Warning
Take care to include only information and commitments that you can fulfill. Any message or correspondence could be used as evidence of intent in court for either party if things go south and someone decides to pursue legal action as this kind of message could be considered a contractual agreement.  Of course laws and case precedents vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. YMMV

So here are the things I include when making shoot offers to Models:

Location
Give the specific location of the shoot. If that's not possible (or it's a location you don't want a lot of people knowing about) if them a general area. Models need to know where they will be going not just for safety but for logistics as well if they are looking to make other plans for the day.

List this first so that if they have to refer back to this message, they won't have to scroll down to find it.

Availability
What date and time of day are you looking to shoot? If flexible with the date/time then what is your general availability to shoot?

Length of Shoot
How long will the shoot be? Do they need to provide extra time for styling or business matters?

FAQ
Point to your FAQ if you have one. This can be a list on your profile, a PDF document or a page/post on your blog. Some Models feel more comfortable know exactly what they are dealing with when working with you and this gives you a chance to present your policies and procedures so that they can determine if this is a good working fit.

This is where you want to address things like:
- escort policy
- your post-production process
- re-scheduling in case of emergency

Shoot Agreement/Releases
Provide a link to all of the documents that you want them to sign so that the Model can have a chance to review them ahead of time if they choose to do so. No one likes surprises. Being transparent with your intent will help gain the trust of the Model which translates to better pictures. It's in your interest to do this.

Compensation
What are you offering in exchange for the talent's efforts? Images? Money? Barter? Some combination? Be clear with this.

If the shoot is for trade give a general turn around time, if the Model can select image/how many they can select and how many images you deliver.

My philosophy is to be the one that first puts out a rate. With this kind of detail, the Model can easily determine if it's worth while and may take you up on the offer partly out of appreciation that you don't waste their time going back and forth!  

Images to be Shot
Be specific with the images you want shot. Describe what you want to shoot and then link to them or embed sample images into the message.

Get clear on artist boundaries BEFORE the shoot. If there is a question about how explicit you can shoot ask and point to a sample image in the Model's portfolio for what you want to do. If no such image is in the Models port, point to sample image or have them link you an image that they would not shoot.

Usage
Give them an idea of how the images could be used. Again this goes to trust building and transparency. I would avoid absolutes (like "only", "never") unless its is something that you are certain about and can live with the restriction.

Styling
Do you expect the Model to do their own styling or will you have a Stylist for the shoot? If you want the Model to do the styling then provide example images of hair and make-up from their port. Better yet, find a YouTube video to show them how to do what you want.

Also be clear on wardrobe. Provide specific instruction on what you need for them to bring to the shoot. If you don't know, take a minute and figure it out! Even nude Models need to bring something. Create a common list of items that you expect Model's to bring or ask them what do they normally bring to a shoot as a starting point. If you are providing wardrobe, say so. If you need the Model to bring something specific let them know. Don't make them bring a suitcase full of stuff and you don't use any of it.

---------

Again this is what I do. If you have something that works for you, please feel free to share it so that we all benefit from a different perspective or approach.

GCobb Photography wrote:
And people would read that as much as they do the complete casting calls?

This obviously only applies to people who care about modelling, you're welcome to just say "hey show up monday" to someone looking to seem like a model on facebook. They probably won't show up, though, but making a rant thread seems to fix that problem.

Damianne wrote:

This obviously only applies to people who care about modelling, you're welcome to just say "hey show up monday" to someone looking to seem like a model on facebook. They probably won't show up, though, but making a rant thread seems to fix that problem.

Hows about Tuesday ??

Damianne wrote:
This obviously only applies to people who care about modelling, you're welcome to just say "hey show up monday" to someone looking to seem like a model on facebook. They probably won't show up, though, but making a rant thread seems to fix that problem.

You know what's funny is that often with the really experienced and dedicated models, it takes almost no back and forth. Someone asks if the other one wants to shoot. The other person says yes. Date and time agreed, and done.

Maybe I'm spoiled.

I'm going to take some of these suggestions anyway though, as it certainly can't hurt to be more detailed, and I forget sometimes the crazy amount of correspondence that models have to juggle. I'm going to work on minimizing the back and forth, as a courtesy.

Sita Mae wrote:
You know what's funny is that often with the really experienced and dedicated models, it takes almost no back and forth. Someone asks if the other one wants to shoot. The other person says yes. Date and time agreed, and done.

Maybe I'm spoiled.

This.

I used to write everything the OP suggests, then I realized no-one was reading it and it was a complete waste of time.

GCobb Photography wrote:
And people would read that as much as they do the complete casting calls?

Damianne wrote:
his obviously only applies to people who care about modelling, you're welcome to just say "hey show up monday" to someone looking to seem like a model on facebook. They probably won't show up, though, but making a rant thread seems to fix that problem.

Exactly. Part of doing this is to help filter out the non-serious from the serious.

I don't want to waste time with people who are flippant with their approach to their craft. The one's that can't be bothered with reading details or who don't pay attention are prime candidates for post shoot drama. They are basically telegraphing that they are a pain in the ass to deal with.

I would think that this is vice-versa for Models. A Photographer that is hard to get details from can be seen as suspect and shady. It may also signal future difficulties with communications. This can make a trade shoot less appealing than a Model-Paid shoot where they can get their money and leave not have to deal with the Photographer after the shoot.

Sita Mae wrote:
You know what's funny is that often with the really experienced and dedicated models, it takes almost no back and forth. Someone asks if the other one wants to shoot. The other person says yes. Date and time agreed, and done.

Maybe I'm spoiled.

I'm going to take some of these suggestions anyway though, as it certainly can't hurt to be more detailed, and I forget sometimes the crazy amount of correspondence that models have to juggle. I'm going to work on minimizing the back and forth, as a courtesy.

Your take is the spirit of the post. Take away what usable if applicable to your situation.

I find the most Models are appreciative of the detailed message and comment that it stands out in a sea of non-committal emails or vague offers for shoots. I think part of showing respect to Models is valuing their time as well as you value yours.

Mickle Design Werks wrote:
OK, this post is a tangent to this thread on the Model Colloquy.

I think a lot of the unnecessary email/message pong can be minimized if a detailed shoot offer is presented to the Model or Stylist. I have a bolierplate ready that I can easily adjust and customize for the offer that I want to send along and it's very detailed. I thought it would be helpful to share the elements of it with you all with what I include in my shoot offers when I contact Models.


There needs to be a "like" button
So here are the things I include when making shoot offers to Models:

Location
Give the specific location of the shoot. If that's not possible (or it's a location you don't want a lot of people knowing about) if them a general area. Models need to know where they will be going not just for safety but for logistics as well if they are looking to make other plans for the day.

List this first so that if they have to refer back to this message, they won't have to scroll down to find it.

Availability
What date and time of day are you looking to shoot? If flexible with the date/time then what is your general availability to shoot?

Length of Shoot
How long will the shoot be? Do they need to provide extra time for styling or business matters?

FAQ
Point to your FAQ if you have one. This can be a list on your profile, a PDF document or a page/post on your blog. Some Models feel more comfortable know exactly what they are dealing with when working with you and this gives you a chance to present your policies and procedures so that they can determine if this is a good working fit.

This is where you want to address things like:
- escort policy
- your post-production process
- re-scheduling in case of emergency

Shoot Agreement/Releases
Provide a link to all of the documents that you want them to sign so that the Model can have a chance to review them ahead of time if they choose to do so. No one likes surprises. Being transparent with your intent will help gain the trust of the Model which translates to better pictures. It's in your interest to do this.

Compensation
What are you offering in exchange for the talent's efforts? Images? Money? Barter? Some combination? Be clear with this.

If the shoot is for trade give a general turn around time, if the Model can select image/how many they can select and how many images you deliver.

My philosophy is to be the one that first puts out a rate. With this kind of detail, the Model can easily determine if it's worth while and may take you up on the offer partly out of appreciation that you don't waste their time going back and forth!  

Images to be Shot
Be specific with the images you want shot. Describe what you want to shoot and then link to them or embed sample images into the message.

Get clear on artist boundaries BEFORE the shoot. If there is a question about how explicit you can shoot ask and point to a sample image in the Model's portfolio for what you want to do. If no such image is in the Models port, point to sample image or have them link you an image that they would not shoot.

Usage
Give them an idea of how the images could be used. Again this goes to trust building and transparency. I would avoid absolutes (like "only", "never") unless its is something that you are certain about and can live with the restriction.

Styling
Do you expect the Model to do their own styling or will you have a Stylist for the shoot? If you want the Model to do the styling then provide example images of hair and make-up from their port. Better yet, find a YouTube video to show them how to do what you want.

Also be clear on wardrobe. Provide specific instruction on what you need for them to bring to the shoot. If you don't know, take a minute and figure it out! Even nude Models need to bring something. Create a common list of items that you expect Model's to bring or ask them what do they normally bring to a shoot as a starting point. If you are providing wardrobe, say so. If you need the Model to bring something specific let them know. Don't make them bring a suitcase full of stuff and you don't use any of it.

---------

Again this is what I do. If you have something that works for you, please feel free to share it so that we all benefit from a different perspective or approach.

There needs to be a "Like" button on MM. I love this post.

Laura UnBound wrote:
Look at you, all...making sense and stuff. Don't you know us models have all the time and patience in the whole wide world to deal with

"let's shoot!"

"okay, for what, when, where, what time, how long, what concept?"

"how about Monday?"

"okay....for what, where, what time on monday, how long on Monday, what are we shooting?"

"I was thinking maybe some art nudes, I dunno, I think I'd just like to wing it...."

"great, what is your budget?"

"can you do your own hair?"

"yes, what is your budget? Where do you want to shoot? How long do you think it will take? When would you like to start by?"

"probably 10am if that works for you?"

"10am is fine, where at? When do you want to wrap by, what is the compensation for this shoot?"

"I don't really have a budget, I was hoping we could work TF and I could help you build your portfolio"

I just say, "Do you like black rope or red?"

Red?   Alrighty then! Any day, the week after next between 4PM and 11PM. You pick the date and time. It'll take two hours, three if we're having fun. Count on two and after that we'll wing it. If your marks are cool and we both want to, we can add another hour, then maybe we'll do three. I'll pay you $100 an hour and I'd like you to wear only the rope and a toe-ring. If you don't feel comfortable wearing so little, you can add clear lipstick. I'll pay you in cash at the end of the shoot after you sign a relatively standard 2257 model release.  You pick the date and start time and let me know by tomorrow and we'll have a deal. Other than the cash, you can expect to be treated with dignity and respect. I know what "No" means and you aren't even going to have to say it unless I'm asking you if you'd like more pickled herring. If you decide to do this, within a day, I'll provide directions to the studio in St. Paul where we'll shoot along with a copy of the forms I'll need signed. When you come to the shoot bring a driver's license, signed forms and a good attitude. If your escort isn't listed in the yellow pages under "escorts", them they don't get to be on the set in the studio during the shoot.

I try to make thing easy. If the model doesn't respond within 24 hours, she wasn't interested.

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:

Hows about Tuesday ??

Location, concept, and payment are all in your profile/portfolio, mdear. You just have to inform us poor Marcus first-timers about the amount of time involved.

Robert Jewett wrote:
This.

I used to write everything the OP suggests, then I realized no-one was reading it and it was a complete waste of time.

Everything the OP suggests can be in a quick paragraph.

"Hey, I have a shoot I'm looking to do, beauty shots with dramatic makeup like this: . I have an mua/hairstylist  and styling won't be necessary, just wear a nude bandeau. I was thinking next week or the one after, this weekend isn't available for the MUA/stylist but the next is if you can't do a weekday. It'll be at my downtown studio . We'll probably need 3/4 hours for makeup and shooting.
I'll probably get 3-4 images for you from the shoot. Are you interested?"

or

"Hello, I want to start breaking into nudes, and I notice you've got a lot of experience with them. I have a low budget, can only spare $80 for you, but it will be a simple studio shoot, at my house . I think 2, maybe 3, hours should do it, but since I haven't done this before I'm not certain. I also have a couple bottles of shiraz I can give you for your time (your profile says trade for booze ). Let me know if you'd be interested and when you're available."


Some details are implied.
All details are easily conveyed.

It doesn't need to be a novel.

Personally I'd suggest adding release/usage information can be on the second message, after the shoot has been tentatively agreed to.

Mickle Design Werks wrote:
OK, this post is a tangent to this thread on the Model Colloquy.

I think a lot of the unnecessary email/message pong can be minimized if a detailed shoot offer is presented to the Model or Stylist. I have a bolierplate ready that I can easily adjust and customize for the offer that I want to send along and it's very detailed. I thought it would be helpful to share the elements of it with you all with what I include in my shoot offers when I contact Models.


So here are the things I include when making shoot offers to Models:

Location
Give the specific location of the shoot. If that's not possible (or it's a location you don't want a lot of people knowing about) if them a general area. Models need to know where they will be going not just for safety but for logistics as well if they are looking to make other plans for the day.

List this first so that if they have to refer back to this message, they won't have to scroll down to find it.

Availability
What date and time of day are you looking to shoot? If flexible with the date/time then what is your general availability to shoot?

Length of Shoot
How long will the shoot be? Do they need to provide extra time for styling or business matters?

FAQ
Point to your FAQ if you have one. This can be a list on your profile, a PDF document or a page/post on your blog. Some Models feel more comfortable know exactly what they are dealing with when working with you and this gives you a chance to present your policies and procedures so that they can determine if this is a good working fit.

This is where you want to address things like:
- escort policy
- your post-production process
- re-scheduling in case of emergency

Shoot Agreement/Releases
Provide a link to all of the documents that you want them to sign so that the Model can have a chance to review them ahead of time if they choose to do so. No one likes surprises. Being transparent with your intent will help gain the trust of the Model which translates to better pictures. It's in your interest to do this.

Compensation
What are you offering in exchange for the talent's efforts? Images? Money? Barter? Some combination? Be clear with this.

If the shoot is for trade give a general turn around time, if the Model can select image/how many they can select and how many images you deliver.

My philosophy is to be the one that first puts out a rate. With this kind of detail, the Model can easily determine if it's worth while and may take you up on the offer partly out of appreciation that you don't waste their time going back and forth!  

Images to be Shot
Be specific with the images you want shot. Describe what you want to shoot and then link to them or embed sample images into the message.

Get clear on artist boundaries BEFORE the shoot. If there is a question about how explicit you can shoot ask and point to a sample image in the Model's portfolio for what you want to do. If no such image is in the Models port, point to sample image or have them link you an image that they would not shoot.

Usage
Give them an idea of how the images could be used. Again this goes to trust building and transparency. I would avoid absolutes (like "only", "never") unless its is something that you are certain about and can live with the restriction.

Styling
Do you expect the Model to do their own styling or will you have a Stylist for the shoot? If you want the Model to do the styling then provide example images of hair and make-up from their port. Better yet, find a YouTube video to show them how to do what you want.

Also be clear on wardrobe. Provide specific instruction on what you need for them to bring to the shoot. If you don't know, take a minute and figure it out! Even nude Models need to bring something. Create a common list of items that you expect Model's to bring or ask them what do they normally bring to a shoot as a starting point. If you are providing wardrobe, say so. If you need the Model to bring something specific let them know. Don't make them bring a suitcase full of stuff and you don't use any of it.

---------

Again this is what I do. If you have something that works for you, please feel free to share it so that we all benefit from a different perspective or approach.

And all you get in response is...

Interested
xxx-xxx-xxxx

Joke aside, nice work OP.

Sita Mae wrote:

You know what's funny is that often with the really experienced and dedicated models, it takes almost no back and forth. Someone asks if the other one wants to shoot. The other person says yes. Date and time agreed, and done.

Maybe I'm spoiled.

I'm going to take some of these suggestions anyway though, as it certainly can't hurt to be more detailed, and I forget sometimes the crazy amount of correspondence that models have to juggle. I'm going to work on minimizing the back and forth, as a courtesy.

This is true!

Gloria Budiman wrote:
And all you get in response is...

Interested
xxx-xxx-xxxx

Gloria Budiman wrote:


Joke aside, nice work OP.

You mean you get the phone number or email address the first time you ask for it.

Gloria Budiman wrote:

And all you get in response is...




Joke aside, nice work OP.

Can't get a model to give you her phone number...rant about it


Get a model to give you her phone number...rant about it.



Don't ever change modelmayhem

SuperWink wrote:
I tend to think it shouldn't be that hard.  If there's a budget, they'll be there.  If there's no budget, I want someone easy to communicate with.  In TFP situations it pays to be flexible, but not a pushover.  I've found that if it seems as if it may be too much trouble, it'll always be too much trouble.

Having a budget (paying me) doesn't mean I'm going to put up with two weeks of pussyfooting around getting the shoot actually discussed and scheduled. Unless they're paying me for the time wasting and the headache they're giving me also. People have this silly idea that just because you hold a couple dollars in your hand you can treat the person it's intended for like your personal piece of stupid meat to do with whatever you want, including waste their time.

Too much trouble? What trouble? There's absolutely nothing difficult about

"hey, Id like to shoot this thing, on that date, at these times, in this place, for this compensation, are you interested?" that isn't made a billion times more difficult by 50 messages back and forth over the course of multiple days, weeks, months without actually confirming a shoot.

Laura UnBound wrote:
Can't get a llama to give you her phone number...rant about it


Get a llama to give you her phone number...rant about it.



Don't ever change llamamayhem

I usually get the llamas phone number when the shoot is confirmed.
Sometimes there are last minute details to straighten out.

Laura UnBound wrote:
Look at you, all...making sense and stuff. Don't you know us models have all the time and patience in the whole wide world to deal with

"let's shoot!"

"okay, for what, when, where, what time, how long, what concept?"

"how about Monday?"

"okay....for what, where, what time on monday, how long on Monday, what are we shooting?"

"I was thinking maybe some art nudes, I dunno, I think I'd just like to wing it...."

"great, what is your budget?"

"can you do your own hair?"

"yes, what is your budget? Where do you want to shoot? How long do you think it will take? When would you like to start by?"

"probably 10am if that works for you?"

"10am is fine, where at? When do you want to wrap by, what is the compensation for this shoot?"

"I don't really have a budget, I was hoping we could work TF and I could help you build your portfolio"

Love it!

This is what really 'grinds my gears' as some people say.

I can take any kind of ignorance, no replies, rudeness and it's water off a ducks back. But.....

... when I try and nail something down and only get partial answers it really pisses me off.

Second only to this kind of correspondence:

"I love your work, would really like to shoot with you, you're so creative."

"Cool - what did you have in mind?"

"Erm.. well what about me in a big fancy ballgown riding a white horse in z misty woodland?'

"Cool - do you have: the wardrobe, horse (white), misty woodland location?"

.....Static.....

Drew Smith Photography wrote:

Love it!

This is what really 'grinds my gears' as some people say.

I can take any kind of ignorance, no replies, rudeness and it's water off a ducks back. But.....

... when I try and nail something down and only get partial answers it really pisses me off.

Second only to this kind of correspondence:

"I love your work, would really like to shoot with you, you're so creative."

"Cool - what did you have in mind?"

"Erm.. well what about me in a big fancy ballgown riding a white horse in z misty woodland?'

"Cool - do you have: the wardrobe, horse (white), misty woodland location?"

.....Static.....

It almost never fails that a date is the first piece of info they will actually give me, so I hold that date while trying to drag the rest of the info out of them, and then something doesn't jive and I've held a date open for nothing, if they had just answered all the questions the first time, wouldn't have been a problem.

Or they drop off the face of the earth before all the questions where answered and we don't actually set up a shoot, and months/years later they bump the old message that THEY dropped the ball on and ask me "so, when are we gonna get to shoot?" . Uhm, maybe when you can follow through? That's as good a time as any for me.

I just don't understand what people enjoy about making things harder than they need to be

Robert Jewett wrote:
I used to write everything the OP suggests, then I realized no-one was reading it and it was a complete waste of time.

+1

I don't think any of my test shoots (just me and a model) in the last year have involved the exchange of even 20% of that information, and certainly not in the first message.

I find that experienced models are not interested in minutiae. They want the basic information: where, when, what to bring, concept (if any). Anything else is really just window dressing.



Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

B R U N E S C I wrote:
1

I don't think any of my test shoots (just me and a llama) in the last year have involved the exchange of even 20% of that information, and certainly not in the first message.

I find that experienced llamas are not interested in minutiae. They want the basic information: where, when, what to bring, concept (if any). Anything else is really just window dressing.



Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

1

Rarely when I've written to a llama regarding a test or TF shoot have I even mentioned a concept in the first contact. Sometimes a genre, sometimes not even that. The first contact is only to find out whether she's interested. A look at my portfolio should be enough to determine that.

I'm not going to reserve studio time for a certain date and time, much less ask an MUA set aside that time, without even knowing whether the llama is interested. Without doing those things, I wouldn't know if the date and time I proposed would still be a possibility by the time the llama reads my email.

Once a llama and I agree to do a shoot, nine times out of ten the first time that's suggested won't work for some reason anyway.

If the llama has a wish list of looks she wants in her portfolio, I might tell her that I've found 17 looks in her list that would be easy to produce in studio, and we could check 4-6 of them off her list in an afternoon.

I've found that, when it comes to TF shoots, the llama wants to have input into what we shoot anyway. It's only fair.

If I need something specific (I've been looking for a local fit llama who jogs with her dog to meet a Tuesday evening magazine deadline, for example), obviously I'll be very specific. Otherwise, the details can be worked out after interest is established.

Gloria Budiman wrote:

Mickle Design Werks wrote:
OK, this post is a tangent to this thread on the Model Colloquy.

I think a lot of the unnecessary email/message pong can be minimized if a detailed shoot offer is presented to the Model or Stylist. I have a bolierplate ready that I can easily adjust and customize for the offer that I want to send along and it's very detailed. I thought it would be helpful to share the elements of it with you all with what I include in my shoot offers when I contact Models.


So here are the things I include when making shoot offers to Models:

Location
Give the specific location of the shoot. If that's not possible (or it's a location you don't want a lot of people knowing about) if them a general area. Models need to know where they will be going not just for safety but for logistics as well if they are looking to make other plans for the day.

List this first so that if they have to refer back to this message, they won't have to scroll down to find it.

Availability
What date and time of day are you looking to shoot? If flexible with the date/time then what is your general availability to shoot?

Length of Shoot
How long will the shoot be? Do they need to provide extra time for styling or business matters?

FAQ
Point to your FAQ if you have one. This can be a list on your profile, a PDF document or a page/post on your blog. Some Models feel more comfortable know exactly what they are dealing with when working with you and this gives you a chance to present your policies and procedures so that they can determine if this is a good working fit.

This is where you want to address things like:
- escort policy
- your post-production process
- re-scheduling in case of emergency

Shoot Agreement/Releases
Provide a link to all of the documents that you want them to sign so that the Model can have a chance to review them ahead of time if they choose to do so. No one likes surprises. Being transparent with your intent will help gain the trust of the Model which translates to better pictures. It's in your interest to do this.

Compensation
What are you offering in exchange for the talent's efforts? Images? Money? Barter? Some combination? Be clear with this.

If the shoot is for trade give a general turn around time, if the Model can select image/how many they can select and how many images you deliver.

My philosophy is to be the one that first puts out a rate. With this kind of detail, the Model can easily determine if it's worth while and may take you up on the offer partly out of appreciation that you don't waste their time going back and forth!  

Images to be Shot
Be specific with the images you want shot. Describe what you want to shoot and then link to them or embed sample images into the message.

Get clear on artist boundaries BEFORE the shoot. If there is a question about how explicit you can shoot ask and point to a sample image in the Model's portfolio for what you want to do. If no such image is in the Models port, point to sample image or have them link you an image that they would not shoot.

Usage
Give them an idea of how the images could be used. Again this goes to trust building and transparency. I would avoid absolutes (like "only", "never") unless its is something that you are certain about and can live with the restriction.

Styling
Do you expect the Model to do their own styling or will you have a Stylist for the shoot? If you want the Model to do the styling then provide example images of hair and make-up from their port. Better yet, find a YouTube video to show them how to do what you want.

Also be clear on wardrobe. Provide specific instruction on what you need for them to bring to the shoot. If you don't know, take a minute and figure it out! Even nude Models need to bring something. Create a common list of items that you expect Model's to bring or ask them what do they normally bring to a shoot as a starting point. If you are providing wardrobe, say so. If you need the Model to bring something specific let them know. Don't make them bring a suitcase full of stuff and you don't use any of it.

---------

Again this is what I do. If you have something that works for you, please feel free to share it so that we all benefit from a different perspective or approach.

And all you get in response is...




Joke aside, nice work OP.

Actually, if I've made the pitch correctly, that's exactly the response I want.

I've defined the shoot to such a degree that they don't have to think about it any more. That's a plus and relief for Models not to have to draw information out over several exchanges just to determine if the shoot is worth their time. No one wants their time wasted by non-starters.

Robert Jewett wrote:
I realized no-one was reading it and it was a complete waste of time.

Perhaps, but at least if the information's there (even if it's all in a FAQ page on your website), they can't say they weren't notified/warned about anything in the event a shoot goes south - not your fault if they didn't read it.

I pretty much go through most of the same stuff with people I shoot TF.  Not all in the first post/message, no, but during the course of conversation.

I don't want to just give a model a date, time, location and have her say "yup, ok" on a TF shoot.  I want collaboration and input - kinda the point of TF for me.

B R U N E S C I wrote:

+1

I don't think any of my test shoots (just me and a model) in the last year have involved the exchange of even 20% of that information, and certainly not in the first message.

I find that experienced models are not interested in minutiae. They want the basic information: where, when, what to bring, concept (if any). Anything else is really just window dressing.



Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

That's fine for a situation were you don't deal with newbies or hobbyist Models. A lot of us do choose to deal with them and they aren't as trusting or take assumptions for granted regarding shoot standards for tests. There is also greater accountability when testing with Agency Models. If you misstep or mistreat a Model then that can ruin your rep in such a small elite universe.

I presume that part of the reasons that you've chosen to deal with Models that are higher up the food chain so that you don't have to send detail messages like this or least send it all at once because they understand the game. I think you and Sita are correct when it comes to more experienced Models not needing so much upfront.

I will argue that the secondary benefit of sending this kind of message is that it takes assumption out of the equation and leaves little room about what is to be shot. In sense it's like issuing a call sheet before scheduling a shoot. I'd like to think that Models prefer more detail rather than less.

Flip the script. Would you take a gig with a client that gave you just the details you give to your Models for shoots? That's the standard I'm operating from.

Ultimately there is no "right" way and I'm not saying that people should do what I do, but I think we can agree that you should recognize who you are dealing with and understand what they need to make a decision about shooting with you and give that to them.

Mickle Design Werks wrote:

That's fine for a situation were you don't deal with newbies or hobbyist Models. A lot of us do choose to deal with them and they aren't as trusting or take assumptions for granted regarding shoot standards for tests. There is also greater accountability when testing with Agency Models. If you misstep or mistreat a Model then that can ruin your rep in such a small elite universe.

I presume that part of the reasons that you've chosen to deal with Models that are higher up the food chain so that you don't have to send detail messages like this or least send it all at once because they understand the game. I think you and Sita are correct when it comes to more experienced Models not needing so much upfront.

I will argue that the secondary benefit of sending this kind of message is that it takes assumption out of the equation and leaves little room about what is to be shot. In sense it's like issuing a call sheet before scheduling a shoot. I'd like to think that Models prefer more detail rather than less.

Flip the script. Would you take a gig with a client that gave you just the details you give to your Models for shoots? That's the standard I'm operating from.

Ultimately there is no "right" way and I'm not saying that people should do what I do, but I think we can agree that you should recognize who you are dealing with and understand what they need to make a decision about shooting with you and give that to them.

It's usually the more experienced models who have these long lists of details they want up front. Sometimes I suspect that they're only trying to see how good the photographer is at jumping through hoops - and how willing he is to do so.

NEXT!

A majority of my TF shoots have been with models who (according to their profiles) don't do TF shoots. And I never provide that level of detail in an initial contact, regardless of experience level, for reasons listed in my post above.

Mickle Design Werks wrote:
OK, this post is a tangent to this thread on the Model Colloquy.

I think a lot of the unnecessary email/message pong can be minimized if a detailed shoot offer is presented to the Model or Stylist. I have a bolierplate ready that I can easily adjust and customize for the offer that I want to send along and it's very detailed. I thought it would be helpful to share the elements of it with you all with what I include in my shoot offers when I contact Models.


So here are the things I include when making shoot offers to Models:

Location
Give the specific location of the shoot. If that's not possible (or it's a location you don't want a lot of people knowing about) if them a general area. Models need to know where they will be going not just for safety but for logistics as well if they are looking to make other plans for the day.

List this first so that if they have to refer back to this message, they won't have to scroll down to find it.

Availability
What date and time of day are you looking to shoot? If flexible with the date/time then what is your general availability to shoot?

Length of Shoot
How long will the shoot be? Do they need to provide extra time for styling or business matters?

FAQ
Point to your FAQ if you have one. This can be a list on your profile, a PDF document or a page/post on your blog. Some Models feel more comfortable know exactly what they are dealing with when working with you and this gives you a chance to present your policies and procedures so that they can determine if this is a good working fit.

This is where you want to address things like:
- escort policy
- your post-production process
- re-scheduling in case of emergency

Shoot Agreement/Releases
Provide a link to all of the documents that you want them to sign so that the Model can have a chance to review them ahead of time if they choose to do so. No one likes surprises. Being transparent with your intent will help gain the trust of the Model which translates to better pictures. It's in your interest to do this.

Compensation
What are you offering in exchange for the talent's efforts? Images? Money? Barter? Some combination? Be clear with this.

If the shoot is for trade give a general turn around time, if the Model can select image/how many they can select and how many images you deliver.

My philosophy is to be the one that first puts out a rate. With this kind of detail, the Model can easily determine if it's worth while and may take you up on the offer partly out of appreciation that you don't waste their time going back and forth!  

Images to be Shot
Be specific with the images you want shot. Describe what you want to shoot and then link to them or embed sample images into the message.

Get clear on artist boundaries BEFORE the shoot. If there is a question about how explicit you can shoot ask and point to a sample image in the Model's portfolio for what you want to do. If no such image is in the Models port, point to sample image or have them link you an image that they would not shoot.

Usage
Give them an idea of how the images could be used. Again this goes to trust building and transparency. I would avoid absolutes (like "only", "never") unless its is something that you are certain about and can live with the restriction.

Styling
Do you expect the Model to do their own styling or will you have a Stylist for the shoot? If you want the Model to do the styling then provide example images of hair and make-up from their port. Better yet, find a YouTube video to show them how to do what you want.

Also be clear on wardrobe. Provide specific instruction on what you need for them to bring to the shoot. If you don't know, take a minute and figure it out! Even nude Models need to bring something. Create a common list of items that you expect Model's to bring or ask them what do they normally bring to a shoot as a starting point. If you are providing wardrobe, say so. If you need the Model to bring something specific let them know. Don't make them bring a suitcase full of stuff and you don't use any of it.

Unfortunately the people who probably NEED to read this, likely will never think it applies to them.

Sita Mae wrote:

You know what's funny is that often with the really experienced and dedicated models, it takes almost no back and forth. Someone asks if the other one wants to shoot. The other person says yes. Date and time agreed, and done.

Maybe I'm spoiled.

I'm going to take some of these suggestions anyway though, as it certainly can't hurt to be more detailed, and I forget sometimes the crazy amount of correspondence that models have to juggle. I'm going to work on minimizing the back and forth, as a courtesy.

+1000

Damianne wrote:

This obviously only applies to people who care about modelling, you're welcome to just say "hey show up monday" to someone looking to seem like a model on facebook. They probably won't show up, though, but making a rant thread seems to fix that problem.

Agree!