Photographer
photosbydmp
Posts: 3808
Shepparton-Mooroopna, Victoria, Australia
Model
Shaholly
Posts: 528
Kailua, Hawaii, US
Angela Michelle Perez wrote:
 at the lollery of this thread.
I need to get ready because I have an agency test in a hour I'll be back to read the rest of the fail in this thread. being humble is a lot more attractive dear
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12117
Tampa, Florida, US
Rick Fink wrote:
This is so true!
It's the models image that's out there and I wonder if many photogs really get that.
I know one super talented model who is in a bitter custody dispute with her ex over their child and he's claiming she's a bad mother because she does nudes.
I have been doing this since 1985 and the single most important thing I have learned is how to be a gentleman. Your own words are quite a telling story. With each new post you describe a person who likes to be knee-deep in the models lives, professionally and now personally.
You may think that is a solid business practice but it, in fact, is not business at all. And thus the reason you posted in the Model forum. This was always directed at models and your way of letting them know you're on their side and working for them.
Wonderful, you're a white knight. Embrace it...but please save it for the naive little girls and stop pretending it has anything to do with business.
Unless, of course, you are actually being paid to procure them work?
"I love it when you call me Big Pa-Pa..."
Photographer
Eastfist
Posts: 3589
Green Bay, Wisconsin, US
A trade for pics shoot where money is exchanged isn't a trade for pics shoot anymore.
Retoucher
IdontKnowIForgot
Posts: 3829
Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom
Angela Michelle Perez wrote:
I have agency test . Remember to pay them! since you will be taking "shitty" pics and posting them on the internet.
tarnishing thier faces!
haw-haw
Photographer
Greg Kolack
Posts: 18392
Elmhurst, Illinois, US
Shaholly wrote:
oo big shot exiting Shaholly wrote:
being humble is a lot more attractive dear 
Model
Artemis Bare
Posts: 2195
San Diego, California, US
IdontKnowIforgot wrote:
Remember to pay them! since you will be taking "shitty" pics and posting them on the internet. Bah ha ha ha
Model
Shaholly
Posts: 528
Kailua, Hawaii, US
Greg Kolack --- my thingy keeps err'ing im responding to your last comment to me
*sigh*
I have had this happen to me with numerous photogs. Who, unbeknown to them, have had their, "our" images taken off their sites.. without their authorization
Photographer
A-M-P
Posts: 18465
Orlando, Florida, US
Shaholly wrote:
being humble is a lot more attractive dear Was not humble about what I wrote. Everyone needs to test and that is a fact. When you stop testing you stop growing. You are the one who needs a reality check.
Photographer
Jonny Hel
Posts: 986
London, England, United Kingdom
What happened to llamas paying photographers?
Photographer
WIP
Posts: 15973
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom
Jon LiIIey wrote:
What happened to models paying photographers? You speak of the real world.
Photographer
Rick Fink
Posts: 353
Austin, Texas, US
Jon LiIIey wrote:
What happened to models paying photographers? If models hire photogs they should pay them and then have rights to the images.
Photographer
A-M-P
Posts: 18465
Orlando, Florida, US
IdontKnowIforgot wrote:
Remember to pay them! since you will be taking "shitty" pics and posting them on the internet.
tarnishing thier faces!
haw-haw
of course hahaha
Photographer
DAVfoto
Posts: 2324
New York, New York, US
David Stith wrote:
About model managers.. let's start with say, Ford Model Management. A good model manager makes sure their models work with the best photogs.. that could be TF..
However, if the photog is sub-prime, the model manager should make sure the model is paid. I am not aware of any model managers on MM but there were many on omp, the rules still applies..
In any case, if someone is being paid for the pics from a shoot, both parties should benefit.
David um no.. models with major agencies dont get paid for test shoots, they just dont shoot unless the photographer is of quality and consistency.. its that simple
Photographer
Greg Kolack
Posts: 18392
Elmhurst, Illinois, US
Greg Kolack wrote:
I don't think any photographer here is saying they wouldn't pay a model for a job they are getting paid for - I think most are referring to personal projects.
And chances are if it is for a billboard or ad, there is a client, who would be paying the photographer and the model, as well as the MUA, stylist, etc. Shaholly wrote:
yah i dont know what happened.
*sigh*
I have had this happen to me with numerous photogs. Who, unbeknown to them, have had their, "our" images taken off their sites.. without their authorization Well, first of all, it's not "your" image unless the photographer has specifically signed over ownership to you.
Second, all the photographer had to do was file a DMCA take down notice, and if he really wanted to, could have taken legal action.
Third, if they were in fact stolen, I don't see how you getting paid would have stopped that from happening.
Retoucher
IdontKnowIForgot
Posts: 3829
Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom
Angela Michelle Perez wrote:
Was not humble about what I wrote. Everyone needs to test and that is a fact. When you stop testing you stop growing. You are the one who needs a reality check. +1
Photographer
A-M-P
Posts: 18465
Orlando, Florida, US
Jay Wellen wrote:
um no.. models with major agencies dont get paid for test shoots, they just dont shoot unless the photographer is of quality and consistency.. its that simple +1000
Photographer
WIP
Posts: 15973
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom
Rick Fink wrote:
If models hire photogs they should pay them and then have rights to the images. That's what you call a client. I could be wrong but I think that's how the theory of the paying client works.
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12117
Tampa, Florida, US
Shaholly wrote:
Greg Kolack --- my thingy keeps err'ing im responding to your last comment to me
*sigh*
I have had this happen to me with numerous photogs. Who, unbeknown to them, have had their, "our" images taken off their sites.. without their authorization If it was unbeknown to them, how did they find out? Certainly, at some point it was beknown.
On an unrelated note...Stay In School Kids.
Photographer
Will King Photo
Posts: 1895
Virginia Beach, Virginia, US
It's all about what you bring to the table. If a model approaches me about a shoot and she cannot benefit my portfolio, I will tell her my rates. Not to sound selfish, but this is not a charity. This is a business. The same can be said from a model's perspective. If a learning photographer wants to shoot an experienced model, the model should have every right to ask for compensation.
One more point. When the shoot is over, the model's work is done. The photographer still has editing and retouching to do which can be more time consuming than the shoot.
Photographer
Greg Kolack
Posts: 18392
Elmhurst, Illinois, US
Michael Pandolfo wrote:
Your own words are quite a telling story. With each new post you describe a person who likes to be knee-deep in the models lives, professionally and now personally.
You may think that is a solid business practice but it, in fact, is not business at all. And thus the reason you posted in the Model forum. This was always directed at models and your way of letting them know you're on their side and working for them.
Wonderful, you're a white knight. Embrace it...but please save it for the naive little girls and stop pretending it has anything to do with business.
Unless, of course, you are actually being paid to procure them work?
"I love it when you call me Big Pa-Pa..." Yes - the OP still hasn't answered this question, despite being asked several times.
Greg Kolack wrote:
Again, just please explain exactly what you do when you say you try to find models work.
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 12067
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
Shaholly wrote:
I have had this happen to me with numerous photogs. Who, unbeknown to them, have had their, "our" images taken off their sites.. without their authorization WHAT???????????????
Photographer
Calvin Wallace
Posts: 671
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Models profit far far greater than a photographer does... just saying.
Photographer
Greg Kolack
Posts: 18392
Elmhurst, Illinois, US
Shaholly wrote:
I have had this happen to me with numerous photogs. Who, unbeknown to them, have had their, "our" images taken off their sites.. without their authorization Art of the nude wrote:
WHAT??????????????? Yeah - that kind of confused me. I know it happens, but how does it happen numerous times to the same model? Especially when they are taken from different sites of different photographers.
Photographer
Rick Fink
Posts: 353
Austin, Texas, US
I have a history of working with performers who need to have clear ownership of their images. This is under the "work for hire" category. Much like a videographer or an engineer in a recording studio. Because I have a respect for the creative abilities of the artists I work with I'm aware that it's not always my talent that makes an image rock. c_h_r_i_s wrote:
That's what you call a client. I could be wrong but I think that's how the theory of the paying client works.
Model
Shaholly
Posts: 528
Kailua, Hawaii, US
Michael Pandolfo wrote:
If it was unbeknown to them, how did they find out? Certainly, at some point it was beknown.
On an unrelated note...Stay In School Kids. I saw them on t.v. or in mags etc. You have never experienced this? This is the digital age. Any photo online can be taken and ripped off.
Model
Shaholly
Posts: 528
Kailua, Hawaii, US
Greg Kolack wrote:
Shaholly wrote:
I have had this happen to me with numerous photogs. Who, unbeknown to them, have had their, "our" images taken off their sites.. without their authorization Yeah - that kind of confused me. I know it happens, but how does it happen numerous times to the same model? Especially when they are taken from different sites of different photographers. It has happened to me I'm not exaggerating either. It has made me not want to shoot unless I am paid, for that reason actually.
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21526
Chicago, Illinois, US
Jennifer wrote:
I personally NEVER work *TF, and unless your a nude model there is absolutely no point in doing *TF nudes because they won't help your book, no agency will put them in a portfolio. I have had some of the most prestigious photogs on this site offer a shoot *but only nudes* with a signed release etc. That won't help my book so I don't care how great of a photog it is, I won't do it. Not my genre, not in my best interest. What you do or don't do isn't representative of what most agency models
do. I know many who Test ALL the time and not always with
big name shooters. Years ago, Iman was in Chicago and worked
with a guy she liked. He wasn't some big name dude nor did he
know any Art directors. I'm thinking she might be a more well known name then
you. Crazy because she and MOST fashion models do nudes.
What you do is your business of course and no TF or Tests is your
choice. Not every shoot is about your 'book' I know models who've
worked nude with Mario Testino. Should they not have after all
Elite or Click couldn't use the images. Again many real world agency
models some of the best and known around past and today shot nude
often with new photographers often for free. Either you have a passion
for this or its only about the money.
OP, you have a right to do as you choose. Where you go wrong is
when you decide how you work is how things should be.
Photographer
Danny Does Glamour
Posts: 2346
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Shaholly wrote:
Depends on how good a photog he is, honestly... But the thing I think that is missing in this thread is that you've lost perceptive... A shot is nothing with out a fabulous photog and a makeup artist! That is for sure! However, the model is the face, the body the overall image that is up (in ads, billboards, prints and more often then not, THE INTERNET!!!) Now you don't want to pay your models because its your work and, I understand that. BUT!!! It is not you online or out for the world to look at forever!
Myself along with millions of model photos are on sights like these but then get snagged, ripped of and used on other sites etc.. (weather, you the photog, pays them for taking it or not.
Just think about it... Oh brother.
Photographer
Greg Kolack
Posts: 18392
Elmhurst, Illinois, US
Shaholly wrote:
It has happened to me I'm not exaggerating either. It has made me not want to shoot unless I am paid, for that reason actually. I'm still unclear how this has happened to you numerous times.
And as long as you get some money, you don't care that the images get stolen?
Model
The Original Sin
Posts: 13899
Louisville, Kentucky, US
So, from a llama's perspective- a fulltime, freelance, niche market llama who makes her living in that market... I am not adverse to trade. I do trade, on a pretty regular basis, with many people. However, I have been burned so often and so hard on trade shoots, that I now only trade with people I trust implicitly to deliver the quality of images I need in the genres I need, and that's a pretty narrow field. I also work in various genres that are not my specialty- glamour is one, horror and erotica another. I don't actually need images in those fields- I certainly have a few for display urposes, but they are not my focus. So trading for say... horror, or god forbid, fashion- not really profitable for me. I don't get hired for a lot of that work, I don't often actively pursue it. I would CERTAINLY be willing to do it if a photographer offered- I'm professional in the sense that I do whatever I need to do for the job, and do it 110% to my ability- but trading for it wouldn't be in the cards. I also wouldn't, at this point, trade for art nudes, as I have a huge glut of them, mostly recent, on my portfolios. All that aside- I always sign a release when offered- after reading it, of course. I have never asked for images to come down (except for some taken before my 18th birthday at a Halloween party and mistakenly submitted to an adult site), I've never regretted any of my work. I knew, oing in, that being naked on the Internet was going to cost me job fields, friends and family. I accepted that. It's a given part of life that if you don't want to admit to it, you probably shouldn't do it. There are many people who work solely for profit- be it llamas, photographers, MUAs, etc. I don't mind that, and have paid them where needed. There are also many who shoot purely for "art" and will never pay. Again- do what works for you. I'll tap those people when looking for that genre. There are those of us who do it for both- love of the creation and need for the cash. All have a place. I certainly wouldn't expect someone to shoot a private collector set for free for me- I'd pay them out of the client's budget (and do, often). I also would not shoot art nudes for someone's gallery showing and prints for free- and would feel insulted by the request. Mutual benefit means that both parties get what the need from a shoot- if someone needs content, prints or gallery pieces, grerat. I need to pay my $600/month in bills and $700/month in rent.  So we negotiate, work out an agreeable rate so that everyone gets what they need, and everyone shakes hands, hugs, and walks away happy. Someone else may not be happy with how we concluded our transaction, but as long as THE PARTIES IN THE TRANSACTION are happy- why does it matter? Is doing business (however you do business) on mutually agreeable terms so difficult?
Photographer
Greg Kolack
Posts: 18392
Elmhurst, Illinois, US
Rick Fink wrote:
Because I have a respect for the creative abilities of the artists I work with I'm aware that it's not always my talent that makes an image rock. So are you saying if a photographer doesn't pay his models than they don't have respect for other artists - i.e. models?
Model
Shaholly
Posts: 528
Kailua, Hawaii, US
Greg Kolack wrote:
I'm still unclear how this has happened to you numerous times.
And as long as you get some money, you don't care that the images get stolen? I do care but at least I am getting something out of it. I'll send you a private message to explain better
Retoucher
IdontKnowIForgot
Posts: 3829
Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom
Greg Kolack wrote:
I'm still unclear how this has happened to you numerous times.
And as long as you get some money, you don't care that the images get stolen? yeah im bit confused
people "steal" images all the time.
more than likely half the people in this thread have their images, or images of them or their work in areas unknown to them.
it happens.
it still doesnt take away from the fact, if you do trade for your portfolio, or testing, you are more likely to get more paid work.
Photographer
K E S L E R
Posts: 11574
Los Angeles, California, US
Shaholly wrote:
It has happened to me I'm not exaggerating either. It has made me not want to shoot unless I am paid, for that reason actually. LOL Seriously?
So when you see car accidents you don't want to drive? How about murders? stay at home? LOL
Model
Shaholly
Posts: 528
Kailua, Hawaii, US
Danny Does Glamour wrote:
Oh brother. "the original sin" says it better
Photographer
Greg Kolack
Posts: 18392
Elmhurst, Illinois, US
Shaholly wrote:
I do care but at least I am getting something out of it. I'll send you a private message to explain better Please don't - I'm not interested in a private conversation. I prefer it in an open forum.
Photographer
Rick Fink
Posts: 353
Austin, Texas, US
Greg Kolack wrote:
So are you saying if a photographer doesn't pay his models than they don't have respect for other artists - i.e. models? I did not imply that others don't.
I meant exactly what I said and nothing else.
Retoucher
IdontKnowIForgot
Posts: 3829
Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom
K E S L E R wrote:
LOL Seriously?
So when you see car accidents you don't want to drive? How about murders? stay at home? LOL you put it in better words 
Model
Shaholly
Posts: 528
Kailua, Hawaii, US
K E S L E R wrote:
LOL Seriously?
So when you see car accidents you don't want to drive? How about murders? stay at home? LOL what?! Actually yah, if i were to see a person dead from a car accident I think i'd be more cautious.. seriously Kesler?
|
So we negotiate, work out an agreeable rate so that everyone gets what they need, and everyone shakes hands, hugs, and walks away happy. Someone else may not be happy with how we concluded our transaction, but as long as THE PARTIES IN THE TRANSACTION are happy- why does it matter? 
at the lollery of this thread. 
