Paul Brecht wrote:
Outlaw,

I'm not attacking you or your work in any way. Let me put it to you like this though...

In your example, you say about getting a "sunday school award from church". Ok, that's credible & acceptable within the church, but, now, let's say that you get an award from Anton Leve's Satanic Society, saying you're an outstanding sunday school teacher. How well would that be accepted in your church ???

Prolly not very well, right ???  (I'd hope not)  ...

In the same way, the outfit that awards these certificates is not credible in any way amongst photographic communities/societies. This is not a bad reflection on you as a person or a photographer, but it isn't a good one either as far as a group of peers &/or professional organizations/societies go...

Sorry, but I'd imagine that if everyone else seems wrong, you might need to look within...

Paul

I liked your post .... thanks for it...

However, ISP and ILP are not cult. It is a place for Amateurs to go to start building a market for their work.  If you start as an amateur, you don't just throw away your accomplishments when you go pro.  You show the awards so people know why you went pro.

These are not evil organizations.  They did no harm to me in any way.  Nor would they harm anyone else who took the time to read and just said, Thanks for the Award.  It is greed and vanity of the recipients that gave ISP and ILP a bad name. It is not that ISP or ILP did anything wrong. All they did was mail me awards for my work.  I could care less if SAG doesn't like ISP.  I am not playing politics ... this society doesn't like that one .. tough ... I could care less .. but it has no bearing on the plain simple fact .. I did receive the awards.  I am not ashamed of them.  I am not scamming anyone.

I am ashamed of people who want to call me a scammer just because I opened my postal mail and found something that would help me market my work.

God Bless,
Outlaw

FaceReality wrote:

Have you ever seen the paper award certificates?

You keep harping on paying... I didn't pay.  You imply I did.  You are wrong, so now I ask you for your PROOF that I paid..... post it, or admit, you never got one, are jealous, are misinformed, and shouldn't be offering uninformed opinion to mislead other people.

In essence you are angry because of my marketing skills.  I studied the mail, the award, and turned it to something good.  It was free publicity .... and good if people simply actually check into it.  These organizations help a lot of people get started.

God Bless,
Outlaw

Outlaw Photography wrote:
In essence you are angry because of my marketing skills.

I'm curious - how is it good marketing skills to be promoting an "award" that is bringing you nothing but ridicule? Do you honestly think that this is helping your reputation? You've been told, time and again, that everyone who submits a picture "wins" the free paper award. You got it, too. Free. No cost. No argument there. But, again, everyone wins that, as they're hoping that you'll buy the book and award and trip to their party.

Touting this award simply states, "I've bought-into the scam."

Word spreads in our little industry. You've already done yourself more harm in the past week through your defense of this single issue than you probably imagine.

And yet you continue. That doesn't speak to me of the methods of someone who is well-versed in good marketing.

But hey, what do I know about business?

James Waynauskas wrote:
During my beginning photo class in community college I put a couple photos up on picture.com...  And I got something in the mail saying I won an award... for both of them actually... One was a decent photo... but nothing great... one was pretty terrible.  If I remember correctly they did send a little certificate each time saying I win and gave me an option of buying a book they were both being published in and purchasing a trip to an awards ceremony... And from talking to other photographers that have put other photos on there... they won as well... I believe anyone that puts a photo up wins... To figure it out I guess everyone on on here could upload a throw away photo and see if the certificates come in... But I'm pretty sure of it already from past experience of mine and others... Also with poetry.com if you upload a poem you'll  get an an award in the mail from the international library of poetry and they will try to sell you things related to that...

I have three photos on picture.com ... all taken years ago.  Two sell like hot cakes. I didn't get an award on the third one.  And like you, I didn't buy anything.

You are right in what you say .... except the part where every photo gets an award... and I took the time to research, test them, and prove all this before I made mention of my awards on line. The third one got on award.  It also sells like hot cakes.

One just has to know how to work with these things. It is called Advertising, Marketing, Promotion.

And the big thing is, I don't see how my marketing/advertising/promotion has anything to do with others here on MM.  It is my plan. Well thought out.  Everything can be proven as legal, just as I stated it. There is no misrepresentation on my part in any way.

Public perception is simply wrong.  It is based on those who bought trophies and spent money out of their own greed and vanity. The trophies are their cash cow .. you can get them at a trophy shop locally for about $30.  One would have to be pretty niave to spent $169 for the same thing. 

In essence, I used their system for what could benefit me, but, it didn't benefit them in any way. Well, possibly a benefit as people out here now realize the truth instead of the public perception based on the greedy and vain. Their own greed and vanity got them to spend money.

God Bless,
Outlaw

SayCheeZ! wrote:
Hey!!!

I just got an message from Nigeria informing them that I just won the lottery!!!

They want me to send them $2,500 so that I can collect my award of One Million Dollars!!!

I don't think I'm going to send them the fee, simply knowing that I'm now an instant Millionaire will be good enough for me.  After all, I've got a certificate that says so.  Who needs the actual prize???

Now excuse me while I go to the printing company.  My resume's have to be reprinted to show that I'm now a lottery millionaire!

Holy shit! Congratulations! I got one of those too! What are the chances?!

Think of all of the over-priced coffee table books full of our own crappy photographs we are going to be able to afford now!

BeccaAnnPhotoGal wrote:
All I have to say is this: Picture.com is owned and operated by the same people that run Poetry.com. Both are scams. Anyone with any type of photo can submit to picture.com and get an award. I could prove the point if I wanted to, and hand my daughter my camera, let her take a photo of a bug or the dog, and it would get an award from those people...and my daughter is 5, so that doesn't say much....

Exactly, I fell for it...and bought the coffee table book for like $80, but i was really new at photography thing...and thought it was cool to get my photo "published", like they said.....which I never ever saw it in book stores, like they said. And the photos in there.....my 1 yr old couldve gotten a photo submitted to it. Then the emails comes with  more crap to buy, etc, etc. My question is...where's the prize money?

swhnyc wrote:
Love this thread.  Fine holiday fun.

Doesn't matter if the trophy and the certificate are authentic or not, though... if your portfolio isn't any good, a certificate won't make it look better or earn you any more business from clients unless they're missing eyes.  If your port is fabulous and you market it well, the lack of a certificate or trophy won't hinder your business from anybody either.

Am I wrong?  Seems like lots of chest-thumping.

I didn't start this for chest thumping.  In fact, fame or notariety is my biggest enemy. Most my work is for private firms, or tourism.  It ruins my work to have people know who I am as they are always sure to get in the picture by the lake and ruin it.

My work with models is to train them, in business, marketing, contracts so they can have careers.  I spent my life building businesses and careers for others.  Then I work in my projects with the models I train, casting them where they fit.  The example of taking these awards and using them as a positive marketing tool, shows my experience and skills in business. 

My fabulous work isn't on line as it is private.  The client sees it and does as he/she wants with it.

My port fits my business model to a tee.  Not all modeling is about fame. Some of us do our work for the money, some for the art. Being in 2500 tourist magazines is better exposure than one men's magazine.  More people see you.

But, being called a scammer?  Now that hurts business, is a direct accusation, and is provably not true.

Receiving awards is not an evil thing, is not a scam.  Now if someone wants attack ISP or ILP ... go for it ... I am not a member .. I am just a recipient of an award.

God bless,
Outlaw

Outlaw Photography wrote:
I didn't start this for chest thumping.  In fact, fame or notariety is my biggest enemy. Most my work is for private firms, or tourism.  It ruins my work to have people know who I am as they are always sure to get in the picture by the lake and ruin it.

the bastards!

and just for the record I wanted to be one of the first to congratulate you on being "One of the Top Photographers of 2007". Yes sir, you still got it you ol' so and so.

How do I sign up for one of your seminars?

Outlaw Photography wrote:
What is lacking most, and I say this alot out here .. is actual business knowledge and experience. Those who have done, sharing with those who haven't.

This, of course, is the height of irony. You clearly don't know with whom you're sparring, kid.

Christopher Ambler wrote:
Okay, I'm done here. Sir, you are delusional, plain and simple. Please enjoy your "award" and know that nobody here is actually taking you seriously.

That is good .. with the lack of business experience exhibited out here ... you show clearly why Top Agents aren't here.

Even with proof, complete, eye witness accounts, you are so set in your OPINIONS, that even facts won't open your eyes.

And that is why I take so few of you seriously ... you have a closed mind... closed to anything you don't want to be true.

God Bless,
Outlaw

Christopher Ambler wrote:

This, of course, is the height of irony. You clearly don't know with whom you're sparring, kid.

I am not sparring with anyone. I am making facts known and defending myself against people who are misrepresenting facts .. I think they are called "scammers".

God Bless,
Outlaw

Sayer Photography wrote:

the bastards!

and just for the record I wanted to be one of the first to congratulate you on being "One of the Top Photographers of 2007". Yes sir, you still got it you ol' so and so.

How do I sign up for one of your seminars?

I haven't seen that award .. where did it come from?  If I had got it, it would be on line.

God Bless,
Outlaw

Outlaw Photography wrote:
I didn't start this for chest thumping.  In fact, fame or notariety is my biggest enemy. Most my work is for private firms, or tourism.  It ruins my work to have people know who I am as they are always sure to get in the picture by the lake and ruin it.

My work with models is to train them, in business, marketing, contracts so they can have careers.  I spent my life building businesses and careers for others.  Then I work in my projects with the models I train, casting them where they fit.  The example of taking these awards and using them as a positive marketing tool, shows my experience and skills in business. 

My fabulous work isn't on line as it is private.  The client sees it and does as he/she wants with it.

Being in 2500 tourist magazines is better exposure than one men's magazine.

Receiving awards is not an evil thing, is not a scam.  Now if someone wants attack ISP or ILP ... go for it ... I am not a member .. I am just a recipient of an award.

God bless,
Outlaw

I think the problem people are having is that Outlaw makes statements that aren't specific enough to be looked into.

If you have fabulous work that is private, you should be able to make public (other) fabulous work to help promote your business.

I wasn't aware that there were even 2500 tourist magazines. If I could consistently publish in 100 tourist magazines, I'd be super happy.

It is agreed by everyone, including Outlaw, that the ISP award is given to everyone and, therefore, without value. Using such an award to promote your business isn't even the "glass is half full" situation. It is a blatant attempt to misquide potential customers that don't know about ISP into thinking the award has value.

That last comment can be ignored if you truly believe the award is something, but your statements show you don't.

Please give titles of the many magazines you have published.

My goodness, I could go on and on, but I'll let other people do that,

Evan

Outlaw Photography wrote:
I didn't start this for chest thumping.  In fact, fame or notariety is my biggest enemy. Most my work is for private firms, or tourism.  It ruins my work to have people know who I am as they are always sure to get in the picture by the lake and ruin it.

My work with models is to train them, in business, marketing, contracts so they can have careers.  I spent my life building businesses and careers for others.  Then I work in my projects with the models I train, casting them where they fit.  The example of taking these awards and using them as a positive marketing tool, shows my experience and skills in business. 

My fabulous work isn't on line as it is private.  The client sees it and does as he/she wants with it.

My port fits my business model to a tee.  Not all modeling is about fame. Some of us do our work for the money, some for the art. Being in 2500 tourist magazines is better exposure than one men's magazine.  More people see you.

But, being called a scammer?  Now that hurts business, is a direct accusation, and is provably not true.

Receiving awards is not an evil thing, is not a scam.  Now if someone wants attack ISP or ILP ... go for it ... I am not a member .. I am just a recipient of an award.

God bless,
Outlaw

Bully for you.

And if this formidable business acumen and much-tauted success of yours have been so kind that they've left you with enough insecurity (not to mention free time) to keep on whipping a dead horse here on a public internet forum to save your otherwise fairly anonymous online reputation from the slings and arrows of people who are casually anonymous themselves, then both business skills and success are obviously overrated.

Outlaw Photography wrote:

I haven't seen that award .. where did it come from?  If I had got it, it would be on line.

God Bless,
Outlaw

There is a picture of that particular award on your website. I didn't put it there. Did you?

Evan

Outlaw Photography wrote:
It was libelously said that my awards are scams on an earlier thread.

Did I miss a thread?

Edit: NVM, I think I found it.

Evan Hiltunen wrote:
Did somebody in the bible address "bearing false witness"?

God Bless,

Evan

And the reason for this thread, is false witness .. scammers misrepresenting the facts about the awards for their own personal agenda's.  There is no misrepresentation in my words.  Those who called me a scammer, are the scammers.

God Bless,
Outlaw

Blue Sky Above wrote:
Seems Vegas slots aren't the only things that get people here and rob 'em blind....

*grabs popcorn and comfy chair*

I thought the same thing  when I saw where the convention was. The first one was Washington DC .... well, the first year I was made aware of them. *LOL*

God Bless,
Outlaw

Outlaw Photography wrote:

And the reason for this thread, is false witness .. scammers misrepresenting the facts about the awards for their own personal agenda's.  There is no misrepresentation in my words.  Those who called me a scammer, are the scammers.

God Bless,
Outlaw

YES, EXACTLY!!!

On a different note:

Outlaw, you should be commended for stepping up and addressing these concerns. Most people would have gone silent.

I, like most people here, are very interested in some specifics of your accomplishments. That would go a long way toward establishing credibility.

Evan

Outlaw Photography wrote:

On more time ... try reading ... calm down and understand this .. I have written it before.

The awards are paper certificates.  You can purchase a trophy if you want to.  The trophy is a trophy, it is not the award. It is to comemorate the paper certificate award for outstanding photography.

I registered for nothing, never went to a convention, but MM 605 was a lecturer.

Simplified .. the trophy is not the award .. the certificate is.

God Bless,
Outlaw

To the OP...I am new to this thread, but curious.

You say that the certificate is the award...right?

So, answer me this...for what did you receive the certificate, "outstanding photography"?

Outlaw Photography wrote:
I have three photos on picture.com ... all taken years ago.  Two sell like hot cakes. I didn't get an award on the third one.  And like you, I didn't buy anything.

You are right in what you say .... except the part where every photo gets an award... and I took the time to research, test them, and prove all this before I made mention of my awards on line. The third one got no award.  It also sells like hot cakes.


God Bless,
Outlaw

What's that you say? They didn't send you an award for all three photos? Did you buy the trophy/book after you recieved the first, or second award? You mean they're not just waiting until their next scam convention and the next edition of their book comes out to make even more money off of you? For someone that claims to know so much about good business practices maybe you should think about it this way...

If I see a commercial for auto insurance on TV and then immediately after that another commercial plays for the same company, but advertises a different form of coverage, how many insurance policies am I going to buy? No, not two batman, just one. But what if that commercial plays three years later? Hmmm, I just might be interested in that new form of coverage, and the subsequent fees in order to switch it over. See what I'm getting at?

Who buys two books because two of their photos are in it? Seems sorta silly when you think about, but then again you would buy two different editions of a book because different photos are in each one.

Or maybe they sent you one award, didn't get a response, and then sent you another one just hoping that maybe they'd get a bite the second time around. Then BAM! they hooked the big fish and they've got a new sucker to scam. Or, they sent you the first one, did get you buy their crap in the first place and were hoping you'd buy more with the second one and gave up when you didn't. Wait, or, you posted all the pics at the same time and they only sent out two awards because sending out any more than that may not have proven to be cost effective in the past.

There are plenty of reasons why you only received two awards for your three photos. The mere notion that it's because a scam industry actually went through your photos and handpicked the better of the three is a bunch of bull. Let's see, pay trained people to only choose the best possible photos they can find and advertise our product to only those photographers, or, pay no one, send out awards to as many people as possible and make buttloads more money? This is advertising and marketing 101, and your claims to knowing good business practices made me giggle a bit inside.

Go find representation if you like, and go after those people that supposedly tarnished your name, but judges will laugh you out of their courtrooms and your lawyer will happily walk to the bank either way with your money, if you insist on further humiliating yourself to all of those people then go for it. That being said, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you, it's got a great view and everything and you alone would have exclusive rights to photograph it. Think you'd be interested?

Outlaw Photography wrote:

I didn't start this for chest thumping.  In fact, fame or notariety is my biggest enemy. Most my work is for private firms, or tourism.  It ruins my work to have people know who I am as they are always sure to get in the picture by the lake and ruin it.

My work with models is to train them, in business, marketing, contracts so they can have careers.  I spent my life building businesses and careers for others.  Then I work in my projects with the models I train, casting them where they fit.  The example of taking these awards and using them as a positive marketing tool, shows my experience and skills in business. 

My fabulous work isn't on line as it is private.  The client sees it and does as he/she wants with it.

My port fits my business model to a tee.  Not all modeling is about fame. Some of us do our work for the money, some for the art. Being in 2500 tourist magazines is better exposure than one men's magazine.  More people see you.

But, being called a scammer?  Now that hurts business, is a direct accusation, and is provably not true.

Receiving awards is not an evil thing, is not a scam.  Now if someone wants attack ISP or ILP ... go for it ... I am not a member .. I am just a recipient of an award.

God bless,
Outlaw

So you do not think that is a scam to display awards given by organizations that are proven scams w/o disclosing this fact to your potential clients?

You can't just pretend you have nothing to do with these people while touting in your website about the importance of these awards. It is naive at best.. dishonest & misleading at worst.

That is what I would call a VERY dishonest business practice. Is this the 'training' that you are providing your models?

My favorite line is "My fabulous work isn't on line as it is private"... I also keep all my published work in French Vogue a secret because it could hurt my other work...lol...If you can create 'fabulous' work for your private clients you should be able to create 'fabulous' work to show in your port... where is it? .. I am really not trying to be mean (as my work is marginal at best) but you are the one talking all the trash and should be able to back it up.

I have no idea is the term 'scammer' applies to you as I am not familiar with the legal requirements for such term .. but you certainly have a problem with honesty.

Bryan Benoit wrote:

So you do not think that is a scam to display awards given by organizations that are proven scams w/o disclosing this fact to your potential clients?

You can't just pretend you have nothing to do with these people while touting in your website about the importance of these awards. It is naive at best.. dishonest & misleading at worst.

That is what I would call a VERY dishonest business practice. Is this the 'training' that you are providing your models?

My favorite line is "My fabulous work isn't on line as it is private"... I also keep all my published work in French Vogue a secret because it could hurt my other work...lol...If you can create 'fabulous' work for your private clients you should be able to create 'fabulous' work to show in your port... where is it? .. I am really not trying to be mean (as my work is marginal at best) but you are the one talking all the trash and should be able to back it up.

I have no idea is the term 'scammer' applies to you as I am not familiar with the legal requirements for such term .. but you certainly have a problem with honesty.

This one is fun .... I you simply didn't read.  I received three awards.  I am not a member of ISP or ILP.  There is nothing misleading about that or dishonest. Telling people I received them is honest.

My business model is not shoot, sell, shoot, sell.  The work I do for models, they pay me for.  I do not put it on line as under contract I can not.  The words PRIVATE seem to have no meaning to people anymore.  It means a transaction between the customer and myself.

No, the problem with honesty is doubt created by people who assume things are true that aren't.  I have stated honestly.  I received these awards.  I did not pay for them. I have photos of trophies with my name on them, but I do not have any in my possession. Anyone who says different is misrepresenting the truth and the facts. Go back and read ....  I have been more than forthcoming with the facts, even putting credentials on line to prove my credibility goes clear to the White House.  Well, with Bush there that doesn't mean much. *LOL*

I am just done trying to explain to people if you got duped and spent a lot of money .. it is your own fault. But, the awards cost nothing, and if you stop and say thank you for the award, and don't participate in the rest of the offerings, you don't get hurt in any way. Except know it alls out here who have never experienced it.  I have been through it several times.  I laugh each time ... thank you for the award ... but I am not gullible to spend the money.

And think about this .. the awards sure get me a lot of views to my work. So they do help me.  What hurts is people misrepresenting facts, based on what they believe happened.  Well, I know what happened. I told you all honestly and upfront.  Just like it says on my web page.... I received these awards. What could be more honest? Saying I didn't receive them would be dishonest. Hiding them would be dishonest and disrespectful.  Yelling scam when I wasn't hurt in any way by ISP or ILP would be dishonest.  And being called a scammer out here reflects the dishonesty of those who are saying I am a scammer. 

I am not ISP or ILP.  Just the recipient of three awards ...

And they are worth a fortune to me, as they have shown me who not to deal with out here on MM.

God Bless,
Outlaw

Evan Hiltunen wrote:
But we really don't know if these awards have helped you get work because we haven't seen any work (outside of your website, which is what people here judge).

So, have these awards gotten you work? If so, maybe they do serve a function .... of some sort.

Evan

They were getting me lots of work until I was injured.  Now I am turning away work until I heal.

God Bless,
Outlaw

FosbreStudios wrote:
These awards you have to buy...they send me emails all the time.....with headline stating "how would u like to get your work and name on this plaque" or "trophy" or whatever they want me to buy.

You are absolutely wrong ...

God Bless,
Outlaw