Patrick Walberg wrote:

That is a shame.  You are one of the better, more experienced models on here.  We had a great shoot when you were out here in California.  I've been doing my best to stay out of this part of the forum, as I'd rather see models like you posting than the overwhelming number of photographers (myself included) who post in this section!

Well, thank you.
It's just tiring to get perpetually shut down [as a model] in the model forum. I don't go into the photography forum and harp on you guys. I don't tell you how to do your job.

There used to be a real feeling of camaraderie in the model forum, but that's long gone. These are the days when it's rarely models in here. If perhaps the other posters would listen to the models who post in here [because half the time if it's a new model, they want to ask us more experienced ones and believe it or not we do know what we're talking about ] then maybe it wouldn't be that way.

But that's just how it is. I don't think it's gonna change. I used to not have a problem being fairly stand-offish when people would come in here and spout bullshit. I had no problem calling them on it. But... we all also know why that doesn't happen anymore.

This forum has been overrun and models have been all but silenced. It's sad.

Select Models wrote:

Nah... ain't fallin for that excuse.  Moderators here are IN YOUR FACE on this kind of action and they don't let that kind of stuff get out of hand here.  The brig is sparatically populated with the bashers you're referring to...

Not nearly enough Gary. MM would be a better place without a handful of the "nothing better to do than bash people" posters who frequent the threads. I am pretty cautious when and where I post. I often compose answers or responses in detail then never post them after realizing the crap storm I could be in for. And no, it's no limited to photographers. But they are the majority of the offenders. So In a way I'm a lurker too.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
Yours isn't. Some actually don't realise how talented they actually are

oh please, my ego is an absolute shambles

aside from that, what i think is probably the case overall is that shooters like to think they are smart, and feel the need to advertise that illusion. models, on the other hand, really need to be smart, smarter than photographers. they need to know both sides of the camera to a fair degree. they don't need to post. they read. and you can bet that quite a few of them track down what any of us have expressed here before proceeding with any kind of shoot communications and plans. that no-response-is-a-response may actually mean that they read what we've been pissing out of our keyboards and they don't want to go anywhere near us.

VikyL wrote:
I post infrequently because a lot of the threads just devolve into the same handful of photographers bashing models (whom they always define only as young women) in one way or another and there's very little point in trying to get a word in between their diatribes.

You said it all. It's really discouraging.
I could write pages and pages on the issue, but honestly it's just easier to let it go and move on.

Rhea the Strange wrote:
You said it all. It's really discouraging.
I could write pages and pages on the issue, but honestly it's just easier to let it go and move on.

BINGO... definitely the best thing to do... cause if you don't... and the bashers 'get your goat' on the first response... they'll almost always return with more 'back handed compliments' until they're really rattling our cage... ... ...

VikyL wrote:
I post infrequently because a lot of the threads just devolve into the same handful of photographers bashing models (whom they always define only as young women) in one way or another and there's very little point in trying to get a word in between their diatribes.

Obviously this.

I do post though. But I have to carefully word every post I make, which makes me an infrequent poster. It's like walking on eggshells. Don't need that shit in my life.

Gianna Virginia wrote:
Obviously this.

I do post though. But I have to carefully word every post I make, which makes me an infrequent poster. It's like walking on eggshells. Don't need that shit in my life.

P R E A C H.

Not to mention, anything we say in here is instantly dissected and/or invalidated by some photographer. There's no point to posting in here anymore.

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … st18375915  is also a great example of why many models have no interest in posting here anymore.

Nicolette wrote:

P R E A C H.

Not to mention, anything we say in here is instantly dissected and/or invalidated by some photographer.

Maybe somewhat dissected, but rarely if ever invalidated.  Regardless of height, shape, or origin, each model who's experienced a level of success here, can utilize that success as a valid point for being here...

Select Models wrote:

Maybe somewhat dissected, but rarely if ever invalidated.  Regardless of height, shape, or origin, each model who's experienced a level of success here, can utilize that success as a valid point for being here...

Except that we can't.
I have, on many occasions in this very forum, had many of my personal truths completely invalidated.
I've been told that I would never be successful, when at the time I was touring the country and being published.
I was told that I didn't know what I was talking about, when I was making my full-time living modeling and was giving out solid advice based off my own experience.
This doesn't happen just to me. I've seen it happen COUNTLESS times in this forum. If a model says it, any photographer who even remotely disagree has the "right" to completely rip her [and her look which has nothing to do with the conversation] to shreds and it's beyond irritating.

There are other models in this very thread who will agree with me and have said similar things already. The lack of models posting in this very forum also proves it.

This used to be for questions about traveling, showing off our tear sheets, networking, and asking for general advice outside of critique. Now it's all about photographers telling us exactly what to do and how to do it, then getting pissy when we tell them to back off.

There's a reason models just lurk these days.

Nicolette wrote:
Well, thank you.
It's just tiring to get perpetually shut down [as a model] in the model forum. I don't go into the photography forum and harp on you guys. I don't tell you how to do your job.

There used to be a real feeling of camaraderie in the model forum, but that's long gone. These are the days when it's rarely models in here. If perhaps the other posters would listen to the models who post in here [because half the time if it's a new model, they want to ask us more experienced ones and believe it or not we do know what we're talking about ] then maybe it wouldn't be that way.

But that's just how it is. I don't think it's gonna change. I used to not have a problem being fairly stand-offish when people would come in here and spout bullshit. I had no problem calling them on it. But... we all also know why that doesn't happen anymore.

This forum has been overrun and models have been all but silenced. It's sad.

You are correct!  It has to do with male dominance.  It's a "mans World!"   I know this to be true because I work with model websites, that the industry of Internet Modeling and to what I believe maybe even a greater extent, the traditional modeling industry as well.

I'm a male who loves and adores women.  In fact, I could be called a feminist, because I would like to see the World treat women as equal of importance as men.   John Lennon's song lyrics "Woman is the nigger of the world" ... is still true today.  I've been accused of "white knighting" when I'm only trying to interject a voice to other less popular opinions.  It is common to see minority opinion ridiculed by the majority.  The majority might be the loudest, but they are not always correct.

It's common for an open forum to have some problems with dominating members who intimidate or bully.  Although this website has done a fairly good job of enforcing rules of conduct on the forums, any amount of misconduct still tends to drive people away after awhile.  It's obvious that the forums have slowed down.  Can anything more be done about that?  It remains to be seen.

Select Models wrote:

Interesting commentary... but you wanna know the REAL BOTTOM LINE behide this message?  If you wouldn't have posted here, I would have never seen your port... great images by the way...

touché!

Nicolette wrote:

Except that we can't.
I have, on many occasions in this very forum, had many of my personal truths completely invalidated.
I've been told that I would never be successful, when at the time I was touring the country and being published.
I was told that I didn't know what I was talking about, when I was making my full-time living modeling and was giving out solid advice based off my own experience.
This doesn't happen just to me. I've seen it happen COUNTLESS times in this forum. If a model says it, any photographer who even remotely disagree has the "right" to completely rip her [and her look which has nothing to do with the conversation] to shreds and it's beyond irritating.

There are other models in this very thread who will agree with me and have said similar things already. The lack of models posting in this very forum also proves it.

This used to be for questions about traveling, showing off our tear sheets, networking, and asking for general advice outside of critique. Now it's all about photographers telling us exactly what to do and how to do it, then getting pissy when we tell them to back off.

There's a reason models just lurk these days.

Spot on.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

Spot on.

Agree.

Drew Smith Photography wrote:
Would it be such a bad thing then if MM restricted this Forum to posts by Models?

The models get their Forum back and we Photographers still have an abundance of other Forums in which to rant and pontificate.

I guess the biggest problem with that would be IB getting the MM Hamsters to run fast enough to enable the code to be written.

Shouldn't be necessary. Adherence to general forum etiquette and supporting of forum rules by moderators should do it. Rules against Personal attack, unsolicited criticism etc should be strictly enforced; be they made by photographers or models. They are not. Therein lies the problem.

It is particularly bad in this forum because photographers it is true are telling us how to do are job. We generally don't do that in the photographer's forum. That just calls for a bit of respect - but the problem is many photographers by their own admission have no respect for MM models. So they come in and criticise models in general, say we aren't worth paying, are unprofessional etc. I just think mods should prevent that kind of crit becoming abusive or personal. That is true throughout the forum but when we cannot discuss our own craft without being told how to do things by people who clearly have little knowledge of modelling it's particularly bad - and as people have said we can do without that shit. The problem is photographers think they are experts on modelling - whereas they tend to only see a fraction of what we do. So one says well actually we do this this and this....and get ridiculed or told our experience is not relevant, isn't real modelling, or that we are 'internet models' etc. Modelling existed well before photography and 90% of it doesn't involve photography. The riducle against and ignorance of for example promotional modelling, life modelling, fit and showroom modelling, niche modelling (vintage etc) etc is astounding yet this kind of work is what pays the bills of those of us who are models.

So what it needs is moderators in this forum who know these areas of modelling are valid and to slap the wrists of those who try to put it down. So maybe the forum should be moderated by models exclusively perhaps?

Nicolette wrote:

Except that we can't.
I have, on many occasions in this very forum, had many of my personal truths completely invalidated.
I've been told that I would never be successful, when at the time I was touring the country and being published.
I was told that I didn't know what I was talking about, when I was making my full-time living modeling and was giving out solid advice based off my own experience.
This doesn't happen just to me. I've seen it happen COUNTLESS times in this forum. If a model says it, any photographer who even remotely disagree has the "right" to completely rip her [and her look which has nothing to do with the conversation] to shreds and it's beyond irritating.

There are other models in this very thread who will agree with me and have said similar things already. The lack of models posting in this very forum also proves it.

This used to be for questions about traveling, showing off our tear sheets, networking, and asking for general advice outside of critique. Now it's all about photographers telling us exactly what to do and how to do it, then getting pissy when we tell them to back off.

There's a reason models just lurk these days.

It happens on all the forums these days. I think too that it is a relatively small group at the heart of it.

I find that sometimes its easier to just ignore their posts, if you don't feed them they will look elsewhere for entertainment.

I do find it a shame that so many just lurk because of it, I for one am interested in the models perspective. I may not always agree but it provides insight that helps me accommodate for a models perspective at shoots to make it more comfortable and relaxed. That comfort and level of understanding translates directly into better shots.

Select Models wrote:
BINGO... definitely the best thing to do... cause if you don't... and the bashers 'get your goat' on the first response... they'll almost always return with more 'back handed compliments' until they're really rattling our cage... ... ...

After reading all of the models responses in this forum I decided I'm going to be more active and I think all should follow suit. I don't allow myself be intimidated in person, why on earth should I be intimidated by some person in a forum. If someone doesn't like your opinion or tries to tear you down; I say just don't respond. Keep posting and just leave their post to go unanswered. The more models posting, the better chance we will have at having our voices heard. We come to this forum to hear from MODELS to exchange advice and give each other support. That's not to discredit some of the photographers here who have genuine advice or experience. Let's let the trolls be trolls and troll each other. Amirite?

Rhea the Strange wrote:

After reading all of the models responses in this forum I decided I'm going to be more active and I think all should follow suit. I don't allow myself be intimidated in person, why on earth should I be intimidated by some person in a forum. If someone doesn't like your opinion or tries to tear you down; I say just don't respond. Keep posting and just leave their post to go unanswered. The more models posting, the better chance we will have at having our voices heard. We come to this forum to hear from MODELS to exchange advice and give each other support. That's not to discredit some of the photographers here who have genuine advice or experience. Let's let the trolls be trolls and troll each other. Amirite?

BRAVO Rhea... we need a lot more strong willed models like you to speakup here... KUDOS!

Select Models wrote:
BRAVO Rhea... we need a lot more strong willed models like you to speakup here... KUDOS!

We're not weak-willed. We're fed up and we know it's not likely to change.

She's 144 posts into the forums. She likely hasn't seen how models are treated in this forum regularly yet. Eventually, if she sticks to the forums, she will see it.

Even to the most passive of people, shit like this gets old, and it gets old really fucking fast.

Nicolette wrote:

We're not weak-willed. We're fed up and we know it's not likely to change.

She's 144 posts into the forums. She likely hasn't seen how models are treated in this forum regularly yet. Eventually, if she sticks to the forums, she will see it.

Even to the most passive of people, shit like this gets old, and it gets old really fucking fast.

Please don't base my knowledge on my post number. I have seen the treatment of models here. I had another account as a retoucher, not that it should matter. I've been on MM since 2010, I've lurked a lot. I understand it's abhorring behavior, but I still stick by what I said.

Nicolette wrote:
We're not weak-willed. We're fed up and we know it's not likely to change.

She's 144 posts into the forums. She likely hasn't seen how models are treated in this forum regularly yet. Eventually, if she sticks to the forums, she will see it.

Even to the most passive of people, shit like this gets old, and it gets old really fucking fast.

I certainly couldn't be said to be weak willed either. I made a point of not backing down to the bullies and those who have regularly hurled abuse at mm models generally and myself and others personally for a long time. I took the view that some of those photographers genuinely didn't grasp the kind of work models do. So I explained til I was blue in the face. All I got back was sneering at work like life modelling, fitting and modelling for boutiques, and promotional modelling and told it was not proper modelling. If people like them are going to sneer at us for doing normal journeyman honest modelling they can fuck off frankly. I am not going talk to those who  look down their nose at what we do because we aren't dreaming of being in Vogue. Or being told that we aren't worthy; should shoot with them for free etc. I am simply not going to engage in conversation with such any longer. Let them go on struggling to get a response from models; failing to understand that we have other paid commitments etc. I would prefer not to waste ony more time talking to such.  There is being strong willed and there is wasting ones time. Those photographers, designers etc serious about finding reputable models will be able to do so anyway.

VikyL wrote:
I post infrequently because a lot of the threads just devolve into the same handful of photographers bashing models (whom they always define only as young women) in one way or another and there's very little point in trying to get a word in between their diatribes.

Thank you!  I have found no use for the forums except for killing time, or selling stuff on mm market.. Periodically I'll glance here bc I used to visit more.. But it's usually just drama.. People are pretty rude over the Internet.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

I certainly couldn't be said to be weak willed either. I made a point of not backing down to the bullies and those who have regularly hurled abuse at mm models generally and myself and others personally for a long time. I took the view that some of those photographers genuinely didn't grasp the kind of work models do. So I explained til I was blue in the face. All I got back was sneering at work like life modelling, fitting and modelling for boutiques, and promotional modelling and told it was not proper modelling. If people like them are going to sneer at us for doing normal journeyman honest modelling they can fuck off frankly. I am not going talk to those who  look down their nose at what we do because we aren't dreaming of being in Vogue. Or being told that we aren't worthy; should shoot with them for free etc. I am simply not going to engage in conversation with such any longer. Let them go on struggling to get a response from models; failing to understand that we have other paid commitments etc. I would prefer not to waste ony more time talking to such.  There is being strong willed and there is wasting ones time. Those photographers, designers etc serious about finding reputable models will be able to do so anyway.

THANK YOU. Bless you. you get it.

liindsay ann wrote:

Thank you!  I have found no use for the forums except for killing time, or selling stuff on mm market.. Periodically I'll glance here bc I used to visit more.. But it's usually just drama.. People are pretty rude over the Internet.

WOW... well all I can say is... you have LOADS of potential.  If you were in Southern California... you'd be doin paid shoots and castings every week... and thanks for posting...

Select Models wrote:

OK... I'm gonna call your bluff on this one girlfren... cause from the huge amount threads I've participated in, I'm not seeing all this 'expressed ugliness, toxic vibes and enragingly incorrect advice'.  Can you post a link to just one of those samples for me?...

I agree and disagree, it really depends on the subject .  Constructive criticism is awesome and very helpful don't get me wrong but from what i have experienced as a new model is some very rude models/photographers giving more of a i'm better than you attitude along with rude comments basically stating the obvious of me being an ammature model with a carefully worded insult as to follow site rules, and nothing close to constructive criticism or being helpful with advice i had asked for. That being said i also have experienced some very helpful and professional individuals on some forums.   It goes both ways , there will always be negatives and positives to everything , i just try to focus on what positive things come from the forums i do decide to reply to.  I can easily understand why some may get discouraged or affraid of what might be said to them , but in my opinion this really isn't the type of industry to take rejection to heart....

So there's my Ammature 2 cents lol .ox

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

I certainly couldn't be said to be weak willed either.

Or quiet.

Sorry, that totally broke me up.

Herman Surkis wrote:
Or quiet.

Sorry, that totally broke me up.

Ha ha.

You know me Herman.

This is the latest example of why models won't post:

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=902510

We are made to feel our experience of basic journeyman modelling of little or no worth and we get abuse. Fashion and big shot adevertising photographers telling us we can't do it. So I guess most of us just get on and do it and don't bother trying to argue with them. Sad thing is then that new models don't get to know about the nature of journeyman modelling that is available to us even though that Elle cover isn't.

Now a lot of girls won't tell of their experiences because they are intimidated by such arrogance and photographers shooting at edtiorial/high adevertisg level. They fear that if they have a chance of that they better not take on the bullies for fear of being ostricised, or they simply feel belittled by sharing how they did a great pin up shoot for a reto clothing company even though they are only 5ft 3" and become the face of the small brand; or do some promo modelling or model for an Art school.

So generally they just get on and do it rather than come here to be insulted and put down by these bombastic creeps telling them they are worthless unless they get nude if they aren't 6ft.

Of course I am semi retired now so don't have to put up with that shit. I never had it in the 'real' world of modelling. Yes I had snotty photographers look down their nose at me; but I also could sit smug watching my employer make the guy dance to their tune. Only happened twice but I know the type. Big shots. Making themselves feel bigger by putting journeyman models - and even other photographers - down. Problem is those who aspire to do what they do hero worship and are in awe of them. Not me It's just modelling and photography get it in proportion.

I was through posting here at all but I get asked by other models and photographers to speak out against this so hence have entered these threads.

I would suggest in the meantime that if photographers wnat to talk to models that they may want to use use the search facility. Of course this kind of arrogance I am speaking of may have driven a lot off the site altogether as we also get it in pm aswell as forum; so you may not get an answer. But many though they don't take part in the toxic debates still maintain their ports.

Gianna Virginia wrote:
Oh yeah, and here's an example of the shit that breaks loose if you mention anything that has to do with model safety.

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=902392

Also, when your an OP your always open to some fucktard trying to bring you down. Case in point, in the following thread some retoucher claims to not like me. WTF? I honestly didn't ever know or ever see this person before on the forums. It was like conversing with an 8yr old.

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=902288

+1.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
[...] they simply feel belittled by sharing how they did a great pin up shoot for a reto clothing company even though they are only 5ft 3" and become the face of the small brand; or do some promo modelling or model for an Art school.

So generally they just get on and do it rather than come here to be insulted and put down by these bombastic creeps telling them they are worthless unless they get nude if they aren't 6ft.

^ This is pretty much it for me. I do realize I'm an elf without any extra input from webxperts, that doesn't mean I can't enjoy giving it a go.

VikyL wrote:
I post infrequently because a lot of the threads just devolve into the same handful of photographers bashing models (whom they always define only as young women) in one way or another and there's very little point in trying to get a word in between their diatribes.

I'm not saying photographers should never post in model forum, or vice versa, and sometimes photographers post here looking for model's perspective on an issue which I think works well if the other photographers shut the fuck up and let models post.

Is is possible to put a quota on posting like that? Ten posts per year in a 'non you' forum?