Damianne wrote:

I don't think it is, I think it's just typically unstable.
You have to be happy before you can make anyone else happy. You have to enjoy taking care of their needs, and they have to enjoy taking care of yours, or resentment is just inevitable.

do you think putting someone else first sometimes means you're not happy?

California Girls Skate wrote:

Hmm. Interesting reply. In other words...

You see duty and loyalty as sadness.

You can't imagine smiling if you chose a life with duty and loyalty.

You see being childish as a way to enjoy a relationship.

How is choosing someone out of selfish desires, choosing someone because they just make you fuckballs happy and you continue to want to be with them because of how awesome they are... how is that childish?
It sounds awesome.
So far, from living that way, it's been really awesome.

I would hate being someone's duty. I would hate feeling like they are forced to be with me and without that need to be loyal and dutiful, if they were selfish and went for what they want (childishly?) they would choose someone else.
That sounds miserable.
I want to be someone's selfish decision. I don't know why you wouldn't want to be. I want to be someone's candy, not their green beans, and it takes work to continue to grow and deserve that selfish choice. You have to keep working to be awesome enough to keep someone that you think is fantastic, and they have to work to keep you. It's not work-free. It's just not honor and duty. I don't think that's childish at all.

Who's approving these choices? Who is your duty to?

Anna Adrielle wrote:

do you think putting someone else first sometimes means you're not happy?

If you were, you'd be putting both of you first.
Order wouldn't be a consideration. It would just be the obvious thing to do.

Damianne wrote:
I am not suggesting unhappiness is always permanent.
I'm suggesting that when you don't want to fix it, and you want to just leave, that's going to make the unhappiness permanent.

You kind of did here:

Damianne wrote:
Sure, but if you're unhappy with the person you're with, that's usually pretty permanent. You can be happy with life in general, sure, but you would definitely be much happier and fulfilled with someone you wanted to be with.

Damianne wrote:
I just got through moving to another country with my boyfriend and both of us hating living there, for over a year. That's really stressful, it makes you hate yourself and the person you're with and just be really miserable. At no point did I think "I want to leave him", and I always wanted to fix it. Since I wanted to put the work in, and he wanted to put the work in, we got through it just fine.

I understand working through problems, I just don't understand forcing yourself to when that's not what you want to do.

If you understand the unhappiness is probably temporary, then you're already looking to a solution and you probably want to stay. I'm confused as to why staying even if that's not what you want to do is some kind of moral good and character strength, because it seems *insane* to me.

No disrespect to you at all.. but your relationship with your boyfriend is not really the same as a marriage. Working through problems with a boyfriend is not the same as working through problems with a spouse.
You probably can not understand the differences because you are not yet ready to be in that kind of relationship... and that's why the concept is so *insane* to you.

Damianne wrote:

If you were, you'd be putting both of you first.
Order wouldn't be a consideration. It would just be the obvious thing to do.

interesting perspective

Jules NYC wrote:
I am all about loyalty. Thing is, being loyal to the wrong person could be a slippery slope into being a doormat the rest of your life.

There are probably a whole mess of folks out there for whom being a doormat *is* happiness.

My experience has been that people don't know what the fuck they really want out of their relationships (or are scared shitless of actually getting what they REALLY want out of a relationship), and spend much of their lives utterly frustrated by that.

JessieLeigh wrote:
No disrespect to you at all.. but your relationship with your boyfriend is not really the same as a marriage. Working through problems with a boyfriend is not the same as working through problems with a spouse.

You probably can not understand the differences because you are not yet ready to be in that kind of relationship... and that's why the concept is so *insane* to you.

this

kickfight wrote:
There are probably a whole mess of folks out there for whom being a doormat *is* happiness.

My experience has been that people don't know what the fuck they really want out of their relationships (or are scared shitless of actually getting what they REALLY want out of a relationship), and spend much of their lives utterly frustrated by that.

I hear you on what you said. For me personally, it is of upmost importance for me to be myself.

Without that acceptance of true self, the relationship will never work. I also believe relationships should be of compromise not of perpetual sacrifice. There are times however, there may be sacrifice in the greater good of the relationship for both parties. If one is selfish, and selfish by nature, then that scenario is quite inequitable.

I love to please, but if a partner never pleases me forget it. Just like that Beatles song, please please me like I please you.

Damianne wrote:
Who is your duty to?

Robert A. Heinlein said it better than I:

"Do not confuse "duty" with what other people expect of you; they are utterly different. Duty is a debt you owe to yourself to fulfill obligations you have assumed voluntarily. Paying that debt can entail anything from years of patient work to instant willingness to die. Difficult it may be, but the reward is self-respect."

Damianne wrote:
I want to be someone's selfish decision. I don't know why you wouldn't want to be. I want to be someone's candy, not their green beans, and it takes work to continue to grow and deserve that selfish choice.

Candy is a temporary sugar rush in terms of nutrition. Green beans, while they don't taste as good, are better for you in the long run.

This is true in a relationship too. What feels good right now, may not be good for you 10 years from now.

I personally find it best to be someone's green beans with some bacon on top.  There is the nutritional value that is so much better for them in the long run.. but also the delicious not-so-good for you topping that keeps things interesting

modeled wrote:
I don't know about you people, but I've noticed this on Facebook on more than 1 occasion recently... I honestly don't understand what it's in reference to.



I guess the only thing I could see that applying to would be a career.  But it seems to fit the theme of this thread.  Am I right or am I right?

It does! I unfortunately usually leave a relationship after many tears are shed. That is not right. I think when you truly love yourself you realize what you deserve :-)

True love is not full of tears.

Damianne wrote:
And honestly, who wants to be with someone that wants to leave you, but just feels like they shouldn't?

I think it depends on a person's personality and maturity level. Your happiness isn't always the priority, crazy as it sounds. The relationship before my current marriage (second marriage) was harmful. I was with someone who didn't appreciate me or treat me the way I deserved. I knew this but didn't leave not because of fear of being alone, or feeling like I failed but because I didn't want HIS feelings to be hurt. Most of my happiness comes from knowing I make others happy, and the thought of hurting someone actually makes me sick to my stomach. My previous marriage lasted 6 yrs and because I held out, hoping that my ex-husband would change.

Now? I know what I want, I know that my happiness is equally if not more important. I still struggle with the people pleasing aspect of it, but luckily I found someone that isn't manipulative or quite simply an asshole.

It's hard to understand unless you understand what drives that person to be that way.

JessieLeigh wrote:

Candy is a temporary sugar rush in terms of nutrition. Green beans, while they don't taste as good, are better for you in the long run.

This is true in a relationship too. What feels good right now, may not be good for you 10 years from now.

I personally find it best to be someone's green beans with some bacon on top.  There is the nutritional value that is so much better for them in the long run.. but also the delicious not-so-good for you topping that keeps things interesting

I get this:)

Most people cheat because they don't have enough candy :-)
Or they don't know what an actualized, mature relationship is all about.

Jules NYC wrote:
This thread is getting interesting :-) I would like to hear more of what people think about the candy versus green-bean analogy:)

I have my thoughts :-)

candy and green beans? is that like that whole milk and cow analogy?

kickfight wrote:
There are probably a whole mess of folks out there for whom being a doormat *is* happiness.

My experience has been that people don't know what the fuck they really want out of their relationships (or are scared shitless of actually getting what they REALLY want out of a relationship), and spend much of their lives utterly frustrated by that.

Jules NYC wrote:
I hear you on what you said. For me personally, it is of upmost importance for me to be myself.

Without that acceptance of true self, the relationship will never work. I also believe relationships should be of compromise not of perpetual sacrifice. There are times however, there may be sacrifice in the greater good of the relationship for both parties. If one is selfish, and selfish by nature, then that scenario is quite inequitable.

I love to please, but if a partner never pleases me forget it. Just like that Beatles song, please please me like I please you.

Yup. And some people are mostly givers and some people are mostly takers, and some people are looking for a balance of give and take. There are plenty of combinations therein to make a match. The issue then becomes, once the match is made, is it built for the long haul? Flexibility is key. Otherwise, the first couple of bumps are going to crack that mofo.

Damianne wrote:
Lols.

Well I guess the interesting part of this is over, and the internet bit begins.

On cue, the Dear John letter to the thread arrives

Jojo West wrote:

I think it depends on a person's personality and maturity level. Your happiness isn't always the priority, crazy as it sounds. The relationship before my current marriage (second marriage) was harmful. I was with someone who didn't appreciate me or treat me the way I deserved. I knew this but didn't leave not because of fear of being alone, or feeling like I failed but because I didn't want HIS feelings to be hurt. Most of my happiness comes from knowing I make others happy, and the thought of hurting someone actually makes me sick to my stomach. My previous marriage lasted 6 yrs and because I held out, hoping that my ex-husband would change.

Now? I know what I want, I know that my happiness is equally if not more important. I still struggle with the people pleasing aspect of it, but luckily I found someone that isn't manipulative or quite simply an asshole.

It's hard to understand unless you understand what drives that person to be that way.

There is a difference of taking care the self, and being selfish. Being selfish can be a behavioral aspect of one's persona or deep-rooted within the psyche.

Selfish people are very difficult to please.

kickfight wrote:
On cue, the Dear John letter to the thread.

I have no problem with it, I just probably should back out or it will become "well your relationship is xyz" and then I'll be like "well this is actually my relationship" and then then it's "oh well you don't understand because of this sentence about something in your life" and then we're talking about my relationship and not the concepts, which is my fault for using it as an example.


I'm gonna keep reading though, it's still good to see what people have to say about it.

I ain't mad or nuthin.


last question:

Jules NYC wrote:
Selfish people are very difficult to please.

wouldn't a selfish person please themselves?

Anna Adrielle wrote:

candy and green beans? is that like that whole milk and cow analogy?

Lol
Ever read Aesop's fables?
Lots of good lessons in there.

Jules NYC wrote:
There is a difference of taking care the self, and being selfish. Being selfish can be a behavioral aspect of one's persona or deep-rooted within the psyche.

Selfish people are very difficult to please.

Totally agree...NOW. Life is all a learning experience. In my case, it wasn't until I realized that there really was someone out there that would treat me like a princess and be everything I wanted that I stopped putting my happiness last.

The way you're raised also has something to do with it, hate to be one of those but my mom really screwed us in the head, it's taken 15 yrs to undo her handy work, lol.

Damianne wrote:
I have no problem with it, I just probably should back out or it will become "well your relationship is xyz" and then I'll be like "well this is actually my relationship" and then then it's "oh well you don't understand because of this sentence about something in your life" and then we're talking about my relationship and not the concepts, which is my fault for using it as an example.

I'm gonna keep reading though, it's still good to see what people have to say about it.

I ain't mad or nuthin.

This one's a complex topic because it addresses both relationship dynamics *and* an external judgment on the "moral" component of leaving a relationship. The former is getting a good workout, but the latter... not so much.

I feel like I should write a self-help book on relationships every week until I am reminded that people pursue their misery as much as they pursue their happiness... sometimes even moreso.

Damianne wrote:

I have no problem with it, I just probably should back out or it will become "well your relationship is xyz" and then I'll be like "well this is actually my relationship" and then then it's "oh well you don't understand because of this sentence about something in your life" and then we're talking about my relationship and not the concepts, which is my fault for using it as an example.


I'm gonna keep reading though, it's still good to see what people have to say about it.

I ain't mad or nuthin.


last question:

wouldn't a selfish person please themselves?

Selfish people not only please themselves but expect everyone else to please them before they please themselves.

Damianne wrote:
last question:

wouldn't a selfish person please themselves?

Not if they selfishly believe that it's up to others to make them happy...

modeled wrote:
Commitment is the most powerful thing a human can do.

Seriously, I feel bad for anyone that gets involved with the OP.

"I never noticed it but one pinky is longer than the other. NEXT!"

Jojo West wrote:
Totally agree...NOW. Life is all a learning experience. In my case, it wasn't until I realized that there really was someone out there that would treat me like a princess and be everything I wanted that I stopped putting my happiness last.

The way you're raised also has something to do with it, hate to be one of those but my mom really screwed us in the head, it's taken 15 yrs to undo her handy work, lol.

I am one who enjoys pleasing. Thing is, the very act of pleasing may or may not be selfish in itself. When you please another and or put someone else before your own needs, you need to have enough within yourself first. In other words, enough resources to truly 'give' to another.

People get resentful when they put others before themselves without having enough resources to attend to their own needs/happiness.

kickfight wrote:
+ another million (25+ year relationship).

I'm going on 3 next month. It isn't easy. So many people are too willing to give up at the first sign of problems.

Damianne wrote:
last question:

wouldn't a selfish person please themselves?

Selfish people are focused on themselves, but not necessarily healthfully. Many people like to keep their SOs (and others in their lives) walking on eggshells because they get off on the power of it. They do it by being perpetually aggrieved and dissatisfied, and constantly changing and upping their demands. Of course, there are various definitions of selfishness - there's the 'rational self-interest' or there's the 'infantile foot-stamping.' The distinction being empathy and respect for others.

JessieLeigh wrote:

Not if they selfishly believe that it's up to others to make them happy...

You 'get it'.

Andialu wrote:

Seriously, I feel bad for anyone that gets involved with the OP.

"I never noticed it but one pinky is longer than the other. NEXT!"

I feel bad for all the people on the internet who obviously never learned comprehensive reading in school.

DevilMayCare Photo wrote:
Selfish people are focused on themselves, but not necessarily healthfully. Many people like to keep their SOs (and others in their lives) walking on eggshells because they get off on the power of it. They do it by being perpetually aggrieved and dissatisfied, and constantly changing and upping their demands. Of course, there are various definitions of selfishness - there's the 'rational self-interest' or there's the 'infantile foot-stamping.' The distinction being empathy and respect for others.

There are cardinal qualities that I will always respect and admire in another human being.
If one has honor, that covers respect, loyalty, honesty and valor.

Being selfish is such a base quality.

I do however take care of myself.
If a relationship takes away from me as a person instead of adding to my experience, what use is it to me?

I can take care of my needs alone; the right person would not only care about my needs but support my wants (the candy perhaps?)

California Girls Skate wrote:
Hmm. Interesting reply. In other words...

You see duty and loyalty as sadness.

You can't imagine smiling if you chose a life with duty and loyalty.

You see being childish as a way to enjoy a relationship.

When my grandmother became too frail for my grandfather to take care of her by himself, he moved her to a nursing home. Every single day for more than ten years he went to that nursing home in the morning to spend the day with his wife and left in the evening. He died just a few months after her - they were together for 65 years.

Maybe the most trying time in my marriage was when my husband went through cancer treatments. Suddenly he wasn't the strong-as-a-bull man's man anymore, but wholly depended on me for the most ordinary things like getting out of bed to take a shit. Yep, marriage isn't always glamorous and accompanying someone on their battle with the big C every day can be messy and depressing...but it also brought us closer together. My husband knows I will have his back no matter what and vice versa, because we've been through situations where many people would just quit.

In 2012 I was completely gone from this site for over half a year because I temporarily moved back to Russia to take care of my mother, who had some medical issues of her own.

Don't be too hard on a 22 year old for knowing little about committment and sacrifice. At 22 everyone believes they are invincible, that's the privilege of youth. She is a bright young woman though and judging from her postings already well more mature than most 22 year olds I know, so I'm virtually certain she'll have a different outlook on this in another decade or two.

I for one believe that marriage still means something more than saving taxes, even though I do not believe in a God. I do believe however that anyone who is not 100 % convinced that marriage is forever and that they would be willing to make the kind of sacrifices for their spouse that my grandfather did, should not get married in the first place. Marriage is not for everyone and no one needs to get married these days anyway. If you like to keep your options open, marriage isn't for you.

Russian Katarina wrote:

When my grandmother became too frail for my grandfather to take care of her by himself, he moved her to a nursing home. Every single day for more than ten years he went to that nursing home in the morning to spend the day with his wife and left in the evening. He died just a few months after her - they were together for 65 years.

Maybe the most trying time in my marriage was when my husband went through cancer treatments. Suddenly he wasn't the strong-as-a-bull man's man anymore, but wholly depended on me for the most ordinary things like getting out of bed to take a shit. Yep, marriage isn't always glamorous and accompanying someone on their battle with the big C every day can be messy and depressing...but it also brought us closer together. My husband knows I will have his back no matter what and vice versa, because we've been through situations where many people would just quit.

In 2012 I was completely gone from this site for over half a year because I temporarily moved back to Russia to take care of my mother, who had some medical issues of her own.

Don't be too hard on a 22 year old for knowing little about committment and sacrifice. At 22 everyone believes they are invincible, that's the privilege of youth. She is a bright young woman though and judging from her postings already well more mature than most 22 year olds I know, so I'm virtually certain she'll have a different outlook on this in another decade or two.

I for one believe that marriage still means something more than saving taxes, even though I do not believe in a God. I do believe however that anyone who is not 100 % convinced that marriage is forever and that they would be willing to make the kind of sacrifices for their spouse that my grandfather did, should not get married in the first place. Marriage is not for everyone and no one needs to get married these days anyway. If you like to keep your options open, marriage isn't for you.

Thoughtful post.

Andialu wrote:
"I never noticed it but one pinky is longer than the other. NEXT!"

She's not saying that.

modeled wrote:
I don't know about you people, but I've noticed this on Facebook on more than 1 occasion recently... I honestly don't understand what it's in reference to.



I guess the only thing I could see that applying to would be a career.  But it seems to fit the theme of this thread.  Am I right or am I right?

Narcissism.

Life is not about oneself solely.  But I like the picture because it is quite revealing.  Notice that the woman is walking alone and walking to nowhere. Quite true.

modeled wrote:

She's not saying that.

Sorry, I was going off a different thread where I got that impression. Not so relevant in this thread. My mistake.