-IS wrote:
lame terms.. I would trust my daughter with a 21 year old female photographer before I trusted a middle age man or any man at that

Emeritus wrote:
That says a lot about you, but nothing at all about how a photographer should approach a shoot.

ANE Photography wrote:
As much as you want a photo shoot to be all business and professional, people have human error and emotions. While a photo shoot SHOULD go as you have been suggesting, history has shown us, that's not how it always will go.

Please note that my comment had nothing at all to do with the conduct of a shoot, but with the conduct and attitude of a third party not even involved with the shoot.

ANE Photography wrote:
I'm not debating whether or not these issues will come up, because I've seen them come up for other photographers. I'm asking what to do to cover myself WHEN they come up even after I've been completely professional in this setting.

Hire two Brinks security guards.  One to protect you and one to watch over the minor's escort.  Have a notary on hand to take a statement from both guards at the conclusion of the shoot.  File a certified copy of a CD of all the pictures from the shoot with the clerk of the local federal court, and take a polygraph after the shoot.

That should cover most problems, but you can never tell what else might come up.  Shooting minors is dangerous!

Mac Swift wrote:
Most of my headshot work is done with minors.  If I see a pretty face I like to photograph it regardless of its age.  No big deal, but you Americans are way over the top with the whole evil, pervert photographer thing.  Not all of us middle aged, male photographers are perverts, rapists and axe murderers.

Your post contributes nothing to this thread, except to make disparaging remarks about "you Americans," and demonstrate your rather overdeveloped sense of defensive outrage.

Page 5 Photographer wrote:
[Mac Swift's] disparaging remarks above come from a denizen of a country where it is illegal to photograph or distribute photos of even the mildest bondage, spanking, implied S&M, etc. Admit it, eh.

Haven't been to Canada in a while, eh?

Mac Swift wrote:
Most of my headshot work is done with minors.  If I see a pretty face I like to photograph it regardless of its age.  No big deal, but you Americans are way over the top with the whole evil, pervert photographer thing.  Not all of us middle aged, male photographers are perverts, rapists and axe murderers.

Page 5 Photographer wrote:
The disparaging remarks above come from a denizen of a country where it is illegal to photograph or distribute photos of even the mildest bondage, spanking, implied S&M, etc. Admit it, eh.

Mac Swift's comment about Americans was quite unnecessary, but I really wonder where Page 5 got that idea about Canada. You might want to check out what's selling on eBay.ca:
http://stores.shop.ebay.ca/ArtoStock-Fi … Z803227016

[/hijack]

Doug Swinskey wrote:
they are no different then any other model....

as long as you understand "age appropriate" images.

-IS wrote:
I would trust my daughter with a 21 year old female photographer before I trusted a middle age man or any man at that

I have a teen daughter, I wouldnt base whom I trusted on sex or age at all, thats completely ridiculous.

And its also completely ridiculous to say "the world is full of evil".. no its not.
As a matter of fact, statistically the percentage of people that are willing or wanting to do you or your daughter physical harm is extremely low.

I swear some people need to stop watching 24 hour news channels if they cant see those exploited stories are NOT the norm and are the extreme exception to the rule.

Sophie Edwina wrote:
I am only 17 and I run into a lot of roadblocks with photographers who are afraid to shoot me. I have a look that would appeal to an older crowd, I guess I don't do a lot of "seventeen magazine" type things.
I know I am working with a good photographer when they are interested in meeting my parents/guardians and having me sign a model release as well as a consent form.
I don't do anything I would consider too sexual for my age, and generally a photographer will ask what I am comfortable and not comfortable with, I am good at laying it all on the table.

There are plenty of good photographers out there that would shoot with you, people buy into the hype and people do have the right to shoot what they feel comfortable with.  Personally I wont shoot weddings.

Sophie Edwina wrote:
I am only 17 and I run into a lot of roadblocks with photographers who are afraid to shoot me. I have a look that would appeal to an older crowd, I guess I don't do a lot of "seventeen magazine" type things.
I know I am working with a good photographer when they are interested in meeting my parents/guardians and having me sign a model release as well as a consent form.
I don't do anything I would consider too sexual for my age, and generally a photographer will ask what I am comfortable and not comfortable with, I am good at laying it all on the table.

CGI Images wrote:
There are plenty of good photographers out there that would shoot with you, people buy into the hype and people do have the right to shoot what they feel comfortable with.  Personally I wont shoot weddings.

The OP indicated later in the thread that she is actually only interested in the legalities of shooting minors.  She should probably edit the opening post.

ANE Photography wrote:
Also my post was being taken in the wrong direction in the aspect that, i don't need to know how to act on a photo shoot. I am a professional. I know to be professional at all times. What I need to know is the legalities and how to cover myself JUST IN CASE when working with a minor and what things are in HER best interest starting out as an under 18 model.

Richard Dubois wrote:
The OP indicated later in the thread that she is actually only interested in the legalities of shooting minors.

Well heck, then thats easy.. simple there are NO laws against taking pictures of minors.

There are laws in the "how", and they are pretty black and white.. so I'll refer back to dougs.. "age appropriate" and quit worrying about it.

Emeritus wrote:
As a point of reference:

The last model I shot, a couple of weeks ago, was in Arkansas, which is not exactly a hotbed of liberalism.  It was done about midnight, next to a dumpster behind a strip mall, with only me, the model and her husband present.  The model is 17 years old. She signed the release; nobody else did.

Some would argue that the pictures (her idea, taken at her request) are not "age appropriate":


And yet somehow the people to be publishing the pictures have not complained, the police have not been called, there have been no calls for my public flogging.  Go figure.

Public Flogging...Public flogging....we have not had a decent Flogging in days.....

Emeritus wrote:
As a point of reference:

The last model I shot, a couple of weeks ago, was in Arkansas, which is not exactly a hotbed of liberalism.  It was done about midnight, next to a dumpster behind a strip mall, with only me, the model and her husband present.  The model is 17 years old. She signed the release; nobody else did.

Some would argue that the pictures (her idea, taken at her request) are not "age appropriate":


And yet somehow the people to be publishing the pictures have not complained, the police have not been called, there have been no calls for my public flogging.  Go figure.

Well while I'm behind the flogging 100%, our society really doesnt seem to have an "age appropriate" point for violence.. just the human body and any pleasure or affection to do with it.  Cut it, shoot it, stab it, mutilate it all you want, just dont make it feel good.

Eden_L wrote:
Yes, being female changes things. If nothing else in the perception of the parents/guardians authorizing & signing off on, the shoots.

Certainly it changes things from the standpoint of those not involved in the shoot.  We have already had a good example of that above.  However, it doesn't change the way the shoot itself should be handled, which was the question (as we eventually arrived at it).

ANE Photography wrote:
.... This other girl I haven't worked with but on her myspace page has under "modeling" a bunch of barely clothed photos. Obviously this isn't the work I want to do with a 16 year old. However, they are both absolutely gorgeous girls and I would like to get them started early so they can get somewhere with it if they can. They also look much older than they are.

My question is, how do I handle these situations with minor models? It may help to tell you that I am a 21 year old female which may make a difference between me and a middle aged man doing their photos.
ANY advice you can give about this subject would be very helpful!
Thank you!

It sounds like you are uncomfortable with the "barely clothed" images on the girl's page.

My advice is stay away. Even with a parent or guardian at the shoot and everything signed, your images posted with those images may cause an association of you with those images which make you uncomfortable, I suppose you are uncomfortable because you're posting the issue here.

Why risk possible association of your work with work you think is a problem? If you are concerned about your reputation, then stay away from a possible situation where you would feel uncomfortable.

Hope this helps.

Niall Photo wrote:
My advice is stay away. Even with a parent or guardian at the shoot and everything signed, your images posted with those images may cause an association of you with those images which make you uncomfortable, I suppose you are uncomfortable because you're posting the issue here.

Why risk possible association of your work with work you think is a problem? If you are concerned about your reputation, then stay away from a possible situation where you would feel uncomfortable.

I don't understand this.

Should a model under 18 not work with me because I have nudes of other models in my portfolio?

I see no reason at all why well-done pictures, "age appropriate" (whatever that means, see above) are an issue regardless of what else a model may have done with someone else.  You will be judged by what you shoot, not what someone else does.

Richard Dubois wrote:

Mac Swift wrote:
Most of my headshot work is done with minors.  If I see a pretty face I like to photograph it regardless of its age.  No big deal, but you Americans are way over the top with the whole evil, pervert photographer thing.  Not all of us middle aged, male photographers are perverts, rapists and axe murderers.

Your post contributes nothing to this thread, except to make disparaging remarks about "you Americans," and demonstrate your rather overdeveloped sense of defensive outrage.


Haven't been to Canada in a while, eh?

Many visits, but not for photography. But anyhow, I'm talking about the black letter law in Canada, not about photography in actual practice. But as long as I'm educating you about Canadian practices, how many people are aware that Canada now allows Sikh "mounties" to wear Turbans with their uniforms rather than the proper "Dudley Dooright" Mountie Hat? Eh? EH?

Penzzi Photography wrote:
if possible don't wait till 18

Why?? really.. why?

Emeritus wrote:
As a point of reference:

The last model I shot, a couple of weeks ago, was in Arkansas, which is not exactly a hotbed of liberalism.  It was done about midnight, next to a dumpster behind a strip mall, with only me, the model and her husband present.  The model is 17 years old. She signed the release; nobody else did.

Some would argue that the pictures (her idea, taken at her request) are not "age appropriate":


And yet somehow the people to be publishing the pictures have not complained, the police have not been called, there have been no calls for my public flogging.  Go figure.

And if she's not an emancipated minor at the time, the release wasn't worth the paper it's written on. As to "age appropriate," the real concern is nudity or sexual themes, no one much cares if you filthy her up and pose her amidst trash. BTW, what makes you think the release is worth a darn?

-IS wrote:

Emeritus wrote:
lame terms.. I would trust my daughter with a 21 year old female photographer before I trusted a middle age man or any man at that

If I was there with my 16 year old daughter there wouldn't be a need to worry about whether the photographer was a 21 year old female or a 45 year old male.

Page 5 Photographer wrote:
A few minutes of paranoia can prevent a lifetime of regret.

It's rare that a girl and/or her mother shake down a photographer. Either with premeditation, or regret after the fact, or any other reason. But it's ruinous if it happens.

But let's talk about another profession subject to paranoia and occasional shakedowns. And perhaps some doctors here can answer.

When a photographer examines, say, a 16 -year old girl, he routinely has a nurse or the like present. He doesn't need the nurse's help, she's there as his "chaperone" and witness to prevent shakedowns. But my question is this, and I'm curious: "If the girl has her mother present, does the doctor still make sure that he has his own escort - I mean "nurse" or "assistant" - present?"

I really dont even know where to begin with this.  Funny last week I took my daughter in to the Dr for an ear infection, who is a few years away from 18 yet, and the Dr didnt need anyone in the room with him when he examined her.. ridiculous.

And I also suppose by your "paranoia" example, a person shouldnt shoot with 19yr old models either because they could "shake down" a photographer as well, maybe he'd get off but the accusations could be "runious".

Emeritus wrote:

I don't understand this.

Should a model under 18 not work with me because I have nudes of other models in my portfolio?

I see no reason at all why well-done pictures, "age appropriate" (whatever that means, see above) are an issue regardless of what else a model may have done with someone else.  You will be judged by what you shoot, not what someone else does.

I'm sorry I did not articulate my idea clearly.

I assumed that the OP had concern about the images on the girl's page, and had a concern about other people inferring that those images were "age-in-aproprate". So if the OP has a concern that others would make that inference about OP's work being in the same context as those images of concern, then I'm trying to address her concern.

It may be the case that there's no inference about the OP's image's being age-in-apropriate because they are posted with age-in-apropriate images, but it seems that that was the OP's concern, so that's what I was trying to speak to.

ANE Photography wrote:
Hello everyone =]
I am a new photographer in a town in the middle of nowhere. This town has little to offer model wise. I can't really travel right now because I'm still enrolled in college and don't have the time or money to travel.

Your profile says your in Johnstown, PA. Your about an hour out of Pittsburgh. Meet half way with a model. If your enrolled in college then their has to be a couple of people around that would be willing to model for you.

ANE Photography wrote:
This other girl I haven't worked with but on her myspace page has under "modeling" a bunch of barely clothed photos. Obviously this isn't the work I want to do with a 16 year old.

Good chances the parents aren't tech savvy and are unaware of the photos.

ANE Photography wrote:
However, they are both absolutely gorgeous girls and I would like to get them started early so they can get somewhere with it if they can. They also look much older than they are.

The context, what your shooting and how the children will be portrayed (yes children) will be the determining factor when you have their parents sign that release form. If your getting them to model clothing for Target I'm sure that their parents will be fine with it. You start going into subject matter that may require you to be a little bit more liberal minded, you may find yourself having problems.

Sticking to models that are 18 yrs old, that are adults and can make their own  decisions for themselves is the reason I stick to 18yrs +. They are accountable to themselves and the law.

Good luck!

Page 5 Photographer wrote:

And if she's not an emancipated minor at the time, the release wasn't worth the paper it's written on. As to "age appropriate," the real concern is nudity or sexual themes, no one much cares if you filthy her up and pose her amidst trash. BTW, what makes you think the release is worth a darn?

I don't know how it works in California. But in Georgia, a person who who is under 18 and married is automatically granted all the rights and benefits of being an adult with one exception. They can execute contracts, register vehicles, vote, etc. The exception is that child welfare laws still apply which means no nudes.

Federal laws apply to all 50 states. But each state and locality can also legislate and enforce its own laws, rules and regulations. Making blanket statements about how any law applys to any sitiation is usually not a good idea. That's one reason why almost everyone here will tell you to check with your lawyer before taking any action.

Page 5 Photographer wrote:
And if she's not an emancipated minor at the time, the release wasn't worth the paper it's written on. . . . BTW, what makes you think the release is worth a darn?

Did you happen to notice that her husband was present at the shoot?  She lives in Alabama.  Under Alabama law as a married woman she has full right to contract in her own name.

But even if that were not true, minors can enter into contracts and, in all but seven states minors can sign model releases in their own name.  And under some conditions they can even in some of those seven states.  The releases may, in some (not all) states be disaffirmed, but they are valid until they are disaffirmed, and it's possible to structure the release (as I do) in a way that makes it difficult for them to void.

It is not true in most cases (see above) that minors cannot sign valid releases.  There are just limitations on how much you can rely on them.

Page 5 Photographer wrote:
As to "age appropriate," the real concern is nudity or sexual themes, no one much cares if you filthy her up and pose her amidst trash.

I see.  So you think you speak for everyone on the issue of "age appropriate", do you?  Could it, just possibly, be that maybe someone, somewhere, does not share your views?

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
Cover your ass and make sure you are never alone with the girl. Make sure at least one of her parents are there the entire time.

You never know what trouble the imagination of a 16 year old can create for you after the shoot.


KM

or any immature female for that matter

Marc Damon wrote:
I don't know how it works in California. But in Georgia, a person who who is under 18 and married is automatically granted all the rights and benefits of being an adult with one exception. They can execute contracts, register vehicles, vote, etc. The exception is that child welfare laws still apply which means no nudes.

You're right, of course.  Our interlocutor seems ignorant of his own California law even, let alone the law of Arkansas which applied to my shoot.  In California:

7002.  A person under the age of 18 years is an emancipated minor if
any of the following conditions is satisfied:
   (a) The person has entered into a valid marriage, whether or not
the marriage has been dissolved.
   (b) The person is on active duty with the armed forces of the
United States.
   (c) The person has received a declaration of emancipation pursuant
to Section 7122.

Further, there is an exception in California law that, for state law purposes, married women can also legally do porn shoots.

But never mind that.  Actually knowing what the law says never seems to matter to these "never shoot a minor" folks.

Peden E wrote:
I am a newbie model, age 16 and I have had the same response on the model end where photographers refuse to shoot me because of my age even with my parent there.

your profile wrote:
Height:      5' 8"Weight:    
112 lbs

Plus a lovely face.  I'd happily shoot with you.  As others have said, parents present and "age appropriate" styles.  Keep looking, or talk to an agency.  You should have a reasonable shot at commercial.

Andrew Thomas Designs wrote:
1) don't work with crazy people.
2) don't shoot anything meant to be sexy.
3) don't act like a pervert.

don't offer them candy

wickedlove wrote:
Make sure you tell them the rules.
1. You will not pose them in sexual positions, or in no clothes, so you yourself won't get in trouble.
2. Make sure a parent is there.
3. Go with your gut.

Agreed. I occasionally shoot with minor models, and the number one rule is: play by the rules! Never cut corners with paperwork or legal requirements when shooting with a minor, and stay away from provocation.