The Original Sin  wrote:

You only say that because I give backrubs.

Oh, is THAT what you kids are calling those nowadays? 

Stephen Markman wrote:

NO.  Models do NOT rely on being paid by photographers.  Most real models rely on CLIENTS for their income.   That is in the real world of real, grown-up person modeling.

In internet modeling, the primary payers are GWCs (whose work isn't good enough to attract TF* shoots) and people who shoot content (in which case the photographer is paying the model, but selling the image out the back door to a content host.)

Many photographers here have no reason or incentive to pay models.

You like my work?  Great, come shoot.  You don't like my work?  That's cool too.  We don't have to shoot.

If I get paid, I'll get my model paid.  Short of that, there's really no reason to come in here, like a bull in a china shop, ranting about how photographers need to pay models.  In fact, as someone whose bed and roof depend largely on the generosity of photographers, one might question why you would adopt the tone and position you have taken in this thread.  Then again, it's not my place to tell you how to run your business.

wrong. i have been a paid model for 10years.. i depend on money for my work

K E S L E R wrote:
wow surprised this thread has gone this long.  Lets sumarize...

Shaholly is wrong

Shaholly is beautiful

Shaholly is not going to get paid

Kimberly isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer

Did I miss anything? LOL

your insults just show how hateful you are towards women...why would we want to pose for someone who doesnt respect us?

Rick Fink wrote:
I really think that photogs should generally pay models for shoots!
...
Even if it's a totally trade shoot I'll offer the model $25 for her signature on the release form.

Since my rate is usually X2 or X3 the rate of the model (we're talking local models here) I don't think I owe them anything on top of what they're already getting (images).
$25 would be insulting.  Either pay their full rate or don't.

Kymberly Jane wrote:

your insults just show how hateful you are towards women...why would we want to pose for someone who doesnt respect us?

Because he's effin' KESLER!

Kymberly Jane wrote:

and without us.. ya'all are taking pictures of trees and rocks..

sooo YOU NEED US.. be nicer to us...pay us.. we like eating too...we like to sleep in beds under roofs..and us models DEPEND on being paid by photographers its our only job.

..but most on this thread dont pay us..but make copious amounts of money off our images..does that seem right? no.. you would have nothing without us models.

Dont reply with a crazy Rant about how you hate me..and how i dont belong in this thread..it started with an honest man saying he feels like we deserve compensation for being an instrument of his art. every picture you have ever seen of me online i was paid to take.

edit: how much is my naked body worth in a picture.. NOT FREE thats for sure...how much is Your naked body worth in a picture mister photographer?..too shy to show the twig and berries.. ?..well thats the difference between you AND us.

nuff said.

I'll shoot products, and architecture, i get paid for that too, but when you stop modeling, you stop making money, so no one cares..

btw, most agency models know the more they test with published photographers, the more they get blogged about, the more their name gets published (not necessarily in magazines) but in interviews, then clients such as dior, prada and the like want them in their shows and campaigns.. its that simple, its called networking (shooting is part of the networking)  they dont get paid, and sometimes are paying

Kymberly Jane wrote:
..but most on this thread dont pay us..but make copious amounts of money off our images..does that seem right? no.. you would have nothing without us models.

I actually have never made a cent off any photo I've taken of a model.

I think you are given photographers much more credit than we deserve as far as thinking we make so much money from selling photos.

And many models are perfectly willing to allow photographers to make money off the photos in exchange for getting images or even experience.

I don't understand why there is this "Us vs. Them" with so many models and photographers. If people are willing and happy to work within the parameters they set. I don't begrudge you your decision to get paid - more power to you. But why do you begrudge me the decision to work TF with models who are willing to do that?

Rick Fink wrote:
I just hold models in higher regard.

I hold models in extremely high regard. I think (or hope) that is evidenced by the work in my Portfolio.

Holding them in high regard and making it my personal mission to get them paid

Kymberly Jane wrote:

your insults just show how hateful you are towards women...why would we want to pose for someone who doesnt respect us?

Insults?  I'm just stating what I already observed that was pointed out to me by other members, I didn't assume anything LOL.

Why would I hate women? taken a look at my book?  99.9% women!  I love women

Stephen Markman wrote:
I hold models in extremely high regard. I think (or hope) that is evidenced by the work in my Portfolio.

Holding them in high regard and making it my personal mission to get them paid

Stephen Markman wrote:

Oh, is THAT what you kids are calling those nowadays? 

Put on those smexy jeans and some Springsteen, Markman, I'm coming after you!

Kesler- not a chance in a million you'd ever shoot me BECAUSE you are at the level you are at, and I can't afford you, but you are pretty awesome.  And dead on, so far- except you missed the part where Greg is TFBoozing me.

K E S L E R wrote:
wow surprised this thread has gone this long.  Lets sumarize...

Shaholly is wrong

Shaholly is beautiful

Shaholly is not going to get paid

Kimberly isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer

Did I miss anything? LOL

pretty much everything

Kymberly Jane wrote:

wrong. i have been a paid model for 10years.. i depend on money for my work

But it's not Stphen's or mine or anyone's responsibility to pay you. It's your responsibility to FIND someone who will pay you. No one is obligated to do that.

Kymberly Jane wrote:
wrong. i have been a paid model for 10years.. i depend on money for my work

Well, your omp profile (linked from your MM profile) seems to indicate that you may be having success as a paid model for reasons other than those stated in this thread.

Your omp profile ALSO suggests that your righteous indignation here:

Kymberly Jane wrote:
sex is NEVER involved when Im Hired to Shoot..

might have been a bit misplaced -or, at least, exaggerated.

Kymberly Jane wrote:
your insults just show how hateful you are towards women...why would we want to pose for someone who doesnt respect us?

to put it in words of better understanding- quit digging.

K E S L E R wrote:
wow surprised this thread has gone this long.  Lets sumarize...

Shaholly is wrong

Shaholly is beautiful

Shaholly is not going to get paid

Kimberly isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer

Did I miss anything? LOL

OP is both a sluggo and a white knight.

Rick Fink wrote:

Thanks! Your disdain is reward enough!

I have no disdain for you.  And for what it's worth: the next time you post some white-knighting thread full of self-important proclamations about what the rest of us should do, I probably won't even remember who you are.

SouthFLpix wrote:
What this really boils down to is just a 'white knight' post. I vote that this should be locked as soon as possible to avoid the trainwreck.

X2

Stephen Markman wrote:

I have no disdain for you.  And for what it's worth: the next time you post some white-knighting thread full of self-important proclamations about what the rest of us should do, I probably won't even remember who you are.

ditto

Rick Fink wrote:

Thanks! Your disdain is reward enough!

Now I think you are just trolling.

c_h_r_i_s wrote:
I think a line has to be drawn between internet models and outside world models in regards to who pays who, testing, blah, blah, blah.

Never going to happen around here, and there is no longer a line.
I know several "agency approved" testers who just fuck about and test and even pay to play photographer.

I also know "internet models" who run pretty successful businesses modeling.

Stephen Markman wrote:

NO.  Models do NOT rely on being paid by photographers.  Most real models rely on CLIENTS for their income.   That is in the real world of real, grown-up person modeling.

In internet modeling, the primary payers are GWCs (whose work isn't good enough to attract TF* shoots) and people who shoot content (in which case the photographer is paying the model, but selling the image out the back door to a content host.)

Many photographers here have no reason or incentive to pay models.

You like my work?  Great, come shoot.  You don't like my work?  That's cool too.  We don't have to shoot.

If I get paid, I'll get my model paid.  Short of that, there's really no reason to come in here, like a bull in a china shop, ranting about how photographers need to pay models.  In fact, as someone whose bed and roof depend largely on the generosity of photographers, one might question why you would adopt the tone and position you have taken in this thread.  Then again, it's not my place to tell you how to run your business.

Now Stephen, you know I love you, but you do realize this appears as if you look down upon internet models. So, if a brand new photographer in my area pays my day rate for me to be in front of his camera, this is not modeling? Yes, I make more money off of "real modeling", but I don't fair so poorly off of GWCs either. All money spends the same.

Kymberly Jane wrote:

your insults just show how hateful you are towards women...why would we want to pose for someone who doesnt respect us?

I agree with kesler and I'm a woman

Stephen Markman wrote:

Well, your omp profile (linked from your MM profile) seems to indicate that you may be having success as a paid model for reasons other than those stated in this thread.

Your omp profile ALSO suggests that your righteous indignation here:

might have been a bit misplaced -or, at least, exaggerated.

I should send you my laundry bill, because when I read this post, I spilled my iced coffee on my shirt!

Kymberly Jane wrote:
wrong. i have been a paid llama for 10years.. i depend on money for my work

From GWC or content shooters?

The Original Sin  wrote:
Actually, we ARE just props.  We're part of the scene- lighting, angles, setting, mood, model.  Our job is to be the main focus of a complex image, and become whatever we need to become on set. 

I am not submissive, demure, shy or scared- but I sure as hell will be when asked to be on a bondage/DID set.  I am not serene, ethereal or remote- but if that's what an art nude calls for, I'm on the mark. 

We are there to do a JOB.  We are not special, shiny snowflakes, we are living, breathing furniture to be displayed in the light and setting chosen by the boss- which happens to be whoever is setting the shoot up and holding the payoff.

Simple, basic employment skills- you do the job you are hired to do.  Your real life starts outside the studio.

And this is why I love you. Always the voice of reason.

Angela Michelle Perez wrote:

I agree with kesler and I'm a woman

Self-hatred. You know you want a "twig and berries".

Kymberly Jane wrote:
wrong. i have been a paid model for 10years.. i depend on money for my work

Angela Michelle Perez wrote:
From GWC or content shooters?

Don't be so fucking above it all Angela, Kym has worked right along side me as a hired model for a very good photographer that is currently being published in Germany.
Yes, sometimes we work for GWC's sometimes we do content, and other times we work for companies like EA Games.
Spend enough time in your Agency and you will see the GWC's don't just disappear.

Death of Field wrote:

I know several "agency approved" testers who just fuck about and test and even pay to play photographer.

Seriously !

Bree Addams wrote:

And this is why I love you. Always the voice of reason.

Love you too, sweetness.  And speaking of content and GWCs, we need to set up some stuff when I swing through NC.  I have work for you, my pretty!

Bree Addams wrote:
Now Stephen, you know I love you, but you do realize this appears as if you look down upon internet models. So, if a brand new photographer in my area pays my day rate for me to be in front of his camera, this is not modeling? Yes, I make more money off of "real modeling", but I don't fair so poorly off of GWCs either. All money spends the same.

And Bree, you know I'd personally don chainmail and slay dragons for you BUT, every now and again, some models and some photographers need to be reminded of the differences between the "real" world of modeling and internet modeling.  YES, I have an enormous amount of respect for working internet models and though I do shoot with some Agency models (and aspiring agency-standard models) you know --as I think most people in this thread do-- that I primarily work with internet models and am, in fact, very good friend with many many internet models. I think you (and some others) know that I open my home, nearly every weekend to traveling internet photographers and models, because I understand that there is a huge difference between the real industry world and the world of internet modeling.  I think you know there is also a vicious rumor that I might have dated one or two internet models.

The point is: You have CORRECTLY stated that internet models derive a good portion of their income from GWCs. 

If you go back and read this thread, you'll see that the OP is advocating that photographers --of any/all skill level-- should ALWAYS pay their models.

Now, I know where the vast majority of your REAL modeling income comes from and for those that don't, I think it's sufficient to say that you get paid, by check, drawn on the accounts of multi-national corporations.  These checks are not likely to bounce.  The rest of your modeling income, as I understand it, comes from GWCs.  (I don't know if you do any site "content" work.)  These guys SHOULD pay you because you're way out of their fuckin' league and they should be willing to sacrifice cash (if not their left testicle) for the privilege and honor of shooting with you.

As someone who HAS shot with you, I can verify that it is, indeed, a privilege, honor and total pleasure working with you.

Many of us are NOT GWCs and don't have those same limited options.  Sorry. 
Bree, I adore you, but I think you may want to read the entire thread, in context.

Death of Field wrote:

Never going to happen around here, and there is no longer a line.
I know several "agency approved" testers who just fuck about and test and even pay to play photographer.

I also know "internet models" who run pretty successful businesses modeling.

Any model who is wondering- THIS is the woman to listen to.  She's still my gold standard for an art model, and the fact I haven't shot with her yet makes me want to shoot myself in... maybe the ear.  No one would notice a missing earlobe.

There are agency models, internet models, and lots of things in between.  yOU DON'T HAVE TO BE ONE OR THE OTHER. However, the skill sets needed in all jobs are the same- work ethic, dedication, drive and ambition- as well as a willingness to do what needs done to get the job completed.

The Original Sin  wrote:
Actually, we ARE just props.  We're part of the scene- lighting, angles, setting, mood, model.  Our job is to be the main focus of a complex image, and become whatever we need to become on set. 

I am not submissive, demure, shy or scared- but I sure as hell will be when asked to be on a bondage/DID set.  I am not serene, ethereal or remote- but if that's what an art nude calls for, I'm on the mark. 

We are there to do a JOB.  We are not special, shiny snowflakes, we are living, breathing furniture to be displayed in the light and setting chosen by the boss- which happens to be whoever is setting the shoot up and holding the payoff.

Simple, basic employment skills- you do the job you are hired to do.  Your real life starts outside the studio.

Well said.

The Original Sin  wrote:

Love you too, sweetness.  And speaking of content and GWCs, we need to set up some stuff when I swing through NC.  I have work for you, my pretty!

Got a rough date yet? And you know you're welcome to my guest room

Kymberly Jane wrote:
and without us.. ya'all are taking pictures of trees and rocks..

sooo YOU NEED US.. be nicer to us...pay us.. we like eating too...we like to sleep in beds under roofs..and us models DEPEND on being paid by photographers its our only job.

..but most on this thread dont pay us..but make copious amounts of money off our images..does that seem right? no.. you would have nothing without us models.

Dont reply with a crazy Rant about how you hate me..and how i dont belong in this thread..it started with an honest man saying he feels like we deserve compensation for being an instrument of his art. every picture you have ever seen of me online i was paid to take.

edit: how much is my naked body worth in a picture.. NOT FREE thats for sure...how much is Your naked body worth in a picture mister photographer?..too shy to show the twig and berries.. ?..well thats the difference between you AND us.

nuff said.

I'm not shy.... I show off my berries

But at the end of the day, how can photographers pay the model when they don't have a client that pays them.... Model's need to understand that clients pay photographers and then photographers pay models...

No client no money for the photographer and also for the model.... If the photographer and model wish to work together and the both like each others work where they other feels being paid by images is good enough then good for them... If you are not then move on and wait/look for photographers that are being paid by a third party to pay you

Conceptually Black wrote:

I should send you my laundry bill, because when I read this post, I spilled my iced coffee on my shirt!

If you kidnap AJ and bring her with you to NYC, I will personally deliver your coffee-stained shirt to my dry cleaner.

But while we wait for the return of your shirt, I insist on drunken debauchery.

/end threadjack