I guess at that point I'm supposed to send ANOTHER email??!!?

Unless you're booking through an agency, you're most likely going to be dealing directly with "Net Models".  I'm technically one myself, so I'm not making any judgement calls on that.  However, in my experiences, the range of attention spans and reading comprehension levels among Net Models varies greatly.  If you find that annoying to deal with, then maybe searching for models online isn't really the best method for you?  It's pretty unavoidable behavior on the web, unfortunately.

Personally, I prefer to do most of my booking via email.  (I'm not here to be someone's free version of a 1-900 number.)  To be completely honest, people who cannot communicate effectively via text tend to irritate me.  I practically live online so it's the fastest and least intrusive way to get ahold of me, especially when I am at work (the real job) and find the phone to be INCREDIBLY disruptive.

Model Mayhem has been an excellent resource for me.  Through it, I have booked upcoming shoots with super talented people in Los Angeles and New York, as well as tons of local Seattle/Vancouver BC people I've had the pleasure of working with since I opened my account here.  It's like alternative education-- what you get out of it seems to directly relate to what you put in.

Since your email looks pretty generic, models are probably hesitant to make a phone call and reveal their phone number to a totally unknown (to them) person.  It may take another round of emails back to show that you are actually interested in them as individuals, and not just sending a casting call for which they may never get selected.

That is a VERY good point.  For every flakey "model" on a site like this, there is an equally questionable "photographer".  Screening is necessary, especially for unpaid hobbyists like myself.  I have called people here on the phone, but only after initial communication had been firmly established.

Brian Diaz wrote:
This is the Internet.  Email is a powerful and simple tool for communication over the Internet.  A lot of people prefer email to the phone.  I am one of them.  It's just something you'll have to get used to.

COME ON BRIAN,

IT IS A JOB INTERVIEW.  IF A POTENTIAL EMPLOYER ASKS YOU TO CALL YOU CALL.  YOU DO NOT SEND EMAILS.  FROM THE SAMPLES JOHN POSTED, I WOULDN'T EVEN CONSIDER THE MODELS IF THEY RESPONDED LIKE THEY DID.

John Ricard photography wrote:
I joined this site about a month ago and so far, its been a big waste of time.  Typically it goes like this...  I browse the model pages until I find a model that may be suited for a project that I am working on.  I send an email to the model with breif details about the project and about myself and I ask the model to CALL if he or she is interested.

If a model does not respond, that is fine with me and I do not contact the model again.

However, if a model IS interested, I would expect the model to call so I can provide full details about the project.  However, instead of a phone call, I get email responses like, "I am very interested."

I guess at that point I'm supposed to send ANOTHER email??!!? and we're supposed to go back and forth day after day?  I guess some people think model mayhem is another name for My Space.  I'm not looking for email pen pals -just models for legitimate projects. 

Why any model would be "interested" in a project but NOT call to secure a spot as part of that project is totally beyond me...

If you'd like to see a sample of 4 email responses that are typical of the sort of responses I've gotten from this site, visit this link:

http://img469.imageshack.us/img469/7795/mm4jz.jpg

This has been touched on in many other threads,  but just to bring you up to date,  I'll restate:
Internet modelling is not the same as regular commercial modelling.  You meet some guy on the interernet who you've never met before,  nor have you ever met any of his refrences or been to the location he asks you to meet him at.  The model is expected to show up excort free at this location and wear next to nothing or probably nothing.  Its not that they are not interested.  Its just safety precations.  If you can't understand that,  then I don't think MM is for you.

Sirena Scott wrote:
...models are probably hesitant to make a phone call and reveal their phone number to a totally unknown (to them) person.  It may take another round of emails back to show that you are actually interested in them as individuals, and not just sending a casting call for which they may never get selected.


I have to agree here. I get way too many emails from photographers who tell me I'm perfect for a project but never follow thru after I tell them I'm interested. That leads me to believe it was a generic email and he has found the models he wants to use.

It could also be something came up...

but I guess the name of the game is clear communication.  Letting the other person know what your needs/expectations are, and taking it from there.  I've been remiss in getting back to a few models letting them know I'm still interested but have had scheduling issues (guess I should do that now).  And there have been a number of models who have contacted me and then after I've replied, never heard from again. One thing I always say to someone (whether a model or anyone in life) is that if you're not interested, just say so.   That way, no one is wasting their time pursuing something that isn't going to happen.

In general though, I don't have a communication problem with seasoned models.  Which is another reason why I tend to like working with models that have been at their craft for a while.

Touscany Photography wrote:
Quit your whining!  You're in NYC.  There's beautiful models on every freakin' corner!  MM is only one of hundreds of resources you should look to for talent.  You have to create your own resources.

Ditto on the stop whining.  If you're in NY of Calif, you can't throw a rock w/o hitting a model.  Boo hoo.  Try learning to close the deal.

VikyL wrote:
I'm right there with you, John.  I've been a member of this site since October.  In that time I've managed to shoot with...ONE photographer off this site.  And it's not for lack of trying.  They don't respond.  They won't set a date.  They don't show up.  Email song and dance.  Meanwhile, I'm booking paid gig after paid other ways (Craig'slist bizzarely, photographers I've worked with before, a casting director I freelance with, friends I have in the magazine industry).  OMP was the same way for me: I got a billion "Desire to work with" messages, but they never went anywhere, and I eventually deleted myself from that site. 

Why am I still here?  I love the message boards.  I resigned myself to the fact that I will never get to shoot with any of you, but you sure are fun to talk to.

Viki, I shoot with lots of models, and I hear this a lot.  I'm sorry so many photogs have wasted your time or faded away, both on OMP and here.  BTW, 3 models I know said they get almost all of their shoots from OMP.  I think the best approach is the shotgun approach.  Get your name out, everywhere, on all the appropriate sites, knowing that few will bear much fruit, but by being on so many sites, you increase your odds.  The model I know who shoots the most uses that approach. And she's not shy about emailing prospects and suggesting shoots.  And she has a mass email mailing list.  She sends chatty, gossipy emails, but of course her real purpose is to remind her circle of photogs that she's alive and well.  It worked on me.  I've shot with her 3 times, partly because her emails keep her in my mind.  :-)

BTW, I've looked at your port, and I'll probably email you directly, somewhere down the road, and invite you to shoot.  It'll be a while b/c there are so many models ahead of you.  No matter.  You probably don't believe me, anyway.  :-)

William Coleman wrote:
Viki, I shoot with lots of models, and I hear this a lot.  I'm sorry so many photogs have wasted your time or faded away, both on OMP and here.  BTW, 3 models I know said they get almost all of their shoots from OMP.  I think the best approach is the shotgun approach.  Get your name out, everywhere, on all the appropriate sites, knowing that few will bear much fruit, but by being on so many sites, you increase your odds.  The model I know who shoots the most uses that approach. And she's not shy about emailing prospects and suggesting shoots.  And she has a mass email mailing list.  She sends chatty, gossipy emails, but of course her real purpose is to remind her circle of photogs that she's alive and well.  It worked on me.  I've shot with her 3 times, partly because her emails keep her in my mind.  :-)

BTW, I've looked at your port, and I'll probably email you directly, somewhere down the road, and invite you to shoot.  It'll be a while b/c there are so many models ahead of you.  No matter.  You probably don't believe me, anyway.  :-)

Oh, believe me, I do this too, and it does work!  ...Everywhere but on this site (and the other one), it seems.  And that's the other thing...I'm not lacking for work.  As I said: paid work even.  But I'd still like to collaborate with people for fun (there's an art director in me dying to get out!  A weird, weird art director).  That said: I don't have time for people to waste my time.  Literally.

I'll believe you, William.  Promise not to break my heart! ;D

CiaraK wrote:
I've had Photographers do that, so I guess it cuts both ways. With that said, I have met some great photographers on here and worked with them so it makes up for the few that waste my time.

I agree to this statement.

Kevin Connery wrote:

CristinaLex wrote:
1. some might want to see what type of project your interested in doing with them

Then ASK. Saying "I'm interested" doesn't help.



Agreed entirely. I always summarize in a note, especailly if we've only discussed it on the phone.


A request that says "phone me for more details" that's replied to with email does show how business-like you are. It says "I don't read" or "I won't follow instructions". I'm not sure that's the direction most people want.

I don't ask for a phone call until the outline of the shoot has been described and there's some interest has been expressed. But I do prefer that phone call at that point; some things are MUCH faster on the phone than via many many email exchanges. And I DO include a phone number in my emails, pretty much from the beginning.

well looking at what i just said about calling an photographer....menaing that some photographers are perverts and will call for the hell of it ...i would not want any photographer telling me he has a good project for me he calls me or i call him and he is some sick GWC.....no thanks...let me know online..and i will email you back..professionally...every model isnt rude and wont right back...those who dont really respond with haste...might not be too serious about what they wanna do...simple....put the model on your shyt list lol

bob cooley wrote:

Who's bush are you blaming?? lol

I'd like to blame some bush too! 

VikyL wrote:

Oh, believe me, I do this too, and it does work!  ...Everywhere but on this site (and the other one), it seems.  And that's the other thing...I'm not lacking for work.  As I said: paid work even.  But I'd still like to collaborate with people for fun (there's an art director in me dying to get out!  A weird, weird art director).  That said: I don't have time for people to waste my time.  Literally.

I'll believe you, William.  Promise not to break my heart! ;D

I just put a Post-it note in my pocket with your MM number.  When I get home, I'll add you into my list of models to contact.  I like to think of myself as a heartbreaker, but I'm not really.  :-)

Mike Walker wrote:
Your NOT a photographic superstar or even a well know name and you are soloiciting for unpaid stock photos...NOT a lucerative business in general for models especially. Models could see that as another possible GWC and so they want to be sure you have SOMETHING that is worth their time. Just my opinion of course. And even getting a single response is worth more than you pay to be here now isn't it? It took a couple of months before I got a lot of response here but now it is equal to that "Other" modeling site i have been on for 6 years! Oh, and I joined her like 6 months ago!
MIke

My problem isn't that I think I'm a "superstar" and I'm disappointed that noone is interested in my offer.  If a model isn't interested in what I'm offering that is fine by me and I understand completely.  Right off the bat I'm telling the model that this does not pay, and that I will ask her to sign a model release, so if a model is not interested in this type of arrangement I do understand. It is not for everyone.

Again, my problem is NOT that models are not interested in my offer.

My post was saying that this site is a waste of time for me when models respond, "I am interested", but then do not call and do not take any other steps to make the shoot actually happen for him or her.

Or maybe the model is not comfortable giving out their phone number until they have talked things over a few times with a complete stranger on the internet.

I agree - to be honest photographers might not want to deal with complete strangers ...especially starting out.

I've found it a little odd sending out lots of information to folks by email - I guess you just want to put in the time ... make a connection and hopefully get some work done.

Good luck to all

John Ricard photography wrote:
I guess at that point I'm supposed to send ANOTHER email??!!? and we're supposed to go back and forth day after day?  I guess some people think model mayhem is another name for My Space.  I'm not looking for email pen pals -just models for legitimate projects. 

Why any model would be "interested" in a project but NOT call to secure a spot as part of that project is totally beyond me...

Hey John:

I see you made it to Mayhem.

I actually see exactly where you're coming from but I think the problem is not actually with the site. It's just the way young people prefer to communicate these days. To me, it's frustrating as hell. But for whatever reason, they have this insistance on using AIM, email, site messages, or whatever. I noticed that sometimes a model will connect with me and I ask them to leave a number or to call me and form there on, contact is lost.

I've even had a few models tell me that it was BETTER to reach by computer rather than the phone - WHAT?????

But please be aware that's not a Mayhem thing. I think it's a generation thing. Dude, we're getting older and our clients ages remain constant but their personality/mentality is ever shifting

00siris wrote:
By the way - for all those interested, John Riccard is a well established fashion/enterainment photographer operating out of New York.

He's shot many well known models and celebrities.

PREACH......

00siris wrote:
By the way - for all those interested, John Riccard is a well established fashion/enterainment photographer operating out of New York.

He's shot many well known models and celebrities.

The why is he wasting his time on a no name site like this looking for models?

E L Fanucchi wrote:
Its a girl thing called tease.

E L

It can't be only him having trouble with models, is it?


Dude, I'm new to photography with less then 1 1/2 years experience and no training, yet I shoot up to 10 women a week because I put myself there.

I just don't understand anyone complaining about a free site.

::shakes head while spinning left and then right::

Craig Thomson wrote:
The why is he wasting his time on a no name site like this looking for models?

What I stated is absolutely true --- no need to lie or embellish

poor thing - you'll learn - (then again ... maybe you wont)

00siris wrote:

What I stated is absolutely true --- no need to lie or embellish

poor thing - you'll learn - (then again ... maybe you wont)

I'll learn what, how to share the models I'm shooting with? I already do that with anywhere from 5 to 20 other photographers at least once a month if not more often.

If your friend were closer, I would offer to share both of the MM models I’m shooting tomorrow night in Seattle. I’m already sharing the models with another good friend and MM photographer.
I still don't understand complaining about a free site...

bob cooley wrote:

This wouldn't work, as almost everyone would end up with a really negative score.

If I get a lot of unwanted questions/offers/requests, I can only imagine the sort of junk that the models must get on a daily basis. 

Answering an email is not requirement, just as you don't have to pick up the phone if you don't want to recieve calls from telemarketers (who often show up as local numbers).

If I had to answer my cel phone every time it rang, I would throw it away.

Likewise, if I'm a model who is recieving offers for work I clearly do not want, or am recieving emails from "GLD"s* (guys looking for dates) and am penalized for not answering them, I will leave the site in a heartbeat.

How about this, Let's use the system in a way that will actually attract people to our offers, and not make them think that we are just spamming them?

Everyone is looking for a reason to blame the system, or the models (or photogs), or the tools.

Since many of us use the system quite successfully, why do you assume it is the systems' fault, and not our own for not using it correctly?


* can I claim originating this acronym?  :-)

Of course, I tend to think of life in simple terms..And if I am not interested in working someone, I'd just send them an e-mail explaining why...

I don't have all the answers..but I am a communication freak that obsessively checks his e-mail every hour, and when someone does not get back to me, it drives me straight up the wall.  I generally can be patient for 24 to 48 hours, but if I don't hear after that, I get pretty annoyed.

Maybe a reply to an initial e-mail can be ignored, but once you DO communicate, then the finish of the conversation should either be an announcement of non-interest, or a photoshoot.  Its not right to leave someone hanging.. Especially someone who is looking to get started (like myself) and needs all the help they can to do so.  Hitting dead end after dead end with models has been more than frustrating for me at times, its been debilitating..  I've been trying to outrace being broke while I was in the last six months of corporate employment, and on six months of unemployment...and that race has now been lost because I was never able to get all the pieces in place that I needed to because too many people disappeared on me.

I try to be courteous to people..but I am not good at swallowing my pride when someone kicks me in the teeth.  So I can understand why some people get really annoyed when people disappear, don't show up, and don't call or e-mail you why, and won't reply to your e-mails to find out what happened after the fact.  I've experienced that enough now, that I wish that someone could figure out either incentives or penalties for not following through.

MainFragger/Brian

Craig Thomson wrote:

Then why is he wasting his time on a no name site like this looking for models?

In no particular order...

1) I like to have new models in my files, rather than the same models that editors have already seen.

2) There are some very good models here (check the resume for Sheryl K, for example)

3) I can deal with models themselves without the hassle of dealing with their agents (now there's a thread we r-e-a-l-l-y don't want to get into).

Craig Thomson wrote:
I still don't understand complaining about a free site...

that's fine - but you're support to that point was a subtle marginalizing John's credit for being on this site.

All I'm saying, sir, is that there are some really accomplished photographers on this site who are well known in the industry. And their bringing up certain points is by no means a suggestion that they are of lesser calibre.

Check out the work of

Amoya:
MSJ Images:
NicoVision:
Goldstock:
MoodyMelon:

These people are all accomplished photographers and you can easily find their work outside of this site.

If you read into what he was saying, you'd see that John's "complaint" is not really about this site at all but more about a certain type of model.

John Ricard photography wrote:
I joined this site about a month ago and so far, its been a big waste of time.  Typically it goes like this...  I browse the model pages until I find a model that may be suited for a project that I am working on.  I send an email to the model with breif details about the project and about myself and I ask the model to CALL if he or she is interested.

If a model does not respond, that is fine with me and I do not contact the model again.

However, if a model IS interested, I would expect the model to call so I can provide full details about the project.  However, instead of a phone call, I get email responses like, "I am very interested."

I guess at that point I'm supposed to send ANOTHER email??!!? and we're supposed to go back and forth day after day?  I guess some people think model mayhem is another name for My Space.  I'm not looking for email pen pals -just models for legitimate projects. 

Why any model would be "interested" in a project but NOT call to secure a spot as part of that project is totally beyond me...

If you'd like to see a sample of 4 email responses that are typical of the sort of responses I've gotten from this site, visit this link:

http://img469.imageshack.us/img469/7795/mm4jz.jpg

I know what you mean I get this response too and I also add the links to my main online port in the email but I just move on and figure it is the nature of the beast.

   I am wondering those jokes that do that I notice contact me months later with some excuse and are still interested in working with me.

Do you get this too?

John Ricard photography wrote:

In no particular order...

1) I like to have new models in my files, rather than the same models that editors have already seen.

2) There are some very good models here (check the resume for Sheryl K, for example)

3) I can deal with models themselves without the hassle of dealing with their agents (now there's a thread we r-e-a-l-l-y don't want to get into).

I think the problem is that this is a free site, since its free not everyone takes it seriously. On here its pretty much a gamble, but there are alot of really professional models on here that take a job offer and commit to it. Its not just online after talking with a few agencies, they have to jrop alot of their models because they are to lazy to go on go see's and some don't even show up to scheduled shoots they have through the agency. Its not just you, alot of photographers on here don't follow through on shoots either. All I can say is good luck with everything, and just ignore the people that dont follow through they would probably be a waste of your time anyway.

John Ricard photography wrote:
I joined this site about a month ago and so far, its been a big waste of time.  Typically it goes like this...  I browse the model pages until I find a model that may be suited for a project that I am working on.  I send an email to the model with breif details about the project and about myself and I ask the model to CALL if he or she is interested.

Why should the model run up his/her phone bill when you're the one initiating the contact?  Or take the chance that you've got caller ID and will start "stalking" them?  Think about it.  Models get a lot of bullshit offers - if you were in their shoes, wouldn't you want to keep things a bit more "impersonal" and anonymous?

If you think the site is a waste of time, go elsewhere.