Good Egg Productions wrote:
And if you DO post, be sure to accompany it with a large photo every time.  JUST wide enough to not mess up MM's forum alignment, but big and colorful.  Even if it only vaguely has anything to do with the forum topic.

I hear it really works.

Lol Greg

Axioma wrote:
Why should they if they do not feel the need? Some amazing models never post, they seem to be doing just fine. They're probably doing some productive shit .

What happened to letting people handle their own business/hobby the way they seem fit?

Btw, if you want to discover new models, there's a neat little thing called 'browse'.

I don't know -- I just saw three models I had never seen before in this thread

Hai!

I wish the forum did not have as much us against them mentality -- I' rather fight with other photographers than models any day .

Select Models wrote:

Cool... in my ever so humble opinion, it's much easier to pickup on an individual's 'personality' in a forum than trying to read into it on their profiles...

Unfortunately that may be misleading since some (I originally wrote "most") models tend to find themselves in a defence mode due to some people's tendency to hold others to every word they type.

I got chatting to a model on another modelling site. In those forums she comes across as very "brash" but in PMs where she's not "defending" herself all the time she is much more relaxed.

You can find out a little about someone but you do have to keep in context to the whole discussion.

VikyL wrote:
I post infrequently because a lot of the threads just devolve into the same handful of photographers bashing models (whom they always define only as young women) in one way or another and there's very little point in trying to get a word in between their diatribes.

Amen! I will be honest i do not post into the threads often only because no matter what the topic is..it ends up turning into photographers bashing me and telling me how inexperienced and dumb I am. I think there is a certain way to politely say things to people and I find sometimes some photographers can be egotistical and overly harsh.

E L I N wrote:
I only post when I feel like I have something to add to the conversation. I do read the forums a lot though, because I find some informations on here that are very useful and want to learn as much as I can.

That's primarily the same reason I visit the industry forums.  There's 1000's that don't participate here that I'm sure could contribute some great pearls of wisdom...

VikyL wrote:
I post infrequently because a lot of the threads just devolve into the same handful of photographers bashing models (whom they always define only as young women) in one way or another and there's very little point in trying to get a word in between their diatribes.

This.

On top of this.

PhotographybyT wrote:
Maybe those lurkers prefer to participate in other types of social media or other website forums and don't have the time to participate very much or at all on MM forums.

VikyL wrote:
I post infrequently because a lot of the threads just devolve into the same handful of photographers bashing models (whom they always define only as young women) in one way or another and there's very little point in trying to get a word in between their diatribes.

+1

There are hardly any forums I can go into without my blood pressure rocketing. For the most part, I try to stay out of it, but my beliefs are deep-rooted and I have a hard time biting my tongue...

Really though, if almost every model in here has +1ed this quote, that's obviously note-worthy!!

Anna Vanston wrote:
Also, I'm kicking back with my popcorn and just WAITING for the regular bashing photographers to come on this forum and tell us we're all wrong about how we feel XD

Hey Anna... it's moderators like Dekilah (above) that we put our faith into... in the hopes that a few of the obstinate 'bash boys' have learned their lesson and spent enough time in the brig to 'see the light and change their ways'...

VikyL wrote:
I post infrequently because a lot of the threads just devolve into the same handful of photographers bashing models (whom they always define only as young women) in one way or another and there's very little point in trying to get a word in between their diatribes.

This.

There is little point for a model to wade through five pages of opinion, insult and lecture, to find the one professional answer, when she can directly contact that one professional herself and ask his or her opinion, without being the trophy of a rutting season between photographers, who have no customers and make themselves feel big, by making someone else feel small.

VikyL wrote:
I post infrequently because a lot of the threads just devolve into the same handful of photographers bashing models (whom they always define only as young women) in one way or another and there's very little point in trying to get a word in between their diatribes.

^THIS^

Thank You!

VikyL wrote:
I post infrequently because a lot of the threads just devolve into the same handful of photographers bashing models (whom they always define only as young women) in one way or another

I know outing these 'bash punks' on this thread is not permitted... BUT... you could take just a few seconds to CAM these jerks... and do us all a big favor.  Did you happen to see a few of them HERE?... cause there's a few bashers who have recently been added...

https://www.modelmayhem.com/probationlog.php

VikyL wrote:
It's not an excuse.  It is literally why I do not participate in the forums.  The general vibe is toxic, and the advice given is often enragingly incorrect.  Moderators only brig for unsolicited critiques and personal attacks, not the often expressed ugliness against models in general.

Well said.
I used to post a lot but found it is pointless to try and counter the general anti model/mysogenistic vibe from a vocal minority of photographers. So now I lurk when I can be bothered; which isn't often.

I don't think I have ever been booked by a photographer active in forums btw : so exposure isn't a motivation for posting as most of those one debates with are likely to be thousands of miles apart.

I was abused in a thread a few months back and not only did the mods fail to uphold their own forum rules against personal attack, they brigged me. That finished me with the place.

There is plenty of work and networking on the site but the forum is not the way to get/do it. Some threads are informative, but most decay into toxicity especially in this model collquoy area. The general meme has become that MM models are amateur, unreliable, not worth paying, too short, unprofessional; etc. They ridicule as unprofessional concern about being nude with someone you have never met alone (and the nerve to compare it to working with a team on a fashion shoot) etc etc. with the objective appearing to be to destroy model confidence and encourage the idea they should model for free, turn up without a chaperone, or propogate the lie that one must get one's boobs out to be worth paying. The latter is a fallacy incidentally since if one is not extremely careful nude work can ruin any chance one has of getting work in other fields of modelling. That doesn't mean one shouldn't model nude, but it does mean that the idea that's the only work models under 5ft 10" can get is nude is not correct. And that those who do model nude should be appreciated rather photographers expecting/demanding it.


So there is no point in engaging with this attitude. I am only posting this because the thread was brought to my attention by a photographer who agrees with the general drift that other models have also given here and asked for me to give my input.

Select Models wrote:
ATTENTION MODELS!... have you just been lurking out there and not participating in this forum?... and if so... WHY?  Do you not realize just how much more exposure your MM port and bio page can receive if you just jump in here (or on any other forum) once in awhile and say HI?

I know we'll see loads of 'the regulars' posting their reasons why the newbies or some of the 'long timers' don't or won't participate... and I'd like to hear those reasons... BUT... I'm rolling out the red carpet for first time model posters here.  If you've never chimed in before... LET'S HEAR FROM YA!  Hoping to see some shiney new faces here on this thread!...

Without having read all the other responses -- I'm sorry -- I'd say the main reason for not posting on the forums is... they have nothing to add. What's the sense of posting on here to get exposure if you sound like a complete dunce?

Amelia Vane wrote:
I'd say the main reason for not posting on the forums is... they have nothing to add. What's the sense of posting on here to get exposure if you sound like a complete dunce?

Are you saying that there's THOUSANDS of topics listed here every month over dozens of forums (and elsewhere) that one may have no knowledge on and have absolutely nothing worthwhile to contribute?  That would be pretty sad if it was true.

If one displays a track record of appearing like a dunce in multiple forums... there's a pretty good chance they'll share that same track record in the brick and mortar world...

Dekilah wrote:
It is possible that this thread has opened the "regular bashers" eyes a bit. Maybe everyone is getting a better picture of why more models do not post and models are seeing that we want them to post too. I think we could let the "regular bashers" have a second chance instead of just assuming they will jump on the same pattern of behavior again. And I know that sounds optimistic, but we should all be working on this if we want it to change. Rather than inviting the same behavior by waiting for it, let us just try to look past it.

And as always, if you are seeing an issue, please CAM it.  We mods are doing our best, myself in particular, to keep tabs on this forum as much as we can, but if you pinpoint something specific, chances are we can catch it faster.

But instead of focusing on the negative, how about we focus on the positive ^_^ I have seen several new models I have not seen posting before and I hope they will stick around and share their thoughts when they have time and see an opportunity to do so.

What are you thoughts on making this section exclusive to models only for posting ?
Seems the best compromise to me

Emma Anne wrote:
Great thread and great responses from models! Thanks for saying what needs to be said. I'm pretty new to these forums and relatively new to modeling. I came here to get some information and if I have a particular question I want answered. I have found that I can have most of my questions answered without posting.

When I have posted, I've found a line up of ornery people (mostly male photographers) ready to gang up on people who are just innocently asking questions or offering their opinions or knowledge. I've even been lured into saying regrettable things trying to defend myself. Now I've come to the realization that these forums should be taken with a grain of salt. Some people are very passionate about these forums and take it much too seriously.

I comment when I'm bored and "lurk" when I want to learn something. I'm definitely learning not to get involved in pointless arguments and conversations egged on by people who seem to only have Internet forums like this one as a social outlet.

I don't see forums as a good way to gain exposure or a good way to judge whether or not someone is good to work with. Many people seem to have split personalities (who they are on the Internet and who they are in the world where there are real consequences), myself included. I'll admit that I have been much more argumentative and hostile on the Internet than I am normally. Although, not nearly as much as many others I've seen.

Anyway...I've decided that if I do post here it will usually be on OT on light topics. Even then, the attacks and goading still happen. Oh well. Final word: The forums are for entertainment purposes only and I will have limited participation because of all the negativity.

Interesting commentary... but you wanna know the REAL BOTTOM LINE behide this message?  If you wouldn't have posted here, I would have never seen your port... great images by the way...

Select Models wrote:
Are you saying that there's THOUSANDS of topics listed here every month over dozens of forums (and elsewhere) that one may have no knowledge on and have absolutely nothing worthwhile to contribute?  That would be pretty sad if it was true.

If one displays a track record of appearing like a dunce in multiple forums... there's a pretty good chance they'll share that same track record in the brick and mortar world...

It can be the contrary. Why would a published scientist refuse to post in a forum thread concerning a field that is their speciality? Think about it. I shall leave it at that except to say some people don't actually want to hear from  people who have something to contribute. This I would imagine affects a people in a great many number of fields in which they are engaged professionally. Say something that challenges somebody's prejudices and one gets shot down with personal abuse because that is the last refuge of those compromised. Of course if we happen to be female we must be liars, bitches or bimbos to boot.

Even for models with a decent following under their own name or a cultivated business psudeonym, that can be very damaging to her reputation if she gets into a forum brawl with someone whose MM name has no possible connection with their real business so they feel free to shoot someone down. So it is Google which can be the problem as much as the site.

Eliza C wrote:
It can be the contrary. Why would a published scientist refuse to post in a forum thread concerning a field that is their speciality? Think about it. I shall leave it at that except to say some people don't actually want to hear from  people who have something to contribute. This I would imagine affects a people in a great many number of fields in which they are engaged professionally. Say something that challenges somebody's prejudices and one gets shot down with personal abuse because that is the last refuge of those compromised. Of course if we happen to be female we must be liars, bitches or bimbos to boot.

Even for models with a decent following under their own name or a cultivated business psudeonym, that can be very damaging to her reputation if she gets into a forum brawl with someone whose MM name has no possible connection with their real business so they feel free to shoot someone down. So it is Google which can be the problem as much as the site.

WOW... that's a lot to think about... thank God we don't have any published rocket science models here.  Gonna stick a fork in my ear and stir it up for a few minutes on this one...

Select Models wrote:
WOW... that's a lot to think about... thank God we don't have any published rocket science models here.  Gonna stick a fork in my ear and stir it up for a few minutes on this one...

Well if there were no doubt there would be plenty of people telling said rocket expert they were lying, didn't know what they were talking about or just giving unsolicited critique or making snide personal comments if all else fails! The point being the atmosphere not just in this forum but many other net ones doesn't encourage people to discuss their field of interest or expertise. And if one does and it decays into such toxicity it's there on google.

So I'd imagine not just models but also other photographers etc tend to avoid contributing. It's a general internet problem as well as an MM one.

And so as you have heard....models don't feel comfortable contributing.

It is a particularly special case too with models. If you guys get in a forum brawl and someone has a go at you personally you may have your work or credibility as a photographer questioned. But with a model....the attack is often against how she looks to boot. Now just imagine that for a moment. Imagine that your face and body and stats were on your profile. Would you enter into a forum with the risk that someone may criticise how you personally look? In modelling self confidence counts for a lot and you are likely to have it dragged in the mud. If that happened to a photographer it doesn't matter - if a photographer got called a fat middle aged slob for example than well it doesn't affect his ability to shoot. But if a woman got told she was fat, too short, big nose, too many tattoos, whatever it may be - then that will likely affect her ability to perform. If a model is doing rather well for herself without being told all that stuff then why would she be interested in inviting it by entering these forums? I think the most amusing one I had is I got told in a forum thread that I wasn't good looking enough to be a model and the photographer said he could do better shooting the local librarian. Water off a duck's back to me because I have achieved more than I ever hoped to modelling professionally full time for several years. But to a new girl that kind of comment could be upsetting.

Then there is the general image of models being dumb. But there have been threads where it is clear there are many very well educated ones but the general meme propagated by some photographers is that we are not very bright, know nothing about the industry or anything else for that matter, and need to be told how to behave and act professionally. Even down to being told how we must give our phone numbers out and be at the photographer's beck and call and that we are some kind of failure in social skills if we don't.

So all these things stop models contributing. I for one have tried to counter these things but now I am fed up with it.

BTHPhoto wrote:
I have no doubt at all that the model bashing keeps many models from posting here.  It's been a problem on MM since the beginning.

i do not believe that it is model bashing in particular that we shooters engage, but bashing any and everybody, model or otherwise. our egos are high maintenance.

nyk fury wrote:

i do not believe that it is model bashing in particular that we shooters engage, but bashing any and everybody, model or otherwise. our egos are high maintenance.

Yours isn't. Some actually don't realise how talented they actually are

VikyL wrote:
I post infrequently because a lot of the threads just devolve into the same handful of photographers bashing models (whom they always define only as young women) in one way or another and there's very little point in trying to get a word in between their diatribes.

Agree!!!!
i don't post too much. To many times a thread starts as a valid question, or asking for an opinion, and it ends up bashing the OP many times on something that was not even the original question. i do enjoy an participate on the threads that try to help the person posing the question or problem.

nyk fury wrote:

i do not believe that it is model bashing in particular that we shooters engage, but bashing any and everybody, model or otherwise. our egos are high maintenance.

But does it have to be that way?  I don't think so.

Nicolette wrote:
Because there are plenty of photographers here who are [or certainly believe they are] more qualified to answer a model's questions in a model forum than... well... than models.

So I don't really come here anymore.

That is a shame.  You are one of the better, more experienced models on here.  We had a great shoot when you were out here in California.  I've been doing my best to stay out of this part of the forum, as I'd rather see models like you posting than the overwhelming number of photographers (myself included) who post in this section!