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Model
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,610
Los Angeles, California, US


Art of the nude wrote:

If a model wants to be paid even though there is no buyer / client, and no need for the images for portfolio purposes, then the photographer is taking a business risk that they can recover the cost of the model, the team (if it applies), the studio and so forth.  When the economy is good, that risk is both smaller and easier to absorb.  For many photographers, it's just not practical right now.  To do the same shoot and agree to split any revenue / profit may be much easier to justify.  But it tends to frequently be dismissed as unreasonable.

That's not true all the time of course, most of the work I do is on that basis; but I've seen the attitude more than once in this thread, and I think it's unfortunate.

I have nothing to do with whether or not a photographer has an intended use for the images, or whether or not their intended use pans out.

When paid, I agree to help produce powerful and amazing images.  I promise to do a fantastic job on my end.

If the photographer really sucks at matters of business and marketing, perhaps they need a new "business".  Or, need to realize that perhaps this is only a hobby, at best.

I do understand what you're saying; just thought I'd change the perspective.

Sep 14 09 06:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Poses
Posts: 8,139
Kansas City, Missouri, US


Art of the nude wrote:
If a model wants to be paid even though there is no buyer / client, and no need for the images for portfolio purposes, then the photographer is taking a business risk that they can recover the cost of the model, the team (if it applies), the studio and so forth.  When the economy is good, that risk is both smaller and easier to absorb.  For many photographers, it's just not practical right now.  To do the same shoot and agree to split any revenue / profit may be much easier to justify.  But it tends to frequently be dismissed as unreasonable.

That's not true all the time of course, most of the work I do is on that basis; but I've seen the attitude more than once in this thread, and I think it's unfortunate.

Art is not something, to the best of my knowledge, that is usually monetarily profitable.  Shandra and I are both art models.

I shoot film photography.  My goal is a beautiful image, not profit.  Like most of us do with hobbies, I put time and money into it because I love it and the process/result is its own reward.  I know that the money I spend on film and chemicals and such will never be financially recovered, but the images are, personally, to me, of much greater value than the money I spent.  I buy supplies when I can afford it and barter my time for them, too.  I've never gotten pissed at my rolls of Tri-X for making me poorer instead of richer.

Sep 14 09 06:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Model Sarah
Posts: 38,856
Columbus, Ohio, US


Art of the nude wrote:
If a model wants to be paid even though there is no buyer / client, and no need for the images for portfolio purposes, then the photographer is taking a business risk that they can recover the cost of the model, the team (if it applies), the studio and so forth.  When the economy is good, that risk is both smaller and easier to absorb.  For many photographers, it's just not practical right now.  To do the same shoot and agree to split any revenue / profit may be much easier to justify.  But it tends to frequently be dismissed as unreasonable.

That's not true all the time of course, most of the work I do is on that basis; but I've seen the attitude more than once in this thread, and I think it's unfortunate.
Shandra Stark wrote:
I have nothing to do with whether or not a photographer has an intended use for the images, or whether or not their intended use pans out.

When paid, I agree to help produce powerful and amazing images.  I promise to do a fantastic job on my end.

If the photographer really sucks at matters of business and marketing, perhaps they need a new "business".  Or, need to realize that perhaps this is only a hobby, at best.

I do understand what you're saying; just thought I'd change the perspective.

Now Mike, I even told you this when you hired me. I said hiring a professional model is completely different than hiring an amateur. You know that for a fact and have vocally stated that in the forums. Complaining about costs well....

Art, generally speaking, isn't isnt profitable at least financially.  It's usually a hobby and certain hobbies cost more than others. Like Shandra is saying, if you arent good at business with this, then perhaps you need a new hobby.

This is my living. I love what I do and I do it because i'm an artist. I am also a photographer and realize shooting film costs money. You'll never hear me bitching about the cost of film or developer.

Sep 14 09 07:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Poses
Posts: 8,139
Kansas City, Missouri, US


Model Sarah wrote:
This is my living. I love what I do and I do it because i'm an artist. I am also a photographer and realize shooting film costs money. You'll never hear me bitching about the cost of film or developer.

FUCK YOU, TMAX 3200!  WHY DID I PURCHASE YOU!?  I'LL NEVER GET THAT MONEY BACK, YOU STUPID HIGH SPEED FILM!  ALL I HAVE NOW IS WORTHLESS CRAP LIKE THIS:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2590/3906321850_50af9211d0.jpg

Sep 14 09 07:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MLRPhoto
Posts: 5,753
Olivet, Michigan, US


Art of the nude wrote:
If a model wants to be paid even though there is no buyer / client, and no need for the images for portfolio purposes, then the photographer is taking a business risk that they can recover the cost of the model, the team (if it applies), the studio and so forth.  When the economy is good, that risk is both smaller and easier to absorb.  For many photographers, it's just not practical right now.  To do the same shoot and agree to split any revenue / profit may be much easier to justify.  But it tends to frequently be dismissed as unreasonable.

That's not true all the time of course, most of the work I do is on that basis; but I've seen the attitude more than once in this thread, and I think it's unfortunate.
Shandra Stark wrote:
I have nothing to do with whether or not a photographer has an intended use for the images, or whether or not their intended use pans out.

When paid, I agree to help produce powerful and amazing images.  I promise to do a fantastic job on my end.

If the photographer really sucks at matters of business and marketing, perhaps they need a new "business".  Or, need to realize that perhaps this is only a hobby, at best.

I do understand what you're saying; just thought I'd change the perspective.
Model Sarah wrote:
Now Mike, I even told you this when you hired me. I said hiring a professional model is completely different than hiring an amateur. You know that for a fact and have vocally stated that in the forums. Complaining about costs well....

Art, generally speaking, isn't isnt profitable at least financially.  It's usually a hobby and certain hobbies cost more than others. Like Shandra is saying, if you arent good at business with this, then perhaps you need a new hobby.

This is my living. I love what I do and I do it because i'm an artist. I am also a photographer and realize shooting film costs money. You'll never hear me bitching about the cost of film or developer.

I'm not complaining about costs; and you are an example of the many cases where it was well worth it for me to pay.  I don't argue that models shouldn't be paid, now or ever.  Hiring you was one of the most expensive things I've done in photography, and one of the wisest.

My point, which I tried to be clear about, is that at times it might well be worthwhile for a model, professional or otherwise, to consider compensation arrangements other than exclusively cash at the time of the shoot.  If a model is getting $100+ an hour for 50 hours a week; well, more power to them.  If, however, there aren't as many clients as desired, it seems very reasonable to think that doing a shoot for potential income is more productive than sitting at home (or wherever they might be). 

Whether professional, hobbyist, or somewhere in between, the current economy means many photographers have had to make major changes in how they do things; I'm merely offering the idea that there may be occasions where the same is true for models.  I thought the theme of the thread was creativity in reaching one's goals.  The same theme of creativity would apply to a photographer potentially offering arrangements other than what they might desire if the right opportunity occurred.

Sep 15 09 05:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Skydancer Photos
Posts: 21,905
Santa Cruz, California, US


Nice post Shandra.

smile
Sep 15 09 05:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,610
Los Angeles, California, US


bump.
Sep 25 09 02:02 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
TomFRohwer
Posts: 610
Hamburg, Hamburg, Germany


@Shandra Stark:
Top 1-5

Full ack ... but ... what disturbs me a little bit - should not be all of that obvious and self-evident?

Ok - sometimes it may be helpful to speak out even the most natural points.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
I think you missed the most important tip:  Learn How To Negotiate! 
(...)

Full ack - but...

Looknsee Photography wrote:
Be prepared to identify the problems with the offer/product/service:  "Yes, I like that used car, but those tires look really old & worn".  If you find a little fault, you might be able to talk the price down a bit.

Models are no used cars...

And it would not be such a good idea to support negotiations by telling a model something about her (or his) physical disadvantages.

"Hey, you should be satisfied with X $/hour - think of that hint of cellulite you have to struggle with..." is clearly not the way to motivate a model and get gorgeous pictures... ;-)

("Hey, I really want to shoot with you but your disadvantage is living 500 miles northwest of nowhere. So we would have to find a deal..." may work.)

At least it is quite simple... (as always)

1. There is a point where you start to subsidize the photographer (or the model). You have to ask yourself: am I able to do that? And if you are able: am I willing to do so?

2. "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush." (Or as the Germans say: "The sparrow in your hand is better than the pigeon on the roof"...)

As long as you have no better alternative $30/hour you get paid are much more worth than $100/hour you won't get paid. Truism.

As long as we are into a recession prices fall. Prices for models (and photographers) too. But how much you get paid assembling BigMacs at McDonald's?

Sep 28 09 03:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
XposurePhoto
Posts: 889
Houston, Texas, US


Kymberly Jane wrote:
i have yet to install a credit card slide apparatus into my thigh

Get a Paypal Business account and acept credit cards... easy fix and less painfull and will give them frequent flyer miles  smile

XP

Oct 02 09 03:52 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
XposurePhoto
Posts: 889
Houston, Texas, US


SHANDRA!!!! Grate topic...on point... THANKS!!!

Just wanted to add... this goes both ways... applied to the one asking for the other's services

I have seen many times when Models claims that they have no $$$... but yet, they show up in new Beemers and lexus.... not to mention they go eat Sushi after and get drunk ($150.00 + tag), and just came from vacation in Maui and have the pics of the luxury life... yet, with out asking for rates or offering trades they ask for a TFP for Their portfolio... it maysound extreme...but I seen it happend.

So, I guess the word to learn is "R E S P E C T" people's businesses... if you go ithe $$$ why not pay...you will help the economy and help the art comunity stay alive! if a trade is equally reasonable, then great! but don't get out of shape because a model don't want to shoot with you for free just because you want to shoot her and vice versa... a Photograper will not shoot you TFP but shot your frien TPF... Life goes on and every situation and negotiation is diferent.

I made it to Cali this year because of a gat model who I shot several times gave me a buddy pass in exchange for extra images from a past shoot... it worked out for the both... Now I need to make it to Boston, so I posted in Boston and Houston just incase someone can give me another tcket or Hotel stay, transportation, etc. wink if it doesent happen, life will go on, I just won't make it to the Wedding of my friend lol but bartering can always help in certain situations as long it is something beneficial for both parties!

Thanks again for a great Topic.. now... I will go to sleep....99 ALL!

XP
Oct 02 09 04:11 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Angele Fonce
Posts: 5,157
Dayton, Ohio, US


Great Job on the thread!!!
Oct 02 09 06:51 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
XposurePhoto
Posts: 889
Houston, Texas, US


Essence of Cassie wrote:
Perhaps services too... lately I have been doing some model for massage (with certified therapists with a real office, of course). To me that is gold!

I have done that as well with some models, the only problem is... they Love the Massage and the pics... and want to keep the pics as well... so I had to explain that the payment was the massage per our agreement lol and if my customers ended up using the image for an add then they would het a "Tear Sheet" but if I give them the images to use then what was the point in giving them the massage in exchange for her time? lol

Cant have your cake and eat it too smile

XP

Oct 03 09 12:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Wilde One
Posts: 2,356
Santa Monica, California, US


XposurePhoto wrote:
Cant have your cake and eat it too smile

... especially if you're on a diet. wink

Oct 03 09 01:52 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,610
Los Angeles, California, US


bump.
Oct 10 09 03:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Wilde One
Posts: 2,356
Santa Monica, California, US


pothole.
Oct 11 09 01:08 am  Link  Quote 
Model
sofija
Posts: 23,614
Boston, Massachusetts, US


D M M  wrote:
I. Love. You.


Shandra, you are as intelligent as you are beautiful.

^^^^


(sad that I didn't see this thread until now!)

Go Shandra!!

Oct 14 09 05:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,610
Los Angeles, California, US


smile

bump
Oct 29 09 07:06 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,610
Los Angeles, California, US


happy halloween.
Oct 31 09 07:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
MissSybarite
Posts: 11,863
Los Angeles, California, US


XposurePhoto wrote:
Cant have your cake and eat it too smile

XP

Except on your birthday wink

Nov 01 09 11:59 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,610
Los Angeles, California, US


bump.
Nov 07 09 01:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
MissSybarite
Posts: 11,863
Los Angeles, California, US


smile
Nov 08 09 11:20 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,610
Los Angeles, California, US


bump!
Nov 17 09 07:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,610
Los Angeles, California, US


bump.
Nov 23 09 02:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
A N I A
Posts: 86
Brooklyn, New York, US


accurate.
love the sandwich comment.
smile
Nov 23 09 03:08 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,610
Los Angeles, California, US


bump.
Dec 09 09 08:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Honey Stinger
Posts: 6,332
Madison, Wisconsin, US


Shandra Stark wrote:
bump.

bumping shit?

Dec 09 09 08:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
V I C T O R I A
Posts: 13,976
Los Angeles, California, US


YAY for this thread. Seriously.
Dec 09 09 08:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
wynnesome
Posts: 5,419
Long Beach, California, US


Post hidden on Dec 09, 2009 10:27 pm
Reason: violates rules
Comments:
Spam
Dec 09 09 08:52 pm  Link 
Model
Amy Blain
Posts: 329
Gainesville, Florida, US


Just fantastic. And for reference I have shot with more than one photographer in a day and it was a blast. I would definitely love to do it again!
Dec 09 09 08:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
MissSybarite
Posts: 11,863
Los Angeles, California, US


OP has fled the MM household hmm
Dec 13 09 05:18 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Deanna Deadly
Posts: 4,451
Los Angeles, California, US


I just now saw this thread but its amazing. Thank you!
Dec 14 09 09:29 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
LadyBomb Photography
Posts: 85
Spartanburg, South Carolina, US


Amazing post, I really wish more people realized this!
Dec 14 09 09:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Implied Artistic Images
Posts: 264
Frederick, Maryland, US


Bump this is just good information.
Dec 26 09 07:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dan Lee Photo
Posts: 2,978
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia


iMonstrosity wrote:
The economy sucks so I can't pay you." messages suck, because it assumes that the person that they are talking to doesn't experience the effects too - we all do.

Thats exactly the same as "I and officially going to school full time now to be a pharmacy tech, so my shooting is more limited. and sadly enough, I didnt qualify for financial aid, or a grant, so I have to pay the cost of the class. which is $13,000." which I saw on a profile and lolled and moved on.

Though theyre in another country, I wouldn't hire them if I was looking for a paid model, I just find it lame to put that on a profile.

There's the counter argument of "well my gear costs x, i need to fund that so i dont lose money" from a photographers perspective, which people consider lame, its a few steps less lame.

It's at least related expense to the shoot (and shooting in general) you organise with x person.

Having something like that and stating the cost on the profile is ridiculously lame imho, expecting people to fund something unrelated of your own choosing to the expenses of the shoot with them.

Dec 26 09 07:34 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dan Lee Photo
Posts: 2,978
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia


XposurePhoto wrote:
I have seen many times when Models claims that they have no $$$... but yet, they show up in new Beemers and lexus.... not to mention they go eat Sushi after and get drunk ($150.00 + tag), and just came from vacation in Maui and have the pics of the luxury life... yet, with out asking for rates or offering trades they ask for a TFP for Their portfolio... it maysound extreme...but I seen it happend.

Well its like having $x, but not all of its expendable there's weekly food, rent, and other things you have consider before you think I have $x, you then see you have $x-$necessities/etc

An alcoholic has no money cause they spend all their money on booze, income - booze money = 0 expendable income tongue lol

Dec 26 09 07:38 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Sungoddess Studios
Posts: 5,169
Atlantic Highlands, New Jersey, US


Here's the kick in the ass.

You can't afford my production team.

I post TF* projects for my personal art.

Book a day.

NO SHOW!

hmm
Dec 26 09 08:11 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
HalfMoonColorado
Posts: 736
Greenwood Village, Colorado, US


One thing that I didn't see listed is the TF aspect. Typically when I pay a model they do not get a disc of the shoot nor do they get to add their own ideas and shots to the session.

Many times a model has some great ideas that they want to add to their portfolio or just shoot for fun. My TF shoots are always open to their input and I'll always find time to include what they want done. It's their portfolio too!

A feature that I also offer is I have a good size collection of wardrobe, accessories, and jewelry the model may use. This includes probably 25 hats, 30 pairs of shoes, new underwear, and everything from bustiers to UPS shirts to wedding dresses. If you are tired of the same old outfit or look this is a great way to get something new.

As a photographer and studio owner I make sure I let the model know that I offer a professional makeup station and a private changing room with a full length mirror and clothing racks. I can understand why someone is iffy about going to someone's home to do a shoot, especially for free. A profound problem we have as a photographer is setting myself as different from the guy with $400 and a Costco card who now is a 'photographer'. I won't even enter the Craigs List topic.

On the other hand you have to take MM, OMP, beModel, etc at face value. Not too long ago models had some form of education or schooling with posing, makeup, and business. Now anyone can be a 'model' just because their prom date told them they looked really hot. Trust me ladies, the guy had a condom in his pocket when he told you that. You're 5'1", 130#, two high school graduation photos as a portfolio, no experience, and all of a sudden you are a 'runway model' wanting $50 an hour?

Sorry folks - ya got me goin' there for a minute.
Jan 01 10 09:53 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,610
Los Angeles, California, US


bump.
Feb 16 10 08:21 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Eidolona
Posts: 461
Knik-Fairview, Alaska, US


XposurePhoto wrote:
I have seen many times when Models claims that they have no $$$... but yet, they show up in new Beemers and lexus.... not to mention they go eat Sushi after and get drunk ($150.00 + tag), and just came from vacation in Maui and have the pics of the luxury life... yet, with out asking for rates or offering trades they ask for a TFP for Their portfolio... it maysound extreme...but I seen it happend.

I have never seen or heard of a MM model in this situation. Sounds like an agency model or porn star. I for one stay in budget motels, don't own a car, and never pay more than 6 dollars for a meal. I highly doubt there are really model mayhem models that are high rollers like this. Most of them are the type to post looking for the cheapest hotel possible.

Feb 16 10 10:25 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Shandra Stark
Posts: 13,610
Los Angeles, California, US


bump.
Feb 25 10 12:50 pm  Link  Quote 
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