Model
IDiivil
Posts: 4615
Los Angeles, California, US
Hi, everyone. I've been seeing a lot of "Why won't models trade with me?" threads the last couple days. Here's some information I've put together to hopefully clarify the situation and offer solutions for you guys. Why a model may turn down a test shoot with you: 1. They don't find your work specifically to be helpful to their book. 2. They don't find your concept specifically to be helpful to their book. 3. They don't care about modeling and just use it as a way to get money. 4. They don't have much time, so if they have the spare hours, they're going to take paid gigs or take nothing at all. 5. They have too many images already and don't care to have more - either in the genre you are looking to shoot or in general. 6. They don't understand what trade/test is and/or don't see the value in it. A general argument from such an individual would be, "Why would I work for free?" 7. They legitimately cannot tell the difference in quality of images, so they can't tell if you are better/worse than the average Joe Blow (or they don't care). In this case, even if you feel your work is much better than the model's portfolio, that fact won't matter to them. 8. They are signed with an agency that determines who they trade/test with and cannot work outside of that agency. 9. They love to trade, but maybe your concept infringes upon a boundary they've drawn where it's asking too much for no pay. An example of this is a model who would trade for clothed shoots all day, but s/he finds nudity a separate situation and will not work without being financially compensated. 10. Along the line of 9, the model is being asked to trade a genre s/he is completely unwilling to shoot no matter the circumstances. 11. The manner in which the model is offered the trade shoot has offended them... and/or the profile, about me, requirements of the person offering the trade shoot turns off the model. Even something as simple as not crediting a single model in one's portfolio can be of note to the model. 12. The model just can't afford to trade no matter what due to his/her financial situation. 13. The model may prefer trading in a situation where makeup/hair/wardrobe/cool location/publication opportunity is offered. 14. The model only trades with good friends who they can trust to be reliable/comfortable/fun to work with. And so on and so forth. So what can I do to get models? 1. Pay your model. 2. Improve your portfolio. 3. Reassess the message you are sending to your models. Maybe something you are writing to them or something in your profile text is sending them red flags. 4. Offer extras. Publication opportunities, makeup/hair stylists, unique wardrobe, gas money, food, amazing locations, and anything else that can make your offer stand out amongst others. 5. Write more models. 6. Make a casting call. 7. Have examples of the genre you are asking the model to trade with you on. If you want to shoot fine art and have no examples of fine art, the model may be unwilling to offer his/her time as they are unsure if the image will be useful to them. 8. Find a way to network and meet models so you can get to know them and hopefully be on a more comfortable, level ground to offer a trade shoot on. 9. Keep an eye on your internet presence. Coming off as a difficult person online can get noticed if a model does a little digging, and that can turn them off from otherwise shooting with you. ... I hope this helps give you guys ideas on why the model(s) you are writing are turning down trade and what you can do to change your situation 
Photographer
Adam J Caldwell
Posts: 290
London, England, United Kingdom
That Italian Guy wrote:
I offer cookies... does that help?
Just my $0.02
Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com I don't model, but i'd just about anything for a taste of cookies.
Model
Rachel in GR
Posts: 1656
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
WONDERFUL post. Thank you so much! This might have been said in a different way, but I'd just like to add to make sure you're asking the right models for what you want to do. Just because you like a girl's look doesn't mean she's going to want to do that fetish shoot with you, etc. 
Model
IDiivil
Posts: 4615
Los Angeles, California, US
Rachel-Elise wrote:
WONDERFUL post. Thank you so much!
This might have been said in a different way, but I'd just like to add to make sure you're asking the right models for what you want to do. Just because you like a girl's look doesn't mean she's going to want to do that fetish shoot with you, etc. Very good point. I'll add that to the big list!
Model
Rachel in GR
Posts: 1656
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
IDiivil wrote:
Very good point. I'll add that to the big list! 
Photographer
Drew Smith Photography
Posts: 5214
Nottingham, England, United Kingdom
Nice list.
You might add - overbearing/demanding or creepy Profile bio.
... and of course lack of cookies.
Photographer
Risen Phoenix Photo
Posts: 3779
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US
IDiivil wrote:
Hi, everyone. I've been seeing a lot of "Why won't models trade with me?" threads the last couple days. Here's some information I've put together to hopefully clarify the situation and offer solutions for you guys.
Why a model may turn down a test shoot with you:
1. They don't find your work specifically to be helpful to their book.
2. They don't find your concept specifically to be helpful to their book.
3. They don't care about modeling and just use it as a way to get money.
4. They don't have much time, so if they have the spare hours, they're going to take paid gigs or take nothing at all.
5. They have too many images already and don't care to have more - either in the genre you are looking to shoot or in general.
6. They don't understand what trade/test is and/or don't see the value in it. A general argument from such an individual would be, "Why would I work for free?"
7. They legitimately cannot tell the difference in quality of images, so they can't tell if you are better/worse than the average Joe Blow (or they don't care). In this case, even if you feel your work is much better than the model's portfolio, that fact won't matter to them.
8. They are signed with an agency that determines who they trade/test with and cannot work outside of that agency.
9. They love to trade, but maybe your concept infringes upon a boundary they've drawn where it's asking too much for no pay. An example of this is a model who would trade for clothed shoots all day, but s/he finds nudity a separate situation and will not work without being financially compensated.
10. Along the line of 9, the model is being asked to trade a genre s/he is completely unwilling to shoot no matter the circumstances.
11. The model just can't afford to trade no matter what due to his/her financial situation.
12. The model may prefer trading in a situation where makeup/hair/wardrobe/cool location/publication opportunity is offered.
13. The model only trades with good friends who they can trust to be reliable/comfortable/fun to work with.
And so on and so forth.
So what can I do to get models?
1. Pay your model.
2. Improve your portfolio.
3. Reassess the message you are sending to your models. Maybe something you are writing to them or something in your profile text is sending them red flags.
4. Offer extras. Publication opportunities, makeup/hair stylists, unique wardrobe, gas money, food, amazing locations, and anything else that can make your offer stand out amongst others.
5. Write more models.
6. Make a casting call.
7. Have examples of the genre you are asking the model to trade with you on. If you want to shoot fine art and have no examples of fine art, the model may be unwilling to offer his/her time as they are unsure if the image will be useful to them.
8. Find a way to network and meet models so you can get to know them and hopefully be on a more comfortable, level ground to offer a trade shoot on.
9. Keep an eye on your internet presence. Coming off as a difficult person online can get noticed if a model does a little digging, and that can turn them off from otherwise shooting with you.
... I hope this helps give you guys ideas on why the model(s) you are writing are turning down trade and what you can do to change your situation Leave those prima donnas alone and work with some one else. The OP put together a great list but I would like to add some of my own thoughts.
The models who feel they are above it all aren't worth paying or shooting. Find a small group of models that want to work with you and shoot, shoot shoot. As you get better your models will get better and then those models who didn't want to work with you will come knocking at your door.
HOWEVER..........
I think most photographers have an inflated sense of their abilities, and MM does nothing to put the proper perspective in their minds.
So while every top model is willing to work for these guys for money, they would never work with them otherwise. Therefore they are only doing it for the money. So in the end while the poses are better the photography isn't. If you only shoot once a month and you want to spend $200 to $300 for a model than by all means knock your self out.
All the traveling models will want to work with you, but that may not improve your photography.
What photographers need to improve their photography is a keen eye, learn to see light, understand effective studio lighting for the genre your doing, and a deft hand in post production.
Quit trying to shoot concepts and themes and simply shoot beautiful amazing natural images. Nothing worse than taking stupid pictures of poorly executed themes.... The models laugh at you.
Create a unique style that is appealing to models and viewers.
I am still working on improving, but slowly I am getting there. I do have a team of amazing models that I shoot and try to add one or 2 throughout the year. I have an amazingly beautiful muse that shoots with me often.
There are some of the best photographers in the world on this site. Look at their work study their images.
Models will work with you, when they fall in love with your work. The quality of those models who fall in love with your work will get better when you get better.
When a model wants to charge me rates I smile and let her know that I need to become a better photographer and pass on her offer.
Photographer
Photos by DeanR
Posts: 696
Nanaimo, British Columbia, Canada
Great post! Very well written.
Your reason #4 is a big one.
4. They don't understand what trade/test is and/or don't see the value in it. A general argument from such an individual would be, "Why would I work for free?"
I would add that they do not understand the value of networking, especially if they are brand new into modeling.
No experience, very few photos, no connections yet, but somebody please pay me...
Model
IDiivil
Posts: 4615
Los Angeles, California, US
Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
Leaving those prima donnas alone and work with some one else. The OP put together a great list but who cares. She her solutions are no real solutions.
The models who feel they are above it all aren't worth paying or shooting. That's why I have "Write more models" ...
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 30129
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
and
Some Models understand that some photographers work is crap and could actually hurt their image and portfolio
Model
P I X I E
Posts: 35440
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Model
IDiivil
Posts: 4615
Los Angeles, California, US
Garry k wrote:
and
Some Models understand that some photographers work is crap and could actually hurt their image and portfolio That's #1 I just wanted to work it in a less inflammatory manner... crap is, after all, a completely subjective opinion.
Photographer
WIP
Posts: 15973
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom
1-13 works both ways.
14. Models that are too short.
Photographer
Gary Samson
Posts: 175
Manchester, New Hampshire, US
P I X I E wrote:
This rocks. +1
Photographer
R.EYE.R
Posts: 3436
Tokyo, Tokyo, Japan
c_h_r_i_s wrote:
1-13 works both ways. +1
Photographer
In Balance Photography
Posts: 3378
Boston, Massachusetts, US
One thing I've noticed with me about "getting better" as a way to attract more trade work is that as I get better I also get more particular about who I want to shoot with.
So, in fact, it's even harder than ever to find trade work.
Maybe "be less particular" is a strategy as well.
Photographer
zaxpix
Posts: 1988
New Brunswick, New Jersey, US
IDiivil wrote:
Hi, everyone. I've been seeing a lot of "Why won't models trade with me?" threads the last couple days. Here's some information I've put together to hopefully clarify the situation and offer solutions for you guys...
.
... I hope this helps give you guys ideas on why the model(s) you are writing are turning down trade and what you can do to change your situation Nice list, but you're preaching to the choir.
The people who need to be reading this are, more than likely, not here in the forums, so the threads about, "Why won't models trade with me?" will surely continue.
One last point; This is a list compiled from the perspective of a model who seems to have her act very much together. Most of the photographers who start those threads don't. Nor do the models they ask.
Thank you,
Z.
Model
Evie Wolfe
Posts: 1201
Nottingham, England, United Kingdom
This is really good! Great thread - very useful I have another one for you - your reference check came back with negative reports.
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25319
Bath, England, United Kingdom
Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
Leaving those prima donnas alone and work with some one else. The OP put together a great list but who cares. She her solutions are no real solutions.
The models who feel they are above it all aren't worth paying or shooting. Are you saying that any model who refuses to trade with you is a 'prima donna'?
No need to get so emotional about it - there are 1000 new models signing up with agencies and sites like this every minute!
NEXT!
Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com
Photographer
New Art Photo
Posts: 701
Los Angeles, California, US
Photographer
Risen Phoenix Photo
Posts: 3779
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US
IDiivil wrote:
That's why I have "Write more models" ... I agree... Unfortunately I wrote more down but this posted
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25319
Bath, England, United Kingdom
New Art Photo wrote:
With extremely rare exceptions I find it hard to take models aesthetic judgements seriously. Did you read the OP's point about models being put off by what they see photographers posting in the forums?
Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com
Model
Babalon Salome
Posts: 3499
Hamburg, Hamburg, Germany
New Art Photo wrote:
How can I say this without setting off a firestorm...All of your reasons make sense, but with extremely rare exceptions I find it hard to take models aesthetic judgements seriously. Yes, because there are no models who also have a background in art/sarcasm
I have picked out more than half of the images in my port myself, including my avatar. Feel free to message me and let me know which ones represent the photographer in a bad way./threadjack
Back on topic - good idea for a thread, neat list!
Photographer
New Art Photo
Posts: 701
Los Angeles, California, US
Photographer
Marin Photo NYC
Posts: 7348
New York, New York, US
Some models assume too much as well, based on images in your port. I have a few nudes, not tons and they think you want them nude too. So, they don't respond and or just say no before you even get a chance to ask or respond. Which is fine by me but it's childish...
Model
Babalon Salome
Posts: 3499
Hamburg, Hamburg, Germany
New Art Photo wrote:
I'm an old guy, and I have the ego of an Artist--that's my only excuse.
They can get back to me after they've spent 30 years thinking about Art and culture. lol
This isn't the Critique forum, so I won't say any more.
Photographer
Risen Phoenix Photo
Posts: 3779
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US
That Italian Guy wrote:
Are you saying that any model who refuses to trade with you is a 'prima donna'?
No need to get so emotional about it - there are 1000 new models signing up with agencies and sites like this every minute!
NEXT!
Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com Yes and no.... To the prima donna question.
I work with a team of models.
I don't over reach to a model who is above my level.
I work hard to improve my photography,
Stefano you are a amazing photographer with a wonderful port. How many models do you pay in relation to the trade work you do. Sure you pay the model if the client is paying, but I am sure you rarely fork over the dollars for your personal stuff.
What I tried to say that didn't post is ...the sure fire way to have models say yes, is to improve your skills as a photographer.
There is a lot of crap photography on MM from guys that say they are professionals. Those guys are always going to struggle
1.Forget the costumes and themes and learn to see light, learn studio lighting suitable for the genre
2. Forget stupid Photoshop applications and learn how to color balance
3. Forget all the vag shots, and take beautiful images that models want in their portfolios.
When the photographer gets better the models that want to work with that photographer gets better.
Look since I fell on hard times I had no problem paying models. I live off $400 per month there just isn't any money to pay models. I have to want models who will work with me. For them to want to work with me I have to have the kind of work that just love.
Luckily I have plenty of models who are happy to oblige
Photographer
New Art Photo
Posts: 701
Los Angeles, California, US
Model
IDiivil
Posts: 4615
Los Angeles, California, US
New Art Photo wrote:
This is why I wasn't cut out for Fashion.
I actually don't like it when girls "model"--it messes up my ability to get good photos of them. I just want them to be themselves so I can get a good portrait.
Fashion photography is not about psychological insight-- it's about making the clothes look good or conveying some kind desirable social status. I don't believe I am a fashion model.
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25319
Bath, England, United Kingdom
Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
Stefano you are a amazing photographer with a wonderful port. How many models do you pay in relation to the trade work you do. Sure you pay the model if the client is paying, but I am sure you rarely fork over the dollars for your personal stuff. I'm lucky to be able to say that I've never had to pay a model for testing.
A few have refused to trade with me for whatever reason, and I often leave tags offering to trade which aren't reciprocated and hence go nowhere, but I don't regard models who don't want to trade with me as prima donnas!
I just assume they're blind
/jk
Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 33355
Dearborn, Michigan, US
IDiivil wrote:
I don't believe I am a fashion model. I agree.
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 33355
Dearborn, Michigan, US
This thread is very informative.
Model
P I X I E
Posts: 35440
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
New Art Photo wrote:
I'm an old guy, and I have the ego of an Artist--that's my only excuse.
They can get back to me after they've spent 30 years thinking about Art and culture. It doesn't matter how many years of experience you have. It's all about what you do with that experience.
That's all I will say for the moment since this is not the Critique forum.
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 10856
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
That Italian Guy wrote:
I offer cookies... does that help?
Just my $0.02
Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com Only if they are home baked, and contain chocolate.
Photographer
R.EYE.R
Posts: 3436
Tokyo, Tokyo, Japan
IDiivil Thank you for taking your time (on behalf of those who read these threads.. ). You are straight to the point. Those with half a brain will read and absorb this, those who aren't will keep posting the threads you addressed. There is one more thing to it: human selfishness. Everybody wants instant gratification. Statement as "TFP with only exceptional photographers/models" would pretty be self explanatory = "if you are good I want you to work for me for free". But nobody wants to invest time in helping others improve, except select few. There is a hit and miss - you never know if the person is yet another GWC or he/she is genuinely interested in building a portfolio, and so people are afraid to trust each other. You can see numerous post from people supposedly heading creative boheme being victims of their fears - constantly asking others what they should or should not do, whether the choices they make are right. Just my 0.02¥ Otsukaressssssssssss....
Photographer
WIP
Posts: 15973
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom
"Why Do Models Refuse Trading w/ Me?" because I'm s c a r y.
One model drank 3/4 bottle of wine outside the studio before she came in she was so scared and nervous.... I drank what was left.
Boot camp for models, Gunnery Sergeant Chris Highway.
Model
P I X I E
Posts: 35440
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Attitude in the Model forum is also a factor.
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 10856
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
And this thread will likely not be read by the people who need to.
Model
Koryn
Posts: 39496
Boston, Massachusetts, US
R.EYE.R wrote:
IDiivil
Thank you for taking your time (on behalf of those who read these threads..).
You are straight to the point.
Those with half a brain will read and absorb this, those who aren't will keep posting the threads you addressed.
There is one more thing to it: human selfishness.
Everybody wants instant gratification. Statement as "TFP with only exceptional photographers/models" would pretty be self explanatory = "if you are good I want you to work for me for free".
But nobody wants to invest time in helping others improve, except select few.
There is a hit and miss - you never know if the person is yet another GWC or he/she is genuinely interested in building a portfolio, and so people are afraid to trust each other. You can see numerous post from people supposedly heading creative boheme being victims of their fears - constantly asking others what they should or should not do, whether the choices they make are right.
Just my 0.02¥
Otsukaressssssssssss.... Time is not the only immediate investment one has to make for trades. My AVERAGE commute for TFP is a five hour roundtrip car ride. With the cost of gas and tolls, just the commute can cost me $100.
like most people, I cannot afford to invest $100 in making someone's portfolio better, if it will give me nothing useful. I don't have that kind of money. It's not a matter of "wanting to" or not wanting to. Doing trade work with people who do not have something valuable to offer me in return - might as well just pull out my checkbook, write them a $100 check and drop it in the mail, because that's essentially what you're doing.
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