Greg Kolack wrote:

It doesn't matter if she just came into the thread - she made what many felt to be a stupid comment, which had nothing to do with anything said in this thread.

and BAM you all talk about ME and not the thread topic..

WIN..

Implications Photo wrote:
Not against barter. That is how is used to be done all the time. You shot some stuff for her and she modeled some stuff for you. You then went your separate ways using what you got to promote yourself for paying clients.

However, I prefer to hire models to do the modeling I want and get a release. I get better work from the model and the is no misunderstanding about what is going on. Most of the models on MM are doing it for the money since there is so little actual modeling work out there compared to the number of models seeking work. So, lets give them some work. If we shoot some stuff that they particularly want then the photographers fee can offset the modeling fee.

Works both ways:
Models need to ponder shoots this way:
"I prefer to hire photographers to do the shooting I want and get a release. I get better work from the photographer and there is no misunderstanding about what is going on. Most of the photographers on MM are doing it for the money since there is so little actual photography work out there compared to the number of photographers seeking work. So, lets give them some work. If we model some stuff that they particularly want then the modeling fee can offset the photographer's fee."
My $0.02 worth

Kymberly Jane wrote:
My hero.

Rick Fink wrote:
Thanks!

And if you hire me I'll be sure to give you a fair price!

It's not about the skill of the model or the photog- It's about who gets ownership of the images!

Ok, at least now I'm sure that you're a "model manager", all of your responses verify that. What percentage do you charge "your models"? Just so the models who are following this will know what to expect. And you'll get them ownership of all images? AND $100 an hour (as you previously stated)? You must be really, really good!

I wish you all kinds of luck getting those terms

Greg Kolack wrote:

It doesn't matter if she just came into the thread - she made what many felt to be a stupid comment, which had nothing to do with anything said in this thread.

So what?

How many photogs here have tried to push this thread over the top so that they can have some fun?

Rick Fink wrote:

So what?

How many photogs here have tried to push this thread over the top so that they can have some fun?

It's called threadjacking - I don't see any photographer who has done that.

Greg Kolack wrote:

First drink is on me when you come to Chicago...

Jim Beam Red Stag.  You might as well just buy a bottle, and we'll call it TFBooze.

Eric Walton wrote:
I get it. You're joking. For a minute I thought you were trying make a valid point, but now I realize the joke is entirely on me. Good one. Really nice. The prostitution metaphor is excellent and in no way demeans the entire industry.

Well, NO, you obviously do NOT "get it."  If you "GOT IT" you'd see that I was drawing an analogy between Sluggos and Pimps.

It was not intended as a joke.  It was intended to be somewhat sardonic but was intended to convey a very serious point about the premise of this entire thread.







(When you're done Googling "Sardonic" - I'll be off in the corner, slashing at my wrists that it was necessary to even post an explanation)

In other news: People, we seriously need to support increased funding for public education.  SERIOUSLY!

Greg Kolack wrote:
First drink is on me when you come to Chicago...

The Original Sin  wrote:
Jim Beam Red Stag.  You might as well just buy a bottle, and we'll call it TFBooze.

I'll even pay you $25 for a release.

(And I don't mean that sexually...)

Shaholly wrote:

I am not JUST a prop I am also a person in this business.  And you are 100 % Right... I do a "JOB" and when I do my job I expect to get paid!

You're very pretty.  You're also dead wrong.  You will be asked to leave early or not shot at all the moment you try to assert your "rights" on a photographer's set.  They are in charge, unless you are paying them.  They tell you how to move, when to smile, where to pose, what to emote.  They know what they are seeing.  You do not, unless you have some sort of astral projection trick that allows you to look through the viewfinder with them.

To quote one of my FAVORITE set sayings- "If it doesn't feel funky, fucked up, awkward or painful- you're doing it wrong!"

Rick Fink wrote:
I meant new to the thread.

And if we all bitch slap each other how are we going to convince anyone of our genius?

"When a true genius appears in this world, you may know him by this sign: that all the Dunces are in a Confederacy against him."

                --Jonathan Swift


To answer your question, I don't generally consider myself a "genius" - though I generally just look at who is disagreeing with me and that certainly helps bolster the hypothesis that I might be one.

Greg Kolack wrote:

Greg Kolack wrote:
First drink is on me when you come to Chicago...

I'll even pay you $25 for a release.

(And I don't mean that sexually...)

Done.  3rd weekend of April?

The Original Sin  wrote:

You're very pretty.  You're also dead wrong.  You will be asked to leave early or not shot at all the moment you try to assert your "rights" on a photographer's set.  They are in charge, unless you are paying them.  They tell you how to move, when to smile, where to pose, what to emote.  They know what they are seeing.  You do not, unless you have some sort of astral projection trick that allows you to look through the viewfinder with them.

To quote one of my FAVORITE set sayings- "If it doesn't feel funky, fucked up, awkward or painful- you're doing it wrong!"

You are making my day so much better.  Granted im not going to treat a model like a bitch on set, I'm honestly very nice on set, but if you start telling me how to do my job or start telling me to pay you or whatever it is.. get the fuck off my set

Shaholly wrote:

I am not JUST a prop I am also a person in this business.  And you are 100 % Right... I do a "JOB" and when I do my job I expect to get paid!

I am. I am an instrument that the photographer uses to make art. I get paid too (usually) but I am still a "prop"

The Original Sin  wrote:

You're very pretty.  You're also dead wrong.  You will be asked to leave early or not shot at all the moment you try to assert your "rights" on a photographer's set.  They are in charge, unless you are paying them.  They tell you how to move, when to smile, where to pose, what to emote.  They know what they are seeing.  You do not, unless you have some sort of astral projection trick that allows you to look through the viewfinder with them.

To quote one of my FAVORITE set sayings- "If it doesn't feel funky, fucked up, awkward or painful- you're doing it wrong!"

wait... first of all I thought you wanted to get paid?

The Original Sin  wrote:

Done.  3rd weekend of April?

Easter weekend? So far, so good.

Jay Wellen wrote:

You are making my day so much better.  Granted im not going to treat a model like a bitch on set, I'm honestly very nice on set, but if you start telling me how to do my job or start telling me to pay you or whatever it is.. get the fuck off my set

I've seen a lot of prettier, younger girls get that exact same statement when their inner diva came out on set. 

Pretty is as pretty does- and there's always another warm body to step in front of the lens.

Stephen Markman wrote:
Well, NO, you obviously do NOT "get it."  If you "GOT IT" you'd see that I was drawing an analogy between Sluggos and Pimps.

It was not intended as a joke.  It was intended to be somewhat sardonic but was intended to convey a very serious point about the premise of this entire thread.







(When you're done Googling "Sardonic" - I'll be off in the corner, slashing at my wrists that it was necessary to even post an explanation)

In other news: People, we seriously need to support increased funding for public education.  SERIOUSLY!

How is it possible that I barely speak english and I understood what you said and meant.

Greg Kolack wrote:

Easter weekend? So far, so good.

Good Friday/That Saturday is what I was thinking.  We have to go up to pick up my guy's little boy that weekend.

The Original Sin  wrote:
You're very pretty.  You're also dead wrong.  You will be asked to leave early or not shot at all the moment you try to assert your "rights" on a photographer's set.  They are in charge, unless you are paying them.  They tell you how to move, when to smile, where to pose, what to emote.  They know what they are seeing.  You do not, unless you have some sort of astral projection trick that allows you to look through the viewfinder with them.

To quote one of my FAVORITE set sayings- "If it doesn't feel funky, fucked up, awkward or painful- you're doing it wrong!"

Shaholly wrote:
wait... first of all I thought you wanted to get paid?

What does that have to do with anything she said?

And she gets paid all the time.

Rick Fink wrote:
No models are props.

I think the term is ' coat hanger' prop is used but not so often.

Angela Michelle Perez wrote:

How is it possible that I barely speak english and I understood what you said and meant.

I learned a long time ago: just because someone SPEAKS with an accent, don't assume that they THINK with an accent. 

The point I was making was not that complex.  It was stated in simple terms.  The fact that English is not your first language does not, de facto make you an IDIOT.

Be proud: there are people for whom English IS their first language for whom the analogy was a) wasted; and b) (apparently) insulting.

Jay Wellen wrote:
You are making my day so much better.  Granted im not going to treat a model like a bitch on set, I'm honestly very nice on set, but if you start telling me how to do my job or start telling me to pay you or whatever it is.. get the fuck off my set

Shaholly wrote:

wait... first of all I thought you wanted to get paid?

I do get paid.  Over and over again, by a LOT of regulars, because I am exactly as advertised.  I'm fun to shoot, I will offer suggestions and advice WHEN ASKED, and I will be a pretty doll who moves, turns, smiles, bends, twists and screams when told to.  I have no ego on set- I do my job, and I'm damn good at it.  But my ego is for when the camera is put away and the shoot is over.  Until that point, I am a tool, a doll, a piece of beautiful art.

I'm doing my 10th shoot with one person, 5th shoot with another, and 4th shoot with yet another Thursday and Friday.  They hire me because they know exactly what they get- me, 110% devoted to THEIR images.  ANd at the end, they pay me, I hug their necks, we catch up for a few or grab lunch, and then we part ways till the next shoot.

c_h_r_i_s wrote:

I think the term is ' coat hanger' prop is used but not so often.

I put all models in the performer category.

Shaholly wrote:
wait... first of all I thought you wanted to get paid?

you need to realize, that i can count probably 10000 agency llamas within 3 cities, yes 3 cities, and you arent even an agency llama, llamas dont deserve to get paid unless they are casted for a certain job and rock it.. just as a photographer isnt deserved to be paid just because he may have 3k- 20k or even 100k in equipment, if he cant make the shot look better then the last (talking about a clients last campaign or catalog) then hes not going to get paid.

The Original Sin  wrote:
To quote one of my FAVORITE set sayings- "If it doesn't feel funky, fucked up, awkward or painful- you're doing it wrong!"

Jay Wellen wrote:

you need to realize, that i can count probably 10000 agency models within 3 cities, yes 3 cities, and you arent even an agency model, models dont deserve to get paid unless they are casted for a certain job and rock it.. just as a photographer isnt deserved to be paid just because he may have 3k- 20k or even 100k in equipment, if he cant make the shot look better then the last (talking about a clients last campaign or catalog) then hes not going to get paid.

I do have an agency actually.

Rick Fink wrote:
I put all llamas in the performer category.

I've also been a dancer, an equestrian, and performed on stages.  I put it on l;ike a coat, and become what is needed on set.  I take it off, put it in the locker and become myself as soon as the lights go down.

Performers are props- instruments through which to set a scene and tell a story.

Rick Fink wrote:
No models are props.

and without us.. ya'all are taking pictures of trees and rocks..

sooo YOU NEED US.. be nicer to us...pay us.. we like eating too...we like to sleep in beds under roofs..and us models DEPEND on being paid by photographers its our only job.

..but most on this thread dont pay us..but make copious amounts of money off our images..does that seem right? no.. you would have nothing without us models.

Dont reply with a crazy Rant about how you hate me..and how i dont belong in this thread..it started with an honest man saying he feels like we deserve compensation for being an instrument of his art. every picture you have ever seen of me online i was paid to take.

edit: how much is my naked body worth in a picture.. NOT FREE thats for sure...how much is Your naked body worth in a picture mister photographer?..too shy to show the twig and berries.. ?..well thats the difference between you AND us.

nuff said.

The Original Sin  wrote:

I do get paid.  Over and over again, by a LOT of regulars, because I am exactly as advertised.  I'm fun to shoot, I will offer suggestions and advice WHEN ASKED, and I will be a pretty doll who moves, turns, smiles, bends, twists and screams when told to.  I have no ego on set- I do my job, and I'm damn good at it.  But my ego is for when the camera is put away and the shoot is over.  Until that point, I am a tool, a doll, a piece of beautiful art.

I'm doing my 10th shoot with one person, 5th shoot with another, and 4th shoot with yet another Thursday and Friday.  They hire me because they know exactly what they get- me, 110% devoted to THEIR images.  ANd at the end, they pay me, I hug their necks, we catch up for a few or grab lunch, and then we part ways till the next shoot.

FWIW, I've shot Sin and she's one of my favorite Props.

The Original Sin  wrote:

I do get paid.  Over and over again, by a LOT of regulars, because I am exactly as advertised.  I'm fun to shoot, I will offer suggestions and advice WHEN ASKED, and I will be a pretty doll who moves, turns, smiles, bends, twists and screams when told to.  I have no ego on set- I do my job, and I'm damn good at it.  But my ego is for when the camera is put away and the shoot is over.  Until that point, I am a tool, a doll, a piece of beautiful art.

I'm doing my 10th shoot with one person, 5th shoot with another, and 4th shoot with yet another Thursday and Friday.  They hire me because they know exactly what they get- me, 110% devoted to THEIR images.  ANd at the end, they pay me, I hug their necks, we catch up for a few or grab lunch, and then we part ways till the next shoot.

Okay then we are on the same page... I am a great model I do whats asked for me.. I push myself get, cut up cruised, all in the name of art.. I think there is some miscommunication somewhere in this thread.

Rick Fink wrote:
I put all llamas in the performer category.

Then you don't live in the real world.

Phrase coined by Lisa Fonssagrives and still used a lot.
Models don't perform they llama.

The Original Sin  wrote:

I've also been a dancer, an equestrian, and performed on stages.  I put it on l;ike a coat, and become what is needed on set.  I take it off, put it in the locker and become myself as soon as the lights go down.

Performers are props- instruments through which to set a scene and tell a story.

I just hold models in higher regard.

Stephen Markman wrote:

FWIW, I've shot Sin and she's one of my favorite Props.

You only say that because I give backrubs.

c_h_r_i_s wrote:
Then you don't live in the real world.

Phrase coined by Lisa Fonssagrives and still used a lot.
Models don't perform they llama.

Oh really.

Rick Fink wrote:
I just hold models in higher regard.

Up in the tall tower where you can keep an eye on them... How many miles to a bushel of oats does that horse get?

Kymberly Jane wrote:

and without us.. ya'all are taking pictures of trees and rocks..

sooo YOU NEED US.. be nicer to us...pay us.. we like eating too...we like to sleep in beds under roofs..and us models DEPEND on being paid by photographers its our only job.

..but most on this thread dont pay us..but make copious amounts of money off our images..does that seem right? no.. you would have nothing without us models.

Dont reply with a crazy Rant about how you hate me..and how i dont belong in this thread..it started with an honest man saying he feels like we deserve compensation for being an instrument of his art. every picture you have ever seen of me online i was paid to take.

nuff said.

NO.  Models do NOT rely on being paid by photographers.  Most real models rely on CLIENTS for their income.   That is in the real world of real, grown-up person modeling.

In internet modeling, the primary payers are GWCs (whose work isn't good enough to attract TF* shoots) and people who shoot content (in which case the photographer is paying the model, but selling the image out the back door to a content host.)

Many photographers here have no reason or incentive to pay models.

You like my work?  Great, come shoot.  You don't like my work?  That's cool too.  We don't have to shoot.

If I get paid, I'll get my model paid.  Short of that, there's really no reason to come in here, like a bull in a china shop, ranting about how photographers need to pay models.  In fact, as someone whose bed and roof depend largely on the generosity of photographers, one might question why you would adopt the tone and position you have taken in this thread.  Then again, it's not my place to tell you how to run your business.