glumpy wrote:
Perhaps shooters need to take a different tact to put models at ease so they can avoid the drama's of the hanger on escorts?

Yes, first thing is to call everyone that is invited to be at a shoot "guests!"   I have never had a problem with people I've been properly introduced to that are mutual guests at our shoots. If I wish to invite a guest to the photo shoot, I talk with the model about it first.  If the model wishes to invite someone as a guest, the same consideration is appreciated.  I always ask the models if they'd like to bring someone to the shoot as so we discuss it in advance.  There have been cases where I've needed an EMT, but models have never brought a bodyguard to any photo shoots.

AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:
so yes you are saying girls are not allowed to make a mistake and correct it after?

No, as can clearly be seen in what I wrote, nowhere did I make any mention of mistakes or correcting them.
That is purely you trying to twist words I never said in order to validate your own agenda's. The rest of your post is just irrelevant clutching at straws trying to contradict a point that no one other than yourself is arguing.

You make it sound like girls only go home with strange blokes once in their life then never again. That's not what happens in the real world at all.
There have plenty of examples given as to the stupidity of a model worrying about being attacked by a shooter and the everyday examples where girls put themself in at least as much danger and plenty of times more than working with a photographer.

I'm not going to get into beating one another over the head with our differing points of view till one suddenly concedes "Oh you were right and I wasn't" because that's not going to happen.

Believe what you want as will I but just don't try and twist words that were never said in a lame attempt to win points in your own mind if no one elses.

AVD AlphaDuctions wrote:
There are plenty of reasons to just say no to escorts but this ain't one. this is just slut-shaming.

No, it's demonstrating a repeated pattern of irrational behavior.  Most people fail miserably at proper risk assessment.

MnPhoto wrote:
*Sorry, Patrick. I couldn't resist. I know it isn't funny to you, but you've mentioned it often, and I always get this vivid image of a couple of biker chics wearing spikes and black lipstick pushing you into a photolab, and patiently waiting for you to develop their film, before running out laughing into the night.

It happened in 1992, and it took me years before I would even admit that I was the victim.  I do understand how being a victim, that I was humiliated, threatened, had no proof of the encounter, and didn't think anyone would believe me.  It wasn't funny at the time, but now I look back and can laugh with you about it.   

The best thing to do with these experiences is to learn from them.  I've made some mistakes along the way.  Let's put it this way, if there was a way to screw up film, i did it!  The first roll of film I shot of a girl I was in high school with at the time, I made her look awful!  Slide film in the midday sun ... harsh shadows, made her look like Frankenstein's bride!   I don't make those mistakes anymore.  Oh, and I don't go looking for models at nightclubs either.  Modelmayhem is just a bit safer. 

Patrick Walberg wrote:

Yes, first thing is to call everyone that is invited to be at a shoot "guests!"   I have never had a problem with people I've been properly introduced to that are mutual guests at our shoots. If I wish to invite a guest to the photo shoot, I talk with the model about it first.  If the model wishes to invite someone as a guest, the same consideration is appreciated.  I always ask the models if they'd like to bring someone to the shoot as so we discuss it in advance.  There have been cases where I've needed an EMT, but models have never brought a bodyguard to any photo shoots.

So your solution is to use semantics?

Same shit, different name, problem goes away?
Wow.
Glad that works so well for you. I'm not so good at breathing with my head stuck in a bucket of sand so it's probably not going to work the same for me.

I don't want " guests" at my shoots.  I'm not having a party, i'm not there to entertain and give them a good time, to show them hospitality, run a peep show or anything else.

I'm there to do a job and the less people I have to consider in any shape or form the more I am free to concentrate on the job at hand.

The more I think about it, the more inappropriate the notion of " Guests" at a shoot seems. I'm sure people with regular 9-5 jobs or any other work don't invite their friends along as " guests" so I find the whole notion quite absurd in reality.

I like to work with grown up girls that don't need mummy to wipe their bottoms or hold their hands when they cross the street.
If they need someone to come with them to a shoot, then there is no way they are going to be able to project the look of confidence, independence and strong will that I want in my pics when they have clearly demonstrated they don't have any of those qualities.

I'll stick to inviting Guests to social events and keeping Escorts and the models they think they own well at arms length.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
I'll make it simple for you then.  The Original Post asked; "Have u ever known about violence against llamas?"   My answer to that question directly is that I have never personally known of violence against llamas.  Have I ever heard of any incidence of violence against llamas?  Of course.  Of the few incidences that I have heard about through third parties, I could not verify that it actually occurred the way they said it did.  Nor do I believe that the number of incidents is dramatically more or less then most typical occupations where sexual or violent behavior can occur.

I'm sorry that you are not able to "see" the intelligence in what I wrote.

You didn't deserve that comment.   You are a intelligent and reasonable man.   When I saw this thread I thought to myself.   Why would a photographer who knows how difficult it can be to get llamas start a thread like this.   We can be our own worst enemy.   Look llamas do have too be careful but a quick check of the news shows that women suffer more at the hands of ex lovers, current lovers and casual dates then at any photo session.   This past month several police officers have been accused of assaulting women.   Several star athletes as well as men who were not photographers.   These kinds of threads are a can of worms none of needs.   No one is saying llamas shouldn't use caution but woman should exercise the same caution with all men.   People can be evil.   A former MM llama has been convicted along with her lover of killing the owner of a tattoo parlour.   That could have easily been a photographer

Here a story in the news now about a llama murder:   http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/0 … 75682.html   How many threads were started?   Sadder still is a member has stated that almost half of her shoots have some creepy dude.   Is that true?   I don't know.   I do think that many of the llamas here are immature and very young compared to photographers.   What is some goof being silly or making a stupid joke may be seen as sinister by a young woman.   What might be fine from a young good looking dude is creepy when done by a older man.   

The larger point is  really don't need yet another thread scaring llamas and telling them to be careful.  Its in general a bad ideal for photographers to start.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Oh, and I don't go looking for models at nightclubs either.  Modelmayhem is just a bit safer. 

Neither do I. I usually just approach girls I come in contact with in every day life.
This is a lot more productive, efficient and far less hassle than MM or any other web site although I am having a really good run with models from another site atm.

glumpy wrote:
Girls go home with random guys they nothing about and supposedly feel safe doing so.

Ironically, they will insist on bringing a Crutc... , escort with them to go to an established business/ professional that they can easily check up on before hand to make sure of their Bona Fides.

Maybe if you are a good dancer, buy the girl lots of drinks and get her wasted and have a big " package" then you must be trustworthy enough to take home and sleep with?

If you are just interested in working with them, then geez, you must be suspect and the poor little model is at dire risk. 


Perhaps shooters need to take a different tact to put models at ease so they can avoid the drama's of the hanger on escorts?

I understand what you are saying, although you are exaggerating to make a point.  When someone settles into a pattern of the example of the model who always insists on an escort, there is a danger in becoming complacent without even considering that each and every person or situation is different. 

If a model is in the state of mind that she believes that because she brings an "escort" aka; bodyguard to every shoot with her that she does not need to check references for example.  That in itself can be a mistake.  Every person is unique, so don't treat everyone the same. 

You and I work differently with models.  I do allow guests.  I might have a new model bring a guest for her first time shooting with me, but then soon after, we maybe carpooling to the beach together to shoot one on one.  So even the guy and gal you see meeting at a nightclub might have already met before and are role playing?

glumpy wrote:
So your solution is to use semantics?

Same shit, different name, problem goes away?
Wow.
Glad that works so well for you. I'm not so good at breathing with my head stuck in a bucket of sand so it's probably not going to work the same for me.

I don't want " guests" at my shoots.  I'm not having a party, i'm not there to entertain and give them a good time, to show them hospitality, run a peep show or anything else.

I'm there to do a job and the less people I have to consider in any shape or form the more I am free to concentrate on the job at hand.

The more I think about it, the more inappropriate the notion of " Guests" at a shoot seems. I'm sure people with regular 9-5 jobs or any other work don't invite their friends along as " guests" so I find the whole notion quite absurd in reality.

I like to work with grown up girls that don't need mummy to wipe their bottoms or hold their hands when they cross the street.
If they need someone to come with them to a shoot, then there is no way they are going to be able to project the look of confidence, independence and strong will that I want in my pics when they have clearly demonstrated they don't have any of those qualities.

I'll stick to inviting Guests to social events and keeping Escorts and the models they think they own well at arms length.

Again, you and I simply work differently.  If you want to go into semantics, ok ... but it still doesn't change the fact that in 30 years time, I have never had a bad experience with people that were met and checked out by me before the shoot.  It's strangers ... people I don't know that I am now cautious about.  The two women I brought over to the studio the same night I met them were strangers to me.  Had I taken the time to check them out further, I might not have been kidnapped and robbed of the negatives & proof sheets.

Oh by the way, I shoot with many models one on one too!  I've carpooled with many models to locations.  The guests that they have introduced me to and that I have also introduced them to have been positive.  I'm not an "All or nothing" type of guy, and I treat every person as an individual.  We all can work towards building trust at our own pace.

Colorado Model Amber wrote:

Yup it's not uncommon, It does happen!

Actually it is the very definition of uncommon. There approximately 15,000 murders in the United States annually. A google search of murders of models by photographers shows about 20 over the past 15 years. So out of the last 225,000 murders approximately .00008 percent of them were committed by photographers.  If that's not uncommon i don't know what is. Isn't it time we stopped all the inflated fraudulent alarmist stuff like this?

Strength Studios wrote:
Actually it is the very definition of uncommon. There approximately 15,000 murders in the United States annually. A google search of murders of models by photographers shows about 20 over the past 15 years. So out of the last 225,000 murders approximately .00008 percent of them were committed by photographers.  If that's not uncommon i don't know what is. Isn't it time we stopped all the inflated fraudulent alarmist stuff like this?

1 assaulted model is too many.
1 sexually assaulted model is too many.
1 raped model is too many.
1 murderer model is too many.

If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.

JoJo wrote:
1 assaulted model is too many.
1 sexually assaulted model is too many.
1 raped model is too many.
1 murderer model is too many.

If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.

That I agree with 100%

Strength Studios wrote:
Isn't it time we stopped all the inflated fraudulent alarmist stuff like this?

well that idea worked for the catholic church for a long time.

let's just pretend nothing ever happens.. and maybe it will all just go away.

Malinaa wrote:

Gippingvalleyphotograph wrote:
My point? road traffic kills and mames thousands annually and the legislature has taken moves to reduce that death toll.

Photography (even by poor hoobyists like me) is less regulated because it does not carry the same risks.

Please, some smart alec tell me about checking references etc, then tell me you check the insurance, license and other legal documents of every car and driver you journey with. Thought not.

I think photography is only less regulated because it does not affect as many people if done "unsafe" as driving, therefore it is not such a public topic in everyday peoples lifes. Would be people having issues with photographers/models ona daily basis it would be soon regulated I guess.

JoJo wrote:

1 assaulted model is too many.
1 sexually assaulted model is too many.
1 raped model is too many.
1 murderer model is too many.

If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.

I agree. I say CAM that murderer model!

GER Photography wrote:
Yes, a few years ago here in California some asswad "photographer" took a girl into the desert and killed her. So, yes it does happen. Do a google search for llama killed or llama found dead you'll be surprised How many stories show up.

That's true...but that statement requires context and perspective to be valid.

Many of the "photographers" were only posing as photographers, and a minimum of background checking would have exposed them as frauds...yet the "models" collaborated with them anyway.

When you subtract the instances where llamas (or "models") didn't check out the photographer before working with them, or instances where the individual was posing as a photographer, the list becomes very small.

GER Photography wrote:
We simply have differing opinions of the world and some of it's inhabitants!:-))

No...you have different opinions on how safety from such inhabitants is achieved.

I think we all agree on the world and those that inhabit it.

Star wrote:
Usually I stay away from these threads,

Actually, that is quite untrue. You usually make a point of appearing in most of them.

Star wrote:
that should be locked right away, but my search engine must be better than yours

Hell several of the articles mention MM as being the place the "photographer" found his victims
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/201 … ring-model

Another poor example of a pretend-photographer luring a 17 yr old girl that lacked parental supervision being harmed because of the complete lack of due diligence.

Star wrote:
Look, maybe you live in La-La land where everything is fine, but if you talk to your models, really talk, you will find almost every single one has a story of a photographer behaving in a way that made them at the very least very uncomfortable and at the most filing a police report. Modeling is more dangerous then working in a bank, cause at the bank you either know all your co workers or have bullet proof glass and an armed security guard between you and the strangers. In fact many places that have people interacting with the public as a whole have security on site (banks, clothing stores, malls, grocery stores).

Stop trying to find a way around the escort argument for a forum thread and book the models you want to work with and stop worrying about how everyone else does business.

One could easily ask you to stop worrying about the same things.

Star wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree … use-models

"Sexual abuse of models is fashion's dirty secret

Instead of getting worked up over a little tummy fat the industry should tackle the issue of rape"

"It is impossible to say how common assaults on models by people in the business are because so few are reported, partly for the usual reason assaults often go unreported (a sense of shame on the woman's part), but also because of some factors specific to the fashion industry: models are often very young; they fear they won't work again if they "cause a fuss". Model Cohen describes it as "a reality in the industry"."


MY search engine brought up (all of these from the first page of searches)

http://missionviejo.patch.com/groups/po … 4c1654f848

http://www.wthr.com/story/19527718/phot … els-safety

this search was very fruitful
https://www.google.com/search?q=amateur … 31&bih=897

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ … odels.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … model.html

http://www.haringeyindependent.co.uk/ne … on_models/

http://www.shedoesthecity.com/model-cha … al-assault

More irrelevant examples that do not make the case that modeling is inherently dangerous when due diligence and sensible safety techniques are employed.

Star wrote:

the sky is blue. Should kangaroos be better regulated as pets because the sky is blue?

This type of reasoning is priceless...

Star wrote:
the sky is blue. Should kangaroos be better regulated as pets because the sky is blue?

Image K wrote:
This type of reasoning is priceless...

It's crazy!  You & I have posted so many times in what must be hundreds of threads on this forum that pertain to "escorts!"   As long as humans walk this Earth, there will be disagreements, murder and rape.  There will also be agreement, love and justice too.  Much of this has to do with our differing perspective on how we see the World.

Remember when I started that silly thread years ago about how "escorts" might be beneficial to shoots or some such shit?  We locked horns in that one!  I really learned a lot over the years of posting in these threads.  In understanding those various terms, I really don't have "escorts" or body guards attending any of my shoots.

I use communication to learn things about the models I shoot with BEFORE they get in front of my camera.  By the time they get in front of my camera, we have already built trust in each other.  When I talk about "invited guests" it's actually about people we mutually have agreed will benefit our shoot.  Some are assistants to me or to the models.  A hair stylist and/or MUA might be invited (and paid!)  Much of the choices to put together a team, or have one person assist, or no one with us depends on if it's a TFP or paid shoot, and location. 

There have been times when I've shot with minors, and a chaperone is suggested.  Even then, it depends on the model and how much trust the parents have with me.  As in the past, I've shot with minors where the parents dropped them off at my studio.  Others stay and watch.  I have even shot with some minors enough where the parents had me pick their daughter up and drive her to the shoot.  These young ladies have grown up to become adults with their own kids ... and guess what?  I'm still shooting their family many years later!  Of course with minors, the shoot is always within the appropriate guidelines of typical modeling shots or portraits. 

It's quite an honor when some of my friends consider me their "family" photographer.  And I don't take that trust lightly.  It cannot be rushed in most cases, as trust should be earned.  Checking my references as I will check yours.  Communicating in various formats such as using online messages to plan details.  Texting and calling on the phone to confirm plans.  Then calling the night before the shoot to confirm everything is still on.  If someone is in the same town as me, sometimes I'll even meet them in person before a shoot. 

If a new model asks if she can bring "a friend" so that she will feel more comfortable in new surroundings, I will discuss this with her.  I don't try to talk her out of it, instead I discuss with her what this person will be doing to help her be more comfortable.  If that person is someone I've met through a referral (many models send other models to me) then perhaps it will be a mutually known person.  I've also been invited by photographers and models to attend shoots where I know both, but they don't know each other.  I don't have a problem with that at all.  The lead photographer is in charge, be it me or the one I've been invited by.  I was in a camera club, so this was a common occurance for me back in the 1980's.  That is why I use the term invited guest ... someone that is mutually agreed upon by both the photographer and model ... and understands their place in this situation.  The person "invited" will not be a stranger by the time they arrive at the shoot.   I make sure of that!

I try not to over communicate, but most get a kick out of me when I ask point blank "are you gonna flake on me?"  "You thinking of bringing a big mean headknocker to beat me up if I look at you cross eyed?"  The very first model I worked with who came directly from this website is Gina (MzMafia).  She and I had a good laugh about the drama on this forum.  She did not flake, and she came by herself.  We've shot again since, and the last time she picked me up in her car.

You can just imagine my style or way of working with people.  I consider myself to be a better "people manager" than photographer ... quite honestly!  I had to be good at people management to shoot all the weddings I've shot, and manage the portrait studios that I have.   The night that those two women basically stole the film and proofs from me was a learning experience for me.  I figured "well I'm a stranger to them, so what the hell ... they both can come."  They were complete strangers to me too!   I had let my guard down!

That incident happened to me before the Internet.  There were bells, red flags and whistles that those two young women blew though!  I was a long haired hippie dude driving a cargo van with blacked out windows that they met at a nightclub.  I gave them my business card. (big deal!)  They liked the idea of doing a photo shoot, and "why not tonight?"  They follow me in their Honda car to a deserted strip mall in the middle of the night.  I open the door to a large studio, they were much more trusting of me when I think about it.

The session went fine ... probably with me doing most of the talking.  Then I'm putting away the camera when the "model" changed quickly into a Nazi bitch that would demand I process the film and give everything to her right away!  Her friend even helped her with saying that I better do it or they'd make good on their threats to make a scene.  It would be the word of two attractive young women against one long haired hippie dude.  Looked bad for me, but now I understand that I blew through warning signs too. 

I never knew their last names, and never saw their drivers license.  The realization that I had no clue as to why they knew where my darkroom was ... or seemed to know more about me than I knew about them hit me hard.  No wonder they didn't mind taking risks, as they told me before I finished processing the film that this is how they build their portfolios in Germany!  That is pretty frightening when you think about it!  They left in the wee early morning hours ... never to be seen by me again.

Since then, I have shot with German models without any fear of them doing the same.  What I do differently is I carefully listen to what the model is saying.  I check references.  I provide my own references when asked.  I communicate with them until I've reached the point where I am comfortable working with them.  I don't rush things.   That incident happened to me back in 1992, and I have not had another experience like that since!

Lorin Edmonds wrote:
Yes

Both times it was her escort that beat her up later

Another no escort story!

JoJo wrote:

1 assaulted model is too many.
1 sexually assaulted model is too many.
1 raped model is too many.
1 murderer model is too many.

If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.

this is totally true but totally misses the point. if 1 murder is too many and there were 20, then 225,000 murders is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more of a problem.  the fact that they were models is irrelevant at that point. stop murder. stop rape. then you wont have to worry about 'photographers' and other minorities.  making "if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem' statements is part of the problem. stop murder. then you dont have a problem. with photographers. or gynecologists. or plumbers. or anyone.

terrysphotocountry wrote:
Another no escort story!

There were two females that kidnapped, and robbed me of the film and proofs.  Wouldn't you like to know if there were two women using kidnapping, extortion and threats to steal photographers images and perhaps even gear?   I never reported the crime committed against me.   Looking back, I wish I had, but I was too humiliated.   In a reversal of the situation, I can imagine that some models who have been victimized by photographers might feel the same way about inappropriate behavior.  Don't be strangers!  Check each other out!

Patrick Walberg wrote:
When someone settles into a pattern of the example of the model who always insists on an escort, there is a danger in becoming complacent without even considering that each and every person or situation is different. 

If a model is in the state of mind that she believes that because she brings an "escort" aka; bodyguard to every shoot with her that she does not need to check references for example.  That in itself can be a mistake.  Every person is unique, so don't treat everyone the same.

I think you make an excellent but rarely noted point on this!
I am sure that is exactly what happens  in a lot of cases.

They are so busy trying to be safe they in fact put themselves in danger though not paying due diligence to other matters they should be concerned with.

Thinking about it, when I did allow handbags to come with the models, there weren't any I couldn't have taken out pretty easily if I was so inclined to get to the girl. Generally the more possessive and uptight the BF, the smaller and dweebier they are because they know they are batting well above their ranking.

OTOH, I have had a good few guys come in with the model, ask what sort of time we will be finished and then go off till they get a call to come get them.  Sometimes they have arranged ( secretly) with the girl to ring her a short while later to make sure everything is ok but these guys generally have looked like they could defend the girl if need be.

The girls have later admitted the phone call arrangement and I'm more than happy with that. I think it's a bloody smart and clever thing to do.
It's good to hear the girl telling the guy 20 min into the shoot how good everything is and how much fun she is having and to take his time with whatever he's doing because she wants to make the most of the shoot.

I did have a girl bring a female friend once and I could have gleefully killed the hanger on. I would have had to take a number and get in line behind my wife though as she nearly drove her beyond self control! :0)

So many girls I have spoken with over the years have been adamant about bringing an handbag hanger on for their safety but not a single one has ever asked for references before hand.
In total, I can only remember being asked for references about twice in the last 5 years although I know there were a few going back a bit earlier into my participation on model sites .

I have yet to see one single Creditable upside to a girl bringing a hanger on to a shoot yet but experienced first hand too many downsides.

Lucky there is people like you and me to cover all the proclivities one way or the other.

Gippingvalleyphotograph wrote:
Cars have seat belts and air bags and crumple zones, drivers are tested and police check details when drivers are stopped. Cars are regularly tested (in most developed countries) annually for basic safety etc. Roads are designed with safety built in.

My point? road traffic kills and mames thousands annually and the legislature has taken moves to reduce that death toll.

Photography (even by poor hoobyists like me) is less regulated because it does not carry the same risks.

Please, some smart alec tell me about checking references etc, then tell me you check the insurance, license and other legal documents of every car and driver you journey with. Thought not.

Oh and while I'm ranting, why is it always models at risk? Equality guys, we all have a right to be equally at risk.

An excellent and Poignant post!
Far from a rant, you make perfect logical and practical sense.

Thats what shits me with a lot of arguments of this type. People manufacture rubbish excuses to justify their illogical position that just doesn't hold up when applied to other things they do every damn day.

Combining my points and yours, I hope these girls that insist on handbags check the licences, rego and insurance of the guys that they met at the clubs and go home with.  :0)

To me, if a Theory doesn't cut both ways, it's a load of BS.

Strength Studios wrote:
Actually it is the very definition of uncommon. There approximately 15,000 murders in the United States annually. A google search of murders of models by photographers shows about 20 over the past 15 years. So out of the last 225,000 murders approximately .00008 percent of them were committed by photographers.  If that's not uncommon i don't know what is. Isn't it time we stopped all the inflated fraudulent alarmist stuff like this?

JoJo wrote:
1 assaulted model is too many.
1 sexually assaulted model is too many.
1 raped model is too many.
1 murderer model is too many.

If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.

But there is more than one "problem."

The only 100% effective solution to violence against models is to ban modeling.  But, no, people would still do it illegally, and the same women who WERE models could STILL be assaulted by someone else in their day to day lives, since modeling, with proper precautions, isn't really more dangerous than other options.  It is LESS dangerous than plenty of alternatives.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
When someone settles into a pattern of the example of the model who always insists on an escort, there is a danger in becoming complacent without even considering that each and every person or situation is different. 

If a model is in the state of mind that she believes that because she brings an "escort" aka; bodyguard to every shoot with her that she does not need to check references for example.  That in itself can be a mistake.  Every person is unique, so don't treat everyone the same.

glumpy wrote:
I think you make an excellent but rarely noted point on this!
I am sure that is exactly what happens  in a lot of cases.

They are so busy trying to be safe they in fact put themselves in danger though not paying due diligence to other matters they should be concerned with.

Now you really understand me!   

I'm a true believer that each and everyone of us is unique and different in our own way, that even twins are not exactly alike.  Just because a gun was used to kill someone, making it illegal will not prevent gun violence.  Making modeling illegal will not prevent sexual assaults or violence.   And so on ...

I tried to use the "One model assaulted is too many, one suicide by gun is too many, one death in a car accident is too many ... " logic, but it does not work with human beings.  I did not know the two women came to my studio with intent to threaten, kidnap and strong arm rob me of the images I shot that night.  Reverse it and say what if I was the bad guy?  Those two women didn't know me.

We NEED to pay attention and not become complacent in believing that we are safe just because we are with someone.   I feel badly for the model who died in the car wreck recently, but if it is found that she rode in a car driven by a drunk driver? ...
-SMH- Justice maybe served to him, but she made a choice to ride with him and died.

These are choices we make!  Choices like getting in a car driven by a drunk driver, or to stay with an abusive significant other, or to go to shoot pictures with some stranger you didn't bother to check out, or to pull the trigger on a gun to your head.  Suicide is a last choice that some people make.  I'm trained in suicide prevention, but I am helpless after the fact.  Once the trigger has been pulled, there is no coming back.

Choices like getting in a car with a drunk driver, staying in an abusive relationship, or going to some strangers house to shoot pictures ... may have serious consequences.  Then again, maybe the drunk driver makes it home alright, the abuse stops for some time, and the stranger is a nice photographer who takes great pictures of you.

Hundreds of threads on "escorts" have been posted in this forum, but if I had a dollar for everytime that using "due diligence" has been brought up, I'd be able to pay off a lot of bills!   Yet that is your answer!

I use due diligence in communication.  I treat every person and photo shoot as unique.  It's a choice I made awhile back that I would not treat people like a cookie cutter institutional portrait studio.  I would not treat shooting any weddings as routine.   Each and every person is treated as an individual by me.  We are not a number.  Drop being alert to differences and using due diligence, then it could all fall apart quickly.  We as photographers and models ... need to be aware of our choices.  That is the solution.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Back in 1992, I was kidnapped by two woman ... one posing as a model and the other her "escort" ... does that count?  I shot pictures of the model.  Then under threats ... she proceeded force me into her car, took me to my photo lab, then made me process the film, give her the negatives and proofs ... that was the last I saw of her.

Two scam artists threatened to kill me for my photographs. I had their livers with some fava beans and a nice chianti.

SF-SF-SF-SF-SF-SF-SF

JoJo wrote:
Unwanted sexual advances do happen between a model and photographer. They happen much more often than you would expect. The vast majority are never reported so they never show up on a police blotter much less on the front page of some news paper or as the lead story on the 11 o’clock news.

GPS Studio Services wrote:
This thread isn't about unwanted sexual advances, it is about violence.  They are totally different things.  While I do not approve of inappropriate conduct, models do have to be willing to say "no" and walk away.  All too often I read posts from models where they talk about a photographer doing things they shouldn't yet they finish the shoot.  Make no mistake, the photographer is wrong, but the models have to learn to say "no" and leave.  That in no way is an excuse for the photographer's bad behavior.  It does mean that once it occurs, the model still has to learn to walk out.

an unwanted sexual advance in common terminology can in some cases actually be a form of sexual battery or assault.

If someone asks a model out on a date, that might be unwanted but it's obviously not criminal.

But if a photographer (or model) starts putting their hands on someone to cop a feel, then that arguably can be a form of criminal behaviour. It depends on the circumstances and the laws of the locality it happened in.

Let's be honest here, the context of modelmayhem.com is that we're talking mostly older guys shooting mostly younger female models.  So when we are talking about instances where a dude is grabbing at some girl's tits or ass this is the context we're referring to, generally.

I've seen a number of photographers on this site seem to say, well as long as she's not dead or stabbed or shot or strangled or beaten, then it falls into "Skeevy" category and that's not so bad. Walk away.  Get over it.  Don't make such a big deal about it. 


Though I am anti-escort, the fact that the oft repeated scenario of a male touching a female without her permission and the situation is downplayed in these forums as not a form of violence bothers me.

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
I've seen a number of photographers on this site seem to say, well as long as she's not dead or stabbed or shot or strangled or beaten, then it falls into "Skeevy" category and that's not so bad. Walk away.  Get over it.  Don't make such a big deal about it.

Move on is the standard and perceived solution to all wrongs and evils here on MM.
No matter what happens, apparently one should just forget about it like it didn't happen and for god's sake never mention it on the forum or you'll incur the wrath of those that like to think everything is perfect.

Though I am anti-escort, the fact that the oft repeated scenario of a male touching a female without her permission and the situation is downplayed in these forums as not a form of violence bothers me.

It's not Violence.

It may be a lot of things but the mere act of touching without force which inflicts physical injury, by definition is not violence.
It may be creepy, assault, perverse or any number of other descriptions but it's not violence.

I can feel your butt or wedding tackle and that is not violence. Smacking someone in the mouth or kicking their arse is.

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
Though I am anti-escort, the fact that the oft repeated scenario of a male touching a female without her permission and the situation is downplayed in these forums as not a form of violence bothers me.

I'd like to ask a question, because it actually has bothered me on numerous occasions. Many of my shoots involve the act of tickling a person, and I state it on my profile, and I stated it in my explanation of my work to those interested models who decided to participate.

However at the shoot, the model seems to conveniently forget this detail of the work, and so starts acting as if she did not know what I was doing, and claiming it to be inappropriate.

Or, they'll take the money and then leave and spread all kinds of things about me. I've had a lot of it come back to me as well.

Or they'll ignore me.

What disturbs me is this question, "Is this common for most people? That they will go and do this kind of thing to most male photographers and get the money and leave, and slander people or other things?" or, "Did they truly forget what I described to them, multiple times, and which they also had time to go over in e-mail prior to the shoot?" At first I thought the latter, but now because it happened to me so often, I think it was the former.

Maybe they thought I wouldn't tickle them? I mean...wow....

I must be a surprise.

Patchouli Nyx wrote:
Though I am anti-escort, the fact that the oft repeated scenario of a male touching a female without her permission and the situation is downplayed in these forums as not a form of violence bothers me.

glumpy wrote:
It's not Violence.

It may be a lot of things but the mere act of touching without force which inflicts physical injury, by definition is not violence.
It may be creepy, assault, perverse or any number of other descriptions but it's not violence.

I can feel your butt or wedding tackle and that is not violence. Smacking someone in the mouth or kicking their arse is.

your definition of violence is only including brute force.  Violence includes non-physical/psychological forms of force as well.

you (and others)  are forgetting the power dynamic that is at play in a number of  MM shoots which is an older (and in most cases larger and physically stronger) adult male is shooting a young female who is in various stages of undress.

There is a power dynamic there that many MM photographers refuse to acknowledge because many MM photographers are males and for whatever reason find it hard to imagine the perspective from the other side.

A mere accidental brushing of a body part isn't a form of violence.  But a person who is using their power over another to force an unwanted touching is actually a violent (and criminal act).