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Escort Language part 2
Models, does this say "I don't like escorts" without being too creepy? "Model Safety: I encourage all models to fully investigate photographers before working with them. Check out their professional web site. Check out their Facebook business page. Contact the dozens of other models who have worked with the photographer and ask them what they think. Trust your gut. Ugh...here goes...for those of you who are still scared and want to bring an escort, I strongly advise against it. Escorts sound like a great idea, but they ruin the flow of creativity. I won't go into it all here, but I've had bad experiences and ruined shoots because of them. Dealing with the escort distracts me from doing my work, and distracts the model from doing their work. If you have a special case, then please contact me before the session to discuss bringing other people with you." EDIT: After the insights gained in this thread, I have changed my language to-- I'm not a fan of escorts and will elaborate upon this if you need me to. If you want a friend to drive you here, make sure everything's OK, then leave why we shoot, I'm fine with that. I prefer to shoot in an atmosphere where the model and photographer trust each other. Oct 21 14 05:05 am Link Ok, we all saw that outrageous post in favor of escorts. Now, on to my real point. I don't like escorts. They tend to get in the way, along with the fact that I don't want to work with somebody who is afraid on one level or another to work with me. I know, people will disagree with me, but I really don't care. I don't allow escorts, and that's it. I have my reasons, enough bad experiences to justify my point of view. Don't like my pov? That's fine, you do you shoots, I'll do mine. Oct 21 14 05:28 am Link I had removed all escort language, and everything had been great, but I then had one gal who brought her boyfriend's sister. First thing they told me was how they were both armed with mace and were really nervous. The sister then wandered around in and out during the whole session. It sucked. Made me really uncomfortable. I don't think anything was stolen, but I did have to pick up lots of cigarette butts in front of my door. I had an 18 year old scheduled for this Thursday. She contacted me last night wanting to bring an escort. Since she was so young, I said "if it's a female cheerleader, sure, but if it's a jealous boyfriend here to be a security guard, no way." She was stuck on it being her male friend, who she said is also a photographer (SO I GET TO TEACH WHILE I SHOOT AS WELL!). I told her that we'd have to cancel then. Oct 21 14 05:37 am Link As a photographer, I totally get not having the escort participate in the shoot but calling the fact that a model wants an escort when meeting an unknown person unprofessional is way overboard. Totally aside from your own professional credentials there may be other issues like unreliable cars, travel through bad parts of town, or minors being involved. Oct 21 14 05:43 am Link Btfineart wrote: OK, I'll remove that part. Oct 21 14 06:02 am Link I think you're damned if you do include the language and damned if you don't but then try to discourage an escort later. I think you hit the nail on the head when you stated stop working with the inexperienced, though I've some profiles of folks with lots of experience that contain language "I bring an escort to every shoot, non-negotiable, if you don't like that you must be a serial rapist or worse". So whatever you do is going to be wrong for a certain number of folks and OK with another group. Bottom line I like your language but I'm not a model and don't presume to speak on their behalf. Oct 21 14 07:05 am Link FWIW, here's my profile language on the subject: " Many models, especially inexperienced ones, expect to bring an escort to their shoots. Unfortunately, I only allow escorts if they are bona fide caregivers. This is partly because my studio is small, with no room for extra bodies, partly because I have no way to perform a due diligence on the escort, thereby placing myself potentially at risk, but mostly because I feel that bringing an escort to a dangerous place only puts both the model and the escort in a dangerous situation. It does nothing to protect the model, so it’s much better to do your due diligence, check references and if you are not completely certain that the venue is safe, simply don’t shoot there or with that person. I will not shoot with anyone who I feel is afraid to shoot with me. This doesn’t mean that you can’t have someone drop you off, size me and the location up and come back to pick you up after the shoot. But in between, they’ll have to find something else to do and someplace else to do it. I do invite you to contact any of the models I’ve worked with (most of them are here on MM) and ask them what their experience working with me was like." which has worked for me for several years. I suppose not shooting with inexperienced models might help alleviate the problem but how do you know the level of their experience/inexperience without at least interviewing them and resolving the issue . I've had extremely experienced models flake and insist on escorts, too. I think we just have to write it off as one of the risks of doing business in a somewhat unbusiness-like business. All IMHO as always, of course. Oct 21 14 07:11 am Link I just had a thought, kind of wondering how easy I was to find on Google. I typed in my first name [no last name, no name of my company], photographer, and city and got a full page of Google results pointing to my site, my blog, my facebook, forums I've been on, articles about me, etc. Sheesh. It's like typing in the local supermarket name, finding several pages of hits, then still wondering if they're legit? Should I go in without an armed escort? I'm ranting. Sorry. Ego gets in the way sometimes. For some reason, I think that my photos, 25 years of experience, and a web trail that goes on forever establishes legitimacy. Rant over. Back to my paid work. Oct 21 14 07:16 am Link Rays Fine Art wrote: I know! Last week I had an awesome session with a gal that only had 4 photos in her MM port. No escort, no problems, all was cool. Oct 21 14 07:19 am Link Rays Fine Art wrote: How about this variation: Oct 21 14 07:23 am Link Muskopf Photography wrote: At least you stuck to your guns on #2 but on Model 1, you were a doormat. The instant the word "mace" came up I would have asked them both to leave. They were nervous which means your model was nervous and that right there would have ended the shoot. You also could have asked the "escort" to wait in the car. Sorry, but you handled that poorly. Oct 21 14 07:59 am Link That whole escort thing is a can of worms. I generally don't shoot with models that insist on escorts but I have had a few that come with an escort, we do introductions then the escort says call me when you are finishing and I will pick you up. That seems to work best for me. I just find having a third wheel is a drag on creativity. I think part of the thing I like is getting to talk to the model and working out things to try and do with just them. When someone else is involved it somehow breaks that interaction and draws the models concentration away from the shoot. Creativity suffers. Another thing that I don't like. I used a studio in LA several times and the owner was super cool. She was around but not involved, sometimes even left to run errands and let us do our thing. Then she became partners with another person and that person "lurked" for lack of a better word. Even if I tried to move a chair two feet or change colors on the seamless paper they were there "helping". If I asked the model a question like "what is North Hollywood like?" the partner would start answering from behind a door or something. It just seemed creepy and now I don't use that studio anymore. Still a great scene to shoot in but the lurking sort of creeped me out and broke my concentration. Oct 21 14 08:20 am Link While you are absolutely right.........I simply encourage anyone who is apprehensive, to visit with us before we schedule a shoot, and get to know us, look at what we do, and bring their escort at that time. We have no problem with bringing an escort to an interview, until the model gets familiar with us. I never work with models outside my immediate area, unless someone specifically inquires from outside the area, and they are coming through my area. I want to get to know the model, and I want to be able to work with the model more than once. You don't get great images, unless you have some working experience with a model and know what their strengths and weaknesses are. I agree, that "escorts", "managers", and all of that, used by internet models are nothing but boyfriends living off what the model earns. Having them on set, is a hindrance, and they affect how the model works.......there is total truth to that. It is also true that anyone who accompanies the model, can influence their performance, sometimes negatively, and sometimes positively, including a parent, or a girlfriend. People carry attitudes, and those get in the way more often than not. On the other hand, the best way, is to work with people who are experienced enough to know, who is professional, and who is NOT! If they aren't experienced, then the interview is very beneficial, and there should be someone on set, from the photographer, preferably a woman........wives are fine, if they don't get jealous........who will not only be at the interview, but will also be at the shoot to help the model, and make her experience more comfortable and pleasant. An MUA, or stylist, will also work, if they stay the entire shoot. A female photo assistant, is also a good option. Your sister, or other relative, can work just fine, as well. It is all about the model knowing there is another female going to be there, to act as a helper to her, and make sure that everyone's conduct is proper, while supporting what you are doing photographically. Almost every photographer, who has ever worked with help, knows that makes their jobs easier, in the first place. When doing commercial shoots, there are normally a lot of professionals on the shoot, both in the dressing room, and on set. While you don't have the budget for all of that, on personal projects, you should be able to have at least one other person on set. Hopefully, the model will have some kind of skills with doing her own make up and hair, in that situation. Indeed, if you can get that done before they arrive, the better. Oct 21 14 08:38 am Link State your policy if you feel it necessary, but drop the white knight aspect of trying to "educate" models how they should perform their due diligence and in the process denigrate those of us who try to do good work, but are not professional photographers with a web presence. I am perfectly happy to have prospective models contact ANYONE I have worked with, and I will readily share my real name with them privately. Most models use stage names for a reason, and some of us have other careers for our primary (or only) income that we want/need to keep segregated. I am not a big fan of Facebook due to their privacy policies and data harvesting. There is no need to throw ethical hobbyist photographers (who make up probably the majority of photographers on this site) under the bus just to help a model avoid the occasional riff raff. They can put on their big girl panties and figure it out without your help. Oct 21 14 08:40 am Link Eye of the World wrote: +1. Oct 21 14 09:04 am Link 
Photographer Posts: 4288 Amundsen-Scott - permanent station of the US, Unclaimed Sector, Antarctica Muskopf Photography wrote: I honestly don't know how I would ever continue to shoot with someone like this. After hearing that, the session would have ended immediately. Oct 21 14 09:13 am Link Muskopf Photography wrote: It's a little long-winded and unnecessary imo. I just say: Oct 21 14 09:36 am Link Eye of the World wrote: Really??? Oct 21 14 09:51 am Link "escorts are a distraction and I do not allow them, I do not shoot individuals that are uncomfortable being photographed, because it shows in the photographs. I think it best you find someone that you are more comfortable with and better suits you" Oct 21 14 10:13 am Link Whenever I have model that is apprehensive about me I offer to let her talk to the girl in the pit my basement. Oct 21 14 04:10 pm Link Rays Fine Art wrote: This is perfect. It's not rude, it's not creepy and it doesn't make me feel weird that you don't want an escort there. If anything, it makes the reader feel bad about being afraid to shoot with you, which gains trust in a way. And it reminds the model it's their responsibility to stay safe instead criminalizing the person who wants to help their career. Oct 21 14 06:47 pm Link Rockabella wrote: +1 Oct 21 14 07:02 pm Link My two cents, I shoot implied and nude models more often than not these days and I practically insist any model I have never worked with to bring an escort, and probably always will no matter how 'established' I may become. I do it to keep everything above board, leaving no chance I'll be accused of doing something improper. My only stipulation is clearly stated to the model, if they are not supportive or if they are interfering with the shoot, then we have a problem. To date I've had great experiences, and I hope to keep that 'the norm' for the future too. Oct 21 14 08:20 pm Link I simply have no desire to work with a model who feels the need to have an escort. To me photography is model + photographer = art model + photographer + body guard = crap every time And I see no reason to explain myself to them 'cause obviously they don't get it. Oct 21 14 08:39 pm Link SPS4 Photography wrote: interesting pov,it works for you,that's great.Only question I would have is if a model wanted to accuse a photographer of acting inappropriate or improper,having an escort present would unlikey be in the photographer's favour.People can or will,say whatever they like,and best thing a photographer can do is to "not" act inappropriately...never!Two against one in any altercation or questionable situation,would or could fabricate a story or lie that you'd be defenceless to.I just don't really see the logic here, but again,you are comfortable with an escort present,so the "why" of it doesn't really matter.If it aint broken...don't fix it! It's different for everyone,right! Oct 21 14 08:44 pm Link SPS4 Photography wrote: I have worked with many nude models. None of them have required an escort. Oct 21 14 09:44 pm Link Ah, yes the escort thread. Is this number 22,000? Ok, For me escorts not permitted. Drivers not a problem. Parent of an underage model is a must. Now for a flipside story. Friends are doing a dance shoot, and I am helping. The one young dancer turns up with escort, her mother. Dancer was of age, but young. Mother is going to just check things out and then leave. Mom ends up asking if it is ok to stay. Since we had not even noticed her, friends say ok. Shortly into the shoot mom starts making suggestions to daughter as to what are some of her strongest moves. "You can do that better, kick a little higher". Then mom starts fixing hair, and styling. Ok, seems to be working. Come to find out mom used to be a choreographer and stylist in Vegas. Still works as stylist and is only up for a short visit in Victoria. I think my friends came out ahead on the deal. Although I will admit mom took things in a different direction then the friends planned, and in my opinion in a better and more interesting direction. Pushed the young dancer to stretch her limits. Unfortunately because it was not same old/same old, the results were not exactly what the friends could deal with...but that is another thread. I was itching to shoot mom's ideas, but when I help I do not bring a camera. Oct 21 14 10:29 pm Link waynes world pics wrote: +1. Oct 22 14 08:12 am Link It's a space concern for me. If the studio I'm working in has a seemingly separate area then I really don't care, unless the escort starts interfering, but space in NYC is a hot commodity and usually I'll stand for the escort to come in, scope it out then leave after the model and I do a recap of what's expected and come back when we're finished. If the model is uncomfortable and insists that the escort stays then, for a TF, I don't see the point in continuing the shoot. Her expression WILL convey that discomfort and it's not worth it. Oct 22 14 09:36 am Link Did only one model respond? Oct 22 14 10:14 am Link for my part i allow others on-set (the more the merrier) but if i didn't i think i would just say something like "my sets are closed (just me and the model and MUA if applicable) but you are welcome to have someone drive you, say hi and then head to starbucks". as soon as you start talking about things like trust i just feel like it's headed the wrong direction. you won't change anyone's mind about on-set escorts. you just set your policy and see what models will accept your terms. or don't even mention in the profile and just deal with it once you are talking with an interested model. but don't forget to mention it during the pre-shoot discussion. Oct 22 14 11:20 am Link Any opinions on whether us "no escort" folks are still the majority? I've seen several self-proclaimed model advisors and photographers presenting Model Safety seminars in my part of the country who are proclaiming Escorts as the only sure way to be safe and I see a growing number of photogs advertising Escorts Welcome, which ads negative connotations to my policy. I'm not a bigshot who has models standing in line around the block wanting to shoot with me. My trade requests have increased much more than say 2 years ago, but I still have to occasionally allow a next-room escort to get that model now and then. Oct 22 14 11:45 am Link at first we shot out of our house and but then leased a studio downtown for a few years. once we got the studio the number of on-set escorts declined significantly. i've also had a few models who asked if i accepted on-set escorts (i do) and then said it was just a test question and they didn't actually need to bring one. to me it all comes down to whether you can get the models you need with the policies you have in place. if you can then it's all good. seems like the newbie models are more likely concerned about on-set escorts than the experienced ones. i still remember one post from a model who said she was sexually harassed throughout a shoot and then she added that her boyfriend on-set escort was there the whole time but didn't do anything. but i read a post today that said adulthood doesn't really begin until age 24. so if one thinks of those under 24 as "just kids" then perhaps some things start to make more sense. BestOfYou wrote: Oct 22 14 12:10 pm Link The first shoot, you may bring an escort. should there, be a second shoot... i request that.. no one is to accompany ,you to the shoot.. Oct 22 14 12:19 pm Link I list my models on my profile page, not only to recognize them, but also to make them easily available to anyone, to check my credibility, and I encourage it. That is one of the duties of all models - due diligence. (An escort is not a substitute for that.) The vast majority have shot one-on-one with me, many of them multiple times, and a number I have driven to & from shoots. All are alive & well & most want to shoot again! If, after properly checking me out, a new model is still too scared to shoot with me, without an "escort", then we are not a match, and they are also likely not a match for modeling. Shooting with someone that nervous & insecure, will not produce good images, or a good vibe for a shoot. I won't deal with someone who could so easily overreact or misunderstand the simplest of statements/movements. Next! Find someone else. Oct 22 14 05:35 pm Link SPS4 Photography wrote: I shoot nudes 95% of the time in recent years, & I don't do escorts. Oct 22 14 06:26 pm Link ontherocks wrote: TRUST vs. FEAR Oct 23 14 05:43 am Link Modeling Tip: Is it ok to take a friend to a photo shoot? I sometimes share this video with clients see video below https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcfGmQXnydI Oct 23 14 10:53 am Link TIMELESS wrote: That video contains the kind of information that should put an end to these types of threads forever, but as we all know, drama and agenda over rides rational advice… Oct 23 14 11:04 am Link TIMELESS wrote: Funny, the last 3 1/2 minutes were all that "white knight" stuff I got criticized for earlier. Oct 23 14 11:35 am Link |
