Photographer
rfordphotos
Posts: 8866
Antioch, California, US
Fist Full of Ish wrote:
[...]
I still think Trump was correct and in agreement with the Secretary of H&HS, and he still is today. I took an oath years ago to defend your right to any opinion you choose, and your right to express it. I stand by that oath.
I would like to point out that the two people you see as leaders in this fight against a virus have, between them, ZERO medical training. One has a business degree, the other is a lawyer. Mr Trump chooses to ignore Dr. Fauci an expert in Infectious Diseases with a world wide reputation.
Two people can see the same events quite differently. Only time will tell us which version is closer to the facts.
edit to add: I dont want to start an argument. Reasonable people disagree all the time. I dont imagine anything I am likely to say would change your position, and that goes both ways, so why argue?
Photographer
Fist Full of Ish
Posts: 2301
Aiken, South Carolina, US
IMAGINERIES wrote:
Maybe this potential disaster may convince all countries to collaborate against a common threat...….
Regardless of political interests, religions, etc.... It would have to be a lot bigger common threat for that to happen, and even then, there are those who wouldn't be able to resolve a common interest.
Photographer
Fist Full of Ish
Posts: 2301
Aiken, South Carolina, US
Shadow Dancer wrote:
I searched "Are viruses alive" and it appears to be complicated since they replicate using hijacked resources. Yet, they do replicate. So they may not be alive but they aren't exactly "dead" either. If they were dead then they would not replicate.
https://www.livescience.com/58018-are-v … alive.html They don't carry-out the minimum processes required to be considered "life". 'Good for you for looking it up though.
Photographer
Fist Full of Ish
Posts: 2301
Aiken, South Carolina, US
rfordphotos wrote:
I took an oath years ago to defend your right to any opinion you choose, and your right to express it. I stand by that oath.
I would like to point out that the two people you see as leaders in this fight against a virus have, between them, ZERO medical training. One has a business degree, the other is a lawyer. Mr Trump chooses to ignore Dr. Fauci an expert in Infectious Diseases with a world wide reputation.
Two people can see the same events quite differently. Only time will tell us which version is closer to the facts.
edit to add: I dont want to start an argument. Reasonable people disagree all the time. I dont imagine anything I am likely to say would change your position, and that goes both ways, so why argue? The leaders of the fight against anything this urgent must be leaders first. That's what we have. I see that Trump is addressing Dr. Fauci, not ignoring him. There's been a lot of disinformation.
I found this:
"Administration officials also countered reports that the administration had directed public health officials including Anthony Fauci [essentially to be mute]. Fauci on Saturday called the report a “real mischaracterization.” “He was never muzzled,” Trump said, calling a reporter’s question “very dishonest.”
I believe there IS a lot of dishonesty going on to influence the public against Trump, this being a campaign year.
I know what you're saying. We BOTH know that someone is being very dishonest because we get conflicting reports. But does it make any sense that over 95% of reports about Trump are negative when, objectively, he's getting things done? One side of the other is VERY dishonest, on that I think we can agree.
Artist/Painter
Hunter GWPB
Posts: 8196
King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, US
Fist Full of Ish wrote:
I, and millions of people would disagree with some of what you said. Much of what you said is your opinion and perspective. That's cool. But that doesn't make it fact. The problem here, is that you are discussing politics, not the disease. And we aren't allowed to discuss politics here, which makes it very difficult to respond. The moderators have already indicated that we should keep the politics to a minimum. Please do. I get to read and hear plenty of political opinions everyday. I am open to rational and thought out comments with which I disagree with, but I don't need to read it here, especially when it is forbidden to discuss the heart of the matters.
Artist/Painter
Hunter GWPB
Posts: 8196
King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, US
Fist Full of Ish wrote:
They don't carry-out the minimum processes required to be considered "life". 'Good for you for looking it up though. This is a rather complicated discussion. Viruses don't have the characteristics with which we describe the majority of life, but they are not inorganic. They are not rocks. They carry genetic material, reproduce and evolve. They do have structure, but they don't have cell structure, which is not a big surprise since they are smaller than cells. Yet they are large enough that portions of viruses can be used to make vaccines.
Are viruses organisms? A definition of an organism is a form of life. Another definition of an organism requires it to be at least one cell. By that definition, bacteria are life forms and viruses are not. So the definition of an organism is being used to define what is life. But does defining the term organism, mean that things that don't fit the definition of organisms, are not a life form?
Do you think we have discovered all of the forms of life on the planet or in the universe? Considering the number of types of organisms there are, is it possible that there are other organisms unknown, or that life exists outside the definition of organism?
Viruses have some characteristics of life, but fail to fulfill all of the aspects of the definition. Which doesn't mean they aren't life, but could mean the definition of life, which is arbitrary, even if it is agreed upon by consensus, needs to be redefined. Or it doesn't, and viruses just fall into a gray area. Viruses are alive. Viruses can be killed. How do you kill something that is not alive? How is something that is alive and can be killed, not life? The consensus on whether or not viruses are life is not absolute in the scientific community.
Photographer
Shadow Dancer
Posts: 9779
Bellingham, Washington, US
Hunter GWPB wrote:
This is a rather complicated discussion. Viruses don't have the characteristics with which we describe the majority of life, but they are not inorganic. They are not rocks. They carry genetic material, reproduce and evolve. They do have structure, but they don't have cell structure, which is not a big surprise since they are smaller than cells. Yet they are large enough that portions of viruses can be used to make vaccines.
Are viruses organisms? A definition of an organism is a form of life. Another definition of an organism requires it to be at least one cell. By that definition, bacteria are life forms and viruses are not. So the definition of a life form is being used to define what is life. But does defining the term life form, mean that things that don't fit the definition of life form are not life?
Do you think we have discovered all of the forms of life on the planet or in the universe? Considering the number of types of organisms there are, is it possible that there are other organisms unknown, or that life exists outside the definition of organism?
Viruses have some characteristics of life, but fail to fulfill all of the aspects of the definition. Which doesn't mean they aren't life, but could mean the definition of life, which is arbitrary, even if it is agreed upon by consensus, needs to be redefined. Or it doesn't, and viruses just fall into a gray area. Viruses are alive. Viruses can be killed. How do you kill something that is not alive? How is something that is alive and can be killed, not life? The consensus on whether or not viruses are life is not absolute in the scientific community. ^^^ What he said.
Photographer
LightDreams
Posts: 4451
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Some updates:
- It's now officially a global pandemic.
- Italy, which declared it's first official case on Feb 20th, had 168 die from it yesterday alone. For reasons that are unknown, the current fatality rate in Italy appears to be significantly higher than we've seen before, somewhere between 5% and 6% (numbers are changing rapidly throughout the day).
- For those who are still, at least somewhat, in denial about how serious it is, here are some remarks from Dr. Anthony Fauci at the White House (as reported by CNN):
-----
"If you thought coronavirus was no big deal or if you thought it was going to go away, wake up.
Your life is about to change.
Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, issued a disturbing warning during a White House briefing Tuesday: Americans everywhere need to change the way they live their lives. Right now.
"We would like the country to realize that as a nation, we can't be doing the kinds of things we were doing a few months ago. It doesn't matter if you're in a state that has no cases or one case," Fauci said, referring Americans to the new federal Coronavirus.gov website for details on precautions to take at home, at work and out in the world.
"If and when the infections will come -- and they will come, sorry to say, sad to say -- when you're dealing with an infectious disease... we want to be where the infection is going to be, as well as where it is," Fauci said.
"Everybody should say, 'All hands on deck,'" he added.
"
-----
Again, for those that haven't been taking it seriously: Don't panic, but be aware that complacency is dangerous to yourself and those around you.
[EDIT] One other update. While it's still early, it looks like China may have finally "turned the corner"... [/EDIT]
Photographer
Shadow Dancer
Posts: 9779
Bellingham, Washington, US
Fist Full of Ish wrote:
When I first replied on Feb 29, there were 5 deaths in WA, and in the nation due to coronavirus. Ten days later there have been 24 deaths in WA, but 19 of those are from the same nursing home. For the country, it's gone from 5 to 26 deaths. Meanwhile, Italy has had 630 deaths.
Last time I said "Trump was correct". I was attacked be sarcastic people. The moderator has spoken on that and said that wasn't OK. I haven't attacked anyone.
Let's remember that the CDC is organized under the Department of Health and Human Services, which is a cabinet-level agency, and reports to the president. No matter how much some of you don't want to believe it, Trump is a manager extraordinaire, and he reportedly uses his cabinet like a manager should. Folks try hard to prove that there is some kind of conflict between the CDC and the president, and the president DID fire some people there, but he has significantly increased the H&HS budget in 2019, whereas he cut most agencies last year.
Now quit the sarcastic ad hominem attacks!
I still think Trump was correct and in agreement with the Secretary of H&HS, and he still is today. You are welcome to your beliefs, I am not here to try and change them.
I find it difficult to resolve the things that have been stated as factual with a situation that lacks substantial facts.
We know that the virus can incubate in humans for several days before symptoms appear. We know that some folks will not become sick enough to warrant medical attention. This makes it difficult to know the actual numbers of infected people.
One of the statistics we have indicates that somewhere around every week and a half or so the number of cases worldwide seems to double. Of course this assumes that we are getting accurate information from China, something that has not been reliable in the past and is probably not reliable now. Stating "facts" when the situation is unknown is irresponsible and incorrect in my opinion.
None of that resolves well with the following quotes, which are obviously incorrect. So, we disagree profoundly in regards to how this is being handled nationally. I am of the opinion that we will know much more very soon.
“It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine,” Trump told CNBC’s Joe Kernen from the World Economic Forum in Davos.
This is incorrect, plain and simple.
""I had a long talk with President Xi — for the people in this room — two nights ago, and he feels very confident. He feels that, again as I mentioned, by April or during the month of April, the heat, generally speaking, kills this kind of virus."
Bearing in mind that the common cold is also a virus and summer colds are not uncommon, this is simply unsubstatiated.
Invoking President Xi of China as a potential source of accurate information is questionable at best. You can look at April in MAY and depending on circumstances you may be able to say something of this sort.
Or it could continue to infect, or migrate to the Southern Hemisphere and return North seasonally, or-or-or-or.
It is irresponsible for a pOTUS to attempt to foist off unsubstantiated feel-good fluff on the American people (and yes, many have done that, does saying many people run red lights excuse the action?).
I don't feel like finding the many incorrect quotes that are available. Many are tweets.
You are free to spin things however you like, I ain't buying it - period. I know "sales pitch" when I see it.
Cheers, SD
Photographer
Shadow Dancer
Posts: 9779
Bellingham, Washington, US
Photographer
Shadow Dancer
Posts: 9779
Bellingham, Washington, US
Clothing Designer
GRMACK
Posts: 5436
Bakersfield, California, US
Wonder if mosquitoes could transport it much like Zika or the West Nile virus?
Got bit enough last year by the things. Once they get inside your house, they are a mess to deal with while sleeping.
And some of those repellents don't work either. If it has a fragrance they allegedly don't like, they just go around you upwind and bite there.
Photographer
LightDreams
Posts: 4451
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
GRMACK wrote:
Wonder if mosquitoes could transport it much like Zika or the West Nile virus? Apparently (according to some of the "authoritative" sites) there is no evidence of mosquito transmission, at least so far.
Photographer
Shadow Dancer
Posts: 9779
Bellingham, Washington, US
I find this disturbing. This is very different than say - top secret discussions with North Korea or some such. There should be nothing to hide and no reason to hide information on this topic. An informed public can make decisions on their own regarding sanitary practices, exposure, etc. This reminds me of how these sorts of things are done in China, not good. https://www.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-wh … 43805.html
Photographer
rxz
Posts: 1094
Glen Ellyn, Illinois, US
Shadow Dancer wrote:
I find this disturbing. This is very different than say - top secret discussions with North Korea or some such.
There should be nothing to hide and no reason to hide information on this topic. An informed public can make decisions on their own regarding sanitary practices, exposure, etc.
This reminds me of how these sorts of things are done in China, not good.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-wh … 43805.html Is it time to heed the robot in the TV Lost in Space program - 'When in trouble or doubt, run in circles, yell and shout!'.
Photographer
Fist Full of Ish
Posts: 2301
Aiken, South Carolina, US
Hunter GWPB wrote:
I, and millions of people would disagree with some of what you said. Much of what you said is your opinion and perspective. That's cool. But that doesn't make it fact. The problem here, is that you are discussing politics, not the disease. And we aren't allowed to discuss politics here, which makes it very difficult to respond. The moderators have already indicated that we should keep the politics to a minimum. Please do. I get to read and hear plenty of political opinions everyday. I am open to rational and thought out comments with which I disagree with, but I don't need to read it here, especially when it is forbidden to discuss the heart of the matters. Why is it politics when I respond to someone else? I merely countered a sarcastic version of "Trump is incorrect about the virus."
BTW, I and millions of people would agree with what I said.
Photographer
Fist Full of Ish
Posts: 2301
Aiken, South Carolina, US
Shadow Dancer wrote:
You are welcome to your beliefs, I am not here to try and change them.
I find it difficult to resolve the things that have been stated as factual with a situation that lacks substantial facts.
We know that the virus can incubate in humans for several days before symptoms appear. We know that some folks will not become sick enough to warrant medical attention. This makes it difficult to know the actual numbers of infected people.
One of the statistics we have indicates that somewhere around every week and a half or so the number of cases worldwide seems to double. Of course this assumes that we are getting accurate information from China, something that has not been reliable in the past and is probably not reliable now. Stating "facts" when the situation is unknown is irresponsible and incorrect in my opinion.
None of that resolves well with the following quotes, which are obviously incorrect. So, we disagree profoundly in regards to how this is being handled nationally. I am of the opinion that we will know much more very soon.
“It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine,” Trump told CNBC’s Joe Kernen from the World Economic Forum in Davos.
This is incorrect, plain and simple.
""I had a long talk with President Xi — for the people in this room — two nights ago, and he feels very confident. He feels that, again as I mentioned, by April or during the month of April, the heat, generally speaking, kills this kind of virus."
Bearing in mind that the common cold is also a virus and summer colds are not uncommon, this is simply unsubstatiated.
Invoking President Xi of China as a potential source of accurate information is questionable at best. You can look at April in MAY and depending on circumstances you may be able to say something of this sort.
Or it could continue to infect, or migrate to the Southern Hemisphere and return North seasonally, or-or-or-or.
It is irresponsible for a pOTUS to attempt to foist off unsubstantiated feel-good fluff on the American people (and yes, many have done that, does saying many people run red lights excuse the action?).
I don't feel like finding the many incorrect quotes that are available. Many are tweets.
You are free to spin things however you like, I ain't buying it - period. I know "sales pitch" when I see it.
Cheers, SD You are the one "spinning". I gave some facts that are pretty easy to verify, and stated some things that should be obvious..
Photographer
Shadow Dancer
Posts: 9779
Bellingham, Washington, US
Fist Full of Ish wrote:
You are the one "spinning". I gave some facts that are pretty easy to verify, and stated some things that should be obvious.. As I said, I have no intention of trying to change your beliefs.
I see no valid response to any item in my post.
If you are correct and have facts it should be easy.
So, I think we are done here, I know I am.
Photographer
Fist Full of Ish
Posts: 2301
Aiken, South Carolina, US
Hunter GWPB wrote:
...
Are viruses organisms? ...
Do you think we have discovered all of the forms of life on the planet or in the universe? ...
... Viruses are alive. Viruses can be killed. How do you kill something that is not alive? ... Viruses are not organisms.
Do you think we have discovered all of the forms of life on the planet or in the universe? No, but that can't be proven. However, I present this possibility as a minimum: Life requires a way to harness an energy source, and we know of a few ways, but if we discovered a form that exploited a new path, we would probably agree that would constitute a new life form. Of course there are plenty of other aspects of known life mechanisms that could vary, and thereby make for many possibilities for new life forms.
Viruses are not alive. "killed" in the sentence: "Viruses can be killed." means "inactivated", and should not be interpreted as evidence that viruses are alive. ...!!
Photographer
Fist Full of Ish
Posts: 2301
Aiken, South Carolina, US
The White House position is that the risk to any average american from Covid-19 is low, but that could change rapidly.
We will see more cases. "This position has not changed from day one."
Photographer
Fist Full of Ish
Posts: 2301
Aiken, South Carolina, US
Doctors have noticed something curious: Very few children have been diagnosed with coronavirus. And of those who have, most have had mild cases.
Worldwide, there have been no deaths reported so far in young children.
Photographer
LightDreams
Posts: 4451
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Angela Merkel, Germany's Chancellor, pulled no punches informing Germany:
"When the virus is out there, the population has no immunity and no therapy exists, then 60 to 70% of the population will be infected."
“The process has to be focused on not overburdening the health system by slowing the virus’s spread. It’s about winning time,” Merkel continued, adding that the government’s top priority should be slowing the spread of the virus.
The message of "delaying things as much as possible" has also been one of the constant messages here in BC.
Canada is a little more clear about what they know and don't know. Canada's health minister today said that their (best guess) models indicated that somewhere between 30% and 70% of the population would eventually become infected. She agreed that there was a pretty wide range, but that's as good of a prediction as they're able to make.
That does not mean it will be serious for most of those people. But the game is slowing it down so that the medical system is better able to handle it (you'll hear a lot more about "flattening the curve"). Plus more medical information about the best course of treatment, will be available.
Unknown what approach Trump will take in tonight's speech. We'll know more about that shortly.
Photographer
IMAGINERIES
Posts: 2048
New York, New York, US
Why worry the leader has a " natural instinct for science" we are in good hands....
Photographer
Tony From Syracuse
Posts: 2503
Syracuse, New York, US
Well this leader..... restricted travel from China early on while democratic candidates implied that was xenophobia to do so, so there is that.
case in point....possible, but unlikely next president of the US Biden said "This is no time for Donald Trump’s record of hysteria and xenophobia — hysterical xenophobia — and fearmongering,” said Biden the day after the travel restrictions were imposed.
WHO Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus warned it would increase “fear and stigma, with little public health benefit.” this is the....WHO director... ladies and gents
CNN ran a story warning that “the US coronavirus travel ban could backfire” and have the effect of “stigmatizing countries and ethnicities.”
so...clearly the otherside is willing to risk public heath in a zeal to appear PC and themselves, are switching gears. so pot meet kettle and all of that.
Photographer
rfordphotos
Posts: 8866
Antioch, California, US
I dont believe Trump or any other leader in the western world would ever have had ANY chance at actually "containing" this virus. The politics, economics and uncertainties in the beginning made the only useful choices impossible. I dont know that I believe there was EVER a real possibility of "containing" the virus, by ANYONE. Maybe, if by a miracle the Chinese had seen the virus, picked up immediately on its properties, and TOTALLY isolated a relatively tiny region it could have been contained. But lets be real. China (or any other country) is a damn big place and with modern life, travel is so routine, so necessary that actually sealing up a whole region is probably not possible. Certainly not for the months it will take for a vaccine to be approved. And it only takes one guy with the virus on a train or bus or plane or cruise ship and we find ourselve right where we are now. My problem with the response in the US is and continues to be the inconsistencies between the various parts of the govt. I find it inexcusable for them to stand on the same stage, in the same press conference and give diametrically opposed "facts". hopefully some reliable information: The World Health Organization https://www.who.int/emergencies/disease … virus-2019 The US Center For Disease Control https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/index.html Canadian Public Health https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/ … ction.html UK National Health Service https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/ Australian Dept of Health https://www.health.gov.au/health-topics … -2019-ncov and at that point I run into my lack of foreign languages. I am sure every country in the EU, all the Pacific Rim nations, China etc etc have webpages dedicated to informing their citizens, I just cant immediately find them........
Photographer
TEB-Art Photo
Posts: 605
Carrboro, North Carolina, US
rfordphotos wrote:
I dont believe Trump or any other leader in the western world would ever have had ANY chance at actually "containing" this virus. The politics, economics and uncertainties in the beginning made the only useful choices impossible.
I dont know that I believe there was EVER a real possibility of "containing" the virus, by ANYONE.
Maybe, if by a miracle the Chinese had seen the virus, picked up immediately on its properties, and TOTALLY isolated a relatively tiny region it could have been contained.
But lets be real. China (or any other country) is a damn big place and with modern life, travel is so routine, so necessary that actually sealing up a whole region is probably not possible. Certainly not for the months it will take for a vaccine to be approved.
And it only takes one guy with the virus on a train or bus or plane or cruise ship and we find ourselve right where we are now.
My problem with the response in the US is and continues to be the inconsistencies between the various parts of the govt. I find it inexcusable for them to stand on the same stage, in the same press conference and give diametrically opposed "facts".
hopefully some reliable information:
.......
and at that point I run into my lack of foreign languages. I am sure every country in the EU, all the Pacific Rim nations, China etc etc have webpages dedicated to informing their citizens, I just cant immediately find them........ It's about slowing the spread; containment is already a lost cause.
The US fell on its face by not having enough test kits READY and AVAILABLE. South Korea DID. Containment is easier when you have a better read on hot zones.
Clothing Designer
GRMACK
Posts: 5436
Bakersfield, California, US
LightDreams wrote:
Apparently (according to some of the "authoritative" sites) there is no evidence of mosquito transmission, at least so far. Hope so.
Given this virus sprung up during the mosquitoes dormant (winter) season, it will be interesting to see what happens when the water temps hit 50 and they begin to breed and stir again. If so, then this might be number 14 for the list of things they carry:
http://outbreaknewstoday.com/13-disease … oes-63771/
Last year was a mess here with the things. Now we have so many vagrants living along the river here (CA seems to be a sanctuary state for vagrants who reside there.) that if they get bit, no telling where it will lead to.
Photographer
LightDreams
Posts: 4451
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
"New York (CNN Business)The New York Federal Reserve is taking out the big guns to calm panicky financial markets.
The NY Fed announced plans Thursday to inject vast amounts of money into the financial system, totaling at least $1.5 TRILLION." (capitalization is mine)
It was only a few days ago that they announced that they were injecting $50 Billion into the system.
Dow dropped another 10% / 2,352 points today. Is it me or are these (previously record drops) starting to sound like just another day?
---
And on a different note, one commentator noted that things didn't really hit home for some people until they realized that there were no NBA games, no NHL games, no MLB games, no MLS games, etc, etc...
Photographer
Shadow Dancer
Posts: 9779
Bellingham, Washington, US
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45198
San Juan Bautista, California, US
The shit has hit the fan!
Photographer
TomFRohwer
Posts: 1601
Hamburg, Hamburg, Germany
Hunter GWPB wrote:
Viruses don't have the characteristics with which we describe the majority of life, but they are not inorganic. They are not rocks. They carry genetic material, reproduce and evolve. Viruses do not reproduce.
Viruses can get into cells and replace genetic material of these cells and afterwards these cells reproduce the viruses.
Clothing Designer
GRMACK
Posts: 5436
Bakersfield, California, US
Got an email from Samy's Camera in California regarding the virus:
"Like you, Samy’s Camera is concerned. The health and safety of our customers, staff and associates are our top priorities. We are committed to doing our part to prevent the proliferation of the virus by following CDC guidelines. In addition to our daily cleaning procedures, we are now disinfecting demo equipment before and after it is handled along with frequently disinfecting often-touched surfaces such as door handles, countertops and glass displays. We’re asking all our associates (and we urge everyone) to follow the CDC guidelines, which recommend regular hand washing and disinfecting as the most important preventive measures we can take to limit the spread of the virus. Samy’s has always been proud of our clean and well-run stores, and we know this is important now more than ever to prevent the spread of this virus.
Based on guidance from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, we’re keeping stores open, and will keep a close eye on their updated recommendations.
We are making shopping even easier now. In order to alleviate any and all concerns Samy's is now offering:
FREE STORE CURBSIDE PICKUP:
Just give us a call, and will bring your order out to your car in our parking lots."
Best Buy also sent me one, but didn't cover wiping all the demo stuff after a customer handles it. I think they only offered a germ wipe at the door much like a grocery store.
Artist/Painter
Hunter GWPB
Posts: 8196
King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, US
TomFRohwer wrote:
Viruses do not reproduce.
Viruses can get into cells and replace genetic material of these cells and afterwards these cells reproduce the viruses. In other words, viruses exploit their environment, a cell, and trick that cell into replicating the virus' DNA or RNA, resulting in greater numbers of virus. Which is just another method of reproduction. Every species exploits their environment in order to reproduce. Some birds lay their eggs in the nests of other birds. They are known as brood parasites. Because they trick another bird into raising their young, did they not reproduce? A parasite, in one way or another, uses its host as a mechanism to reproduce.
A mule, or other sterile hybrids (the result of two species reproducing), cannot reproduce. Is a mule not a life form?
Because some people adhere to arbitrary or scientifically ancient definitions, which do not address all of the known facts, they draw and depend on lines in the sand, and they cannot think beyond those lines. Viruses are many times smaller than a cell. Do you think that science avoided making definitions until they discovered things that are much smaller than what they could see with the technology available at the time? The first realization that there was something that is now known as a virus came nearly 300 years after the microscope.
It is good to know that biologist discuss the question: Are viruses alive, or are they complex molecules with DNA, that have some of the characteristics of life and depend on their environment for the attributes of life, just like other forms of life, where as said environment is micro, as opposed to the macro environment that other life depends on. But a couple of photographers are absolute in their convictions, where biologists, as a group, are not.
Its okay. You guys can call a tomato a tomatoe.
It use to be that plants were characterized by their reproductive structures and other visible taxonomic criteria. But with genome definition, science is finding that familial relationships are not always best defined by reproductive parts and perviously established taxonomic criteria.
Pluto use to be a planet. Did Pluto change? Or did the criteria for determining what is a planet change? Who gets to set the criteria for determining what is a planet? The planets? Photographers? Ultimately, science is a matter of scientific consensus and scientific consensus can changed. Or be discussed to death.
Viruses are "things" with DNA. What else has DNA, has a mechanism to replicate that DNA, evolves that DNA, but isn't life? Ya'll think there isn't any semblance of reason to reconsider the definitions of what is life or an organism, in light of the discovery of viruses, a relatively new advancement?
The previously made trifling argument by another person, about harnessing energy, is also bogus. No life form, that we are familiar with, harnesses energy in absence of it's environment. When it comes down to the final result, is it different to take energy from the sun to reproduce, as opposed to robbing a cell of it's energy to reproduce? The energy, ultimately, was derived from the sun. Maybe I will get around to further addressing that comment later.
Photographer
Red Sky Photography
Posts: 3897
Germantown, Maryland, US
Hunter GWPB wrote:
A mule, or other sterile hybrids (the result of two species reproducing), cannot reproduce. Is a mule not a life form? Interesting story in the Washington Post about cross species breeding and Hybrids producing offspring, some of which lived.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/re … story.html
Artist/Painter
Hunter GWPB
Posts: 8196
King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, US
Red Sky Photography wrote:
Interesting story in the Washington Post about cross species breeding and Hybrids producing offspring, some of which lived.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/re … story.html The definition of a species, at one time at least, is an animal (plant, bird, etc) that is reproductively and/or geographically isolated. It turned out that when people of European decent changed the ecology of the great plains, that western crows and eastern crows were able to interbreed, calling into question if they were separate species, since they are no longer geographically isolated.
Also mentioned in your linked article, Polar bears and brown bears can interbreed, and the cubs take on the hunting characteristics of the mother. Because she teaches them to hunt. But normally, they are geographically separated and do not interbreed. The question is then, are brown bears and polar bears different species or different races of the same species, adapted to their environments?
Hybrids of varieties are known to reproduce. Which is logical. Hybrids can be of the same species and hybrid plants often regenerate. Bradford Pear has become invasive and cross breeds with other pears. Bradford Pears are also fragile to the point of being dangerous. (Please do not plant them.)
It is interesting to note that the hybrid bears in the article that reproduced were siblings. It would be conceivable that sibling hybrids in nature would also be able to reproduce and the resulting population could still be reproductively isolated from either of the progenitor species. Or, perhaps not. While mules, as far as I know, are medically sterile, sterility can also be defined as an incompatibility between a sperm and/or egg of any other individual or species. In which case, it is reasonable that sibling hybrids could breed within their family, but not outside of it.
Thanks for the link.
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Shadow Dancer
Posts: 9779
Bellingham, Washington, US
Model
Model Sarah
Posts: 40987
Columbus, Ohio, US
Uh our governor closed schools until April 3rd and the internet is out of toilet paper.
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LightDreams
Posts: 4451
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
I've found myself in the strange situation of catching a hell of a cold, but at the worst possible time(!). While I've isolated myself (just to be safe) apparently there are quite a few other people in the same situation. People that have either caught regular colds (it is the cold season) or the regular flu, and are, quite understandably, a little nervous. I found this W.H.O. chart quite helpful in terms of sorting out what is what, in terms of the symptoms. Just in case anyone else finds it useful. https://i.cbc.ca/1.5495357.1584032407!/ … mptoms.jpg
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Shadow Dancer
Posts: 9779
Bellingham, Washington, US
Model Sarah wrote:
Uh our governor closed schools until April 3rd and the internet is out of toilet paper. There are several possilities.
1. The internet does not poop.
2. The internet is poop and wiping is futile.
3. People are hoarding TP.
3 FTW!!!!
There is none at Fred Meyer, it disappears at Costco by early morning daily and I found some at Grocery Outlet but they intentionally trickle it out so nobody can fill their spare bedroom with one shopping visit. That's fine, I'll drop by again soon and get another package, should last a long time.
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rfordphotos
Posts: 8866
Antioch, California, US
Shadow Dancer wrote:
There are several possilities.
1. The internet does not poop.
2. The internet is poop and wiping is futile.
3. People are hoarding TP.
3 FTW!!!!
There is none at Fred Meyer, it disappears at Costco by early morning daily and I found some at Grocery Outlet but they intentionally trickle it out so nobody can fill their spare bedroom with one shopping visit. That's fine, I'll drop by again soon and get another package, should last a long time. Ha! Silly People LOL
Everybody knows the REAL shortage will be green M&M's. And maybe the yellow ones....
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