produced with us and he was there and signed the release (product photography).

The second was also product photography and was done on our own, she now works for me at a small advertisng company I started a few years ago and her daughter calles me "Uncle Mowis."     

Boring stuff..........

Carly Cherie wrote:
What photographers are willing to work with somebody that's 16

Carly,

Most professional photographers, those with an established and proven clientelle and an unquestioned business need, will work with young models.   Modeling starts very young, it has a distinct marketing demographic, and therefore will have photographers who will test for fashion and commercial work both.

I never had a problem working with younger models when I shot professionally.   I simply requested a parent be present and sign the required releases prior to the shoot.

I shoot as a hobby now, and don't work with anyone under 18, and really prefer the over 21 crowd.   The reason is simple - it is difficult to defend against what would be a perfectly true, and perfectly misleading, statement of "he is shooting underage girls for a hobby."    The connotations are not good there.

That said, I have still worked with on or two young models recently at the request of their parents, who are longtime friends.   And that was the key.

And there are even hobbyists who will work with young models.   But the uncertainty there may not be worth the risk - your call.

So my recommendation to you would be to check with the professional photographers in your area to see if any would like to test.   And post here, but be careful to do your homework before showing up for a shoot - and take an escort who knows the business and can tell you when the photographer is making a reasonable request, or is stepping over the line.   Too often a reasonable request seems pervy to those new to the business, and too often a pervy move gets missed until it is too late.   So get some guidance from someone a bit more experienced.

Richard Tallent wrote:
If you're obscenely tall and skinny and I'm having my annual flirtation with fashion photography, I will.

Otherwise I shoot nudes, so... not so much.

Regardless of age or height or interest in nude work, the first hard lesson of being a model or photographer is to accept rejection.

Ask, ask, ask, and if 90% of the photographers run away because they have vision of news cameras and Chris Hansen dancing in their head, work with the other 10%.

Younger photographers are probably more likely to work with you. If a nearby school photography class, volunteer to model for the students. There's a high school photography class around here that produces work that puts most of MM to shame, so MM isn't the only vehicle.

Hey, midget.  There's no such thing as being obscenely tall.    There's just SHORT- like you, and normal/average- like me. 

Carly Cherie wrote:
What photographers are willing to work with somebody that's 16

As long as a patrent attends the shoot. (No Nudes for anyone under 18)

Carly Cherie wrote:
What photographers are willing to work with somebody that's 16

Sorry...not me. Not in the USA...only overseas! My friend is still in jail!!

Carly Cherie wrote:
What photographers are willing to work with somebody that's 16

I will shoot with minors as long as the proper measures are taken....

Parent/legal guardian must be present at the meeting and shoot and approve of all images prior to downloading to computer.

Parent/Guardian must agree and sign all paperwork involved with shoot.

And in some cases, typically involving agencies, a social worker and or tutor may be requested to be present as well.

Carly Cherie wrote:
What photographers are willing to work with somebody that's 16

I tested with a 13 year old agency model last week.  She was beautiful and sexy!

Dove KT wrote:
Those that don't mind escorts.

For the 12 trillionth time - Parents are NOT "escorts"!

Photons 2 Pixels Images wrote:
Kids walk in off the street all the time for senior portraits when they have not yet reached the age of majority. The photographer takes their money, takes their photos, gets them developed, and hands them over when the kid comes back to pick them up. And all with no parent signature involved. And in a lot of cases, no parent is present. It's no different than a kid walking into a store to buy some snacks and drinks. Is the clerk or store owner going to get arrested and thrown in jail if the parents didn't want the child to have the snack and drink? No. What about haircuts? Kids go by themselves all the time for haircuts. How is that different?

Here is how it's different...
Under the contract laws of the U.S. states, and I believe also Canada and the U.K., the general rule is that minors do not have the capacity to enter into contracts (purchases).  The exception to the rule is necessities of life.  As much as we photographers would like to think of our images as necessities, a court would probably not agree.  A parent could ask for their child's money back on a photographic purchase.  They could not ask for their money back on food or haircuts.  So that's how it's different.

Does it happen often?  No.  Could it happen?  Yes.  Let the seller beware.

Gallery By Hal wrote:

Gallery By Hal wrote:
That's precisely one of the points we've been making...
Lots of us are willing to work with the OP (assuming she were in our neighborhood) but we aren't willing to do so without a parent or legal guardian present...

...or when you're shooting in your private studio with a nosy neighbor who saw a sweet young thing enter your "studio" and then calls the cops down on you;

...or when you're shooting on location - as I was when the police interrogated me when I was shooting landscapes 1/2 block from a playground.

A studio in a mall is a different situation from my own.  I don't own a studio.  I shoot at the model's location or in public venues, unless we decide to rent studio time somewhere...  Nor do I have staff - I'm the whole show. 

After my close encounter with "John Law" while shooting landscapes, I simply will not risk being accused of any impropriety with a minor, hence the steps I take to protect myself. 

A signed contract/agreement setting forth the session requirements and, if the model is a minor, a requirement that a parent or legal guardian be present for both the child's protection & my own...

Is my position really that difficult to understand?

Paranoid much?

J C ModeFotografie wrote:

Carly Cherie wrote:
What photographers are willing to work with somebody that's 16

I tested with a 13 year old agency model last week.  She was beautiful and sexy!


For the 12 trillionth time - Parents are NOT "escorts"!

A sexy 13 yr old?

Carly Cherie wrote:
I don't know what there is t sign

Iam not trying to be nasty, but that is exactly WHY you need someone to sign until you understand the reasons for it.