This thread was locked on 2014-03-24 15:51:35
Photographer
nolngeractive
Posts: 178
Reno, Nevada, US
Since the the quality of model has gone way down hill on here lately in an effort to save time and avoid aggravation I've been looking for model review sites with no luck. I found one on tumblr which isnt very good ( http://modelsthatsuck.tumblr.com) NSFW. Has anyone found anything useful? I did a quick search in the forums but no luck.
Model
MelissaAnn
Posts: 3971
Seattle, Washington, US
It wouldn't be useful, because everyone's experiences and perceptions are different. Just because a model doesn't show up, or is a perceived "bitch" during a shoot with a certain photographer, doesn't mean she's that way at every shoot, or that other photographers will have a problem with the same sort of behavior. There are models that are almost universally loved by everyone, but hated by certain photographers, and vice versa. Sometimes it's the model, but sometimes it's the photographers perception of the model, lack of planning for the shoot, poor communication etc. I would never trust any websites, links, or lists devoted to blacklisting models or photographers, because there are two sides to every story.
You are responsible for your own experience here on MM. There's a reason why many people have been on here for years and have mostly positive experiences, and why others have nothing but horror stories and bad experiences. A lot of it is you, your perceptions, the way you choose models, your style of communication, and the way you choose to react to the behavior of others.
Photographer
Fotografica Gregor
Posts: 4126
Alexandria, Virginia, US
I am quite sure that the photographer review sites are more entertaining  Even without specific knowledge, you have to believe that most everything that models wish they could get on MM is out there *somewhere*
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 13053
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Seriously again?
Check refrences or use agencies, it's fairly simple...
Photographer
nolngeractive
Posts: 178
Reno, Nevada, US
MelissaAnn wrote:
It wouldn't be useful, because everyone's experiences and perceptions are different. Just because a model doesn't show up, or is a perceived "bitch" during a shoot with a certain photographer, doesn't mean she's that way at every shoot, or that other photographers will have a problem with the same sort of behavior. There are models that are almost universally loved by everyone, but hated by certain photographers, and vice versa. Sometimes it's the model, but sometimes it's the photographers perception of the model, lack of planning for the shoot, poor communication etc. I would never trust any websites, links, or lists devoted to blacklisting models or photographers, because there are two sides to every story.
You are responsible for your experience here on MM. There's a reason why many people have been on here for years and have mostly positive experiences, and why others have nothing but horror stories and bad experiences. A lot of it is you, your perceptions, the way you choose models, your style of communication, and the way you choose to react to the behavior of others. What you say is true but that's the case with all reviews sites ... from Amazon to Yelp on down. You have to take them with a grain of salt but i think there would be some value in weeding out the truly bad eggs.
Model
Sabryna S
Posts: 311
Doylestown, Pennsylvania, US
Eh, I think that's why you should just stick to references. That tumblr is probably just full of submissions of butthurt people (or maybe the models legitimately do suck, but that's besides the point). I don't think it's necessary to make sites like that, yet again I like to avoid drama.
If I was realllly unsure about a photographer, that's where I start researching, looking into models' profiles, etc.
Plus, models who may dislike/be jealous of/whatever other models could easily submit to that site even if they don't have a valid reason.
Tumblr is especially guilty of bitter people coming together and bashing one another, especially anonymously, lol.
Artist/Painter
MainePaintah
Posts: 1892
Saco, Maine, US
ClimaxArt wrote:
What you say is true but that's the case with all reviews sites ... from Amazon to Yelp on down. You have to take them with a grain of salt but i think there would be some value in weeding out the truly bad eggs. "The truly bad eggs"?
Who is going to be this almighty judge/jury/executioner to weed out the truly bad eggs? YOU?
I don't know you from Adam. Why would I take your advice. For that matter, why would I take anybody's advice I do not know?
This is such a slippery slope, that it will never, ever work.
Say someone gave a model a really bad review. How do I know that photographer didn't just have a fight with his wife and decided to take it out on someone else?
Doing one's own homework and trusting one's own instinct and judgement is the only thing that will work. Here or CL or wherever.
Photographer
American Glamour
Posts: 38813
Detroit, Michigan, US
MelissaAnn wrote:
There are models that are almost universally loved by everyone, but hated by certain photographers, and vice versa. I see more than one of those "universally loved" models on that site. You have hit the nail so on the head.
Photographer
nolngeractive
Posts: 178
Reno, Nevada, US
MainePaintah wrote:
"The truly bad eggs"?
Who is going to be this almighty judge/jury/executioner to weed out the truly bad eggs? YOU?
I don't know you from Adam. Why would I take your advice. For that matter, why would I take anybody's advice I do not know?
This is such a slippery slope, that it will never, ever work.
Say someone gave a model a really bad review. How do I know that photographer didn't just have a fight with his wife and decided to take it out on someone else?
Doing one's own homework and trusting one's own instinct and judgement is the only thing that will work. Here or CL or wherever. i dont know ... seems to me that reviews are a staple of the internet. Amazon, Walmart, yelp, Apple, Ebay, the list goes on and on.
Don't you think people are intelligent enough to separate signal from noise? Isn't the quality of service at a cafe just as subjective as a how good a model or photographer is? I just dont see why modeling is such a special case.
Photographer
Richard Tallent
Posts: 7136
Beaumont, Texas, US
Review sites and references have the same problem: you have to consider the source.
*Anonymous* review sites, though, are far worse, since they will attract people who don't want to be responsible for libelous accusations.
Personally, I find public outing distasteful, but I'm a big fan of checking references.
I believe there *are* ways to do reviews that mitigate the he-said-she-said issue, but none exist currently. Yelp, eBay, and Amazon are good examples of something that isn't terrible but could be improved on to handle issues specific to llama photography.
Photographer
Cherrystone
Posts: 37171
Columbus, Ohio, US
ClimaxArt wrote:
Since the the quality of model has gone way down hill on here lately.........snip Could you define what logic gave you that observation? And how are you defining quality?
Photographer
nolngeractive
Posts: 178
Reno, Nevada, US
Small Fruit Pits wrote:
Could you define what logic gave you that observation? And how are you defining quality? not relevant ...
Photographer
Sophistocles
Posts: 21320
Seattle, Washington, US
ClimaxArt wrote:
not relevant ... Actually, it forms the basis of your argument. The question is valid. If you deflect it, that's telling.
Model
Dekilah
Posts: 5236
Dearborn, Michigan, US
Honestly, I think it would be better to showcase models that people really enjoy working with. Same idea as that blog, but with a positive spin instead, particularly for traveling models or models in larger areas or ones for specific genres.
People seem to put a lot more stock in positive reviews than negative ones. So promote the models you like and do not promote those you do not like.
Photographer
Cherrystone
Posts: 37171
Columbus, Ohio, US
ClimaxArt wrote:
not relevant ... Ummm, really?
It's kinda the core reason in your search for "model reviews".
So yes relevant...only my opinion....but I'm right.
Photographer
Joseph William
Posts: 2039
Chicago, Illinois, US
ClimaxArt wrote:
(http://modelsthat-blah-blah-blah.tumblr.com. That site is some he man woman hater randomly stealing picks and writing rude stuff about the model, so he can feel better about himself. Totally insulting to models and photographers
Photographer
Joseph William
Posts: 2039
Chicago, Illinois, US
Small Fruit Pits wrote:
Not cherry stone anymore? Did no one what it meant, or did they think it was dirty?
Photographer
Glenn Hall - Fine Art
Posts: 452
Townsville, Queensland, Australia
LMFAO...thanks for the link and the laughs....mwahahaha
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45198
San Juan Bautista, California, US
ClimaxArt wrote:
Since the the quality of model has gone way down hill on here lately in an effort to save time and avoid aggravation I've been looking for model review sites with no luck. I found one on tumblr which isnt very good (http://modelsthatsuck.tumblr.com) NSFW.
Has anyone found anything useful? I did a quick search in the forums but no luck. All the reviews on every model review site is very poor. Seems there is no method top check accuracy or prevent lying.
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45198
San Juan Bautista, California, US
MelissaAnn wrote:
You are responsible for your own experience here on MM. There's a reason why many people have been on here for years and have mostly positive experiences, and why others have nothing but horror stories and bad experiences. A lot of it is you, your perceptions, the way you choose models, your style of communication, and the way you choose to react to the behavior of others. This  I will teach any of you the methods I use to greatly reduce the chances models flaking or any other issues you might have.
Photographer
Christopher Carter
Posts: 7777
Indianapolis, Indiana, US
600,000+ profiles on this site, and you only have two pages of complaints? You need to put more effort into this if you want it to succeed. Like, it's like you're not even trying to make that site worthwhile. Also, one of my favorite models is on it  Good job, you have good taste
Photographer
Mickle Design Werks
Posts: 5967
Washington, District of Columbia, US
I hate review sites.
It would be different if the reviewer could be held accountable for what they say but the best thing we can hope for is that the folk who read their review read it with some critical thinking engaged.
Photographer
Shot By Adam
Posts: 8095
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
ClimaxArt wrote:
not relevant ... Sorry, but it is VERY relevant. You're in New York and you're going to tell us that the "quality of models" is so bad there you need to go find a review site? Either you:
1) Aren't doing your homework.
2) Have no experience in properly weeding out quality models.
3) Are doing something to create an aura of bad luck.
4) Aren't using agency models
5) All of the above?
Also, out of curiosity, why are you deleting your account on 12/14, as you are stating in your profile? Is it because there are no quality models in the largest metropolitan city in the United States?
Photographer
nolngeractive
Posts: 178
Reno, Nevada, US
Mnemosyne Photography wrote:
600,000+ profiles on this site, and you only have two pages of complaints? You need to put more effort into this if you want it to succeed. Like, it's like you're not even trying to make that site worthwhile.
Also, one of my favorite models is on it Good job, you have good taste To be clear the site referenced in my OP is not mine. You're right it isnt very useful but it was the only "review" site I was able to find. I started the thread to find out if anyone knew of any useful resources not to debate the merits of review site in general.
Photographer
Dynamic Mobile Photo
Posts: 171
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
Dekilah wrote:
Honestly, I think it would be better to showcase models that people really enjoy working with. Same idea as that blog, but with a positive spin instead, particularly for traveling models or models in larger areas or ones for specific genres.
People seem to put a lot more stock in positive reviews than negative ones. So promote the models you like and do not promote those you do not like. I totally agree with you here
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 33355
Dearborn, Michigan, US
Dekilah wrote:
Honestly, I think it would be better to showcase models that people really enjoy working with. Same idea as that blog, but with a positive spin instead, particularly for traveling models or models in larger areas or ones for specific genres.
People seem to put a lot more stock in positive reviews than negative ones. So promote the models you like and do not promote those you do not like. +1
There are many good models!
Model
Nicolette
Posts: 12718
Houston, Texas, US
This is a pretty good way to promote your tumblr. Clever.
How long ago did you make it?
Photographer
nolngeractive
Posts: 178
Reno, Nevada, US
Shot By Adam wrote:
Sorry, but it is VERY relevant. You're in New York and you're going to tell us that the "quality of models" is so bad there you need to go find a review site? Either you:
1) Aren't doing your homework.
2) Have no experience in properly weeding out quality models.
3) Are doing something to create an aura of bad luck.
4) Aren't using agency models
5) All of the above?
Also, out of curiosity, why are you deleting your account on 12/14, as you are stating in your profile? Is it because there are no quality models in the largest metropolitan city in the United States? - looking for reviews on models is completely consistent with doing my homework and "properly weeding out" models.
- i was wondering why it seems to rain wherever I go??
- It's a bit of stretch to interpret my post to mean I dont think there are any quality models in NY - do you think model mayhem represents the entire universe of models?
With regard to deleting my profile - the effort lately isn't justifying the payoff ...
i use this site only to find models to work with and in the last few years as the folks who run MM have traded standards for traffic i seem to bump into more problems than in the past ... last minute cancellations ... photoshopping that completely distorts reality.
Photographer
nolngeractive
Posts: 178
Reno, Nevada, US
Mickle Design Werks wrote:
I hate review sites.
It would be different if the reviewer could be held accountable for what they say but the best thing we can hope for is that the folk who read their review read it with some critical thinking engaged. I dont understand the negative reaction to the idea of reviews for models and photographers. Right here on MM there's hundreds of reviews for cameras, lenses, light-stands, gels, lipstick - i even saw one for panty liners a while back. Why is it ok to endlessly review the newest camera but not the two services actually bought and sold here, modeling and photography?
And, you're right reviews have to be taken in context. If you read 10 in which the majority of comments are consistent - either positive or negative - dont you take that information into consideration when making a decision.
So what if one person out of 10 or even 5 says a model was a flake or the photographer didnt provide images from a tf shoot? In that case, arent most people going to think the reviewer has the problem not the service provider?
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 13564
Washington, Utah, US
I don't think the value of a review site is in determining how good a model is. There are better ways to determine that such as looking at her portfolio and judging for myself, rather than relying on a third part opinion.
I think where such sites could have some value is in more objective information such as reliability. Knowing one model has canceled in 18/30 booked shoots vs. 1/30 is a fairly objective piece of information that could have some real value as well as hold people more accountable for their actions.
The problem with that however, is to mean anything, requires models to have done enough shoots. Most of the models who cancel on me are fairly new, and simply don't have enough experience for any feedback to be meaningful.
Model
Axioma
Posts: 6822
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium
that title... will dissapoint quite a few tumblerers 
Photographer
Mark Harris Photography
Posts: 526
Metuchen, New Jersey, US
ClimaxArt wrote:
I dont understand the negative reaction to the idea of reviews for models and photographers. Right here on MM there's hundreds of reviews for cameras, lenses, light-stands, gels, lipstick - i even saw one for panty liners a while back. Why is it ok to endlessly review the newest camera but not the two services actually bought and sold here, modeling and photography? There are too many things that can influence a rating. Sometimes personalities don't gel, sometimes the model or photographer isn't feeling well, and sometimes one of the other really isn't very good. I find that references are useful but sometimes it is just a matter of booking and see what happens.
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 26342
Portland, Oregon, US
ClimaxArt wrote:
Since the the quality of model has gone way down hill on here lately in an effort to save time and avoid aggravation I've been looking for model review sites with no luck. I found one on tumblr which isnt very good (http://modelsthatsuck.tumblr.com) NSFW.
Has anyone found anything useful? I did a quick search in the forums but no luck. Often tried.
Never successful.
Some comments:
... "quality of model has gone way down hill on here lately" is an opinion, not a fact. Many would disagree.
... Just because you didn't like a model, that doesn't guarantee that I wouldn't like her.
... Such a site would be prone for abuse.
... You, a stranger, tell me that Model Mary sucks. I have no reason to believe or disbelieve you.
... These sites have no appeal process, nor do they have a mechanism to critique the folks who post there.
... Why can't people look at a model's portfolio & get a sense of what the model can't do? Further, I encourage everyone to check references. Therefore, a model rating site becomes unnecessary.
... Such a site requires maintenance. Who pays for it?
... Why are such model reviews posted anonymously?
... and so on.
I don't understand why people go to great lengths & effort to avoid checking references.
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12117
Tampa, Florida, US
ClimaxArt wrote:
What you say is true but that's the case with all reviews sites ... from Amazon to Yelp on down. You have to take them with a grain of salt but i think there would be some value in weeding out the truly bad eggs. Truly bad eggs? These aren't Sexual Offender Registries, they're listings from whiny photographers who need somewhere to vent.
And as for the quality of modeling going down lately, which you say as if it's an indisputable fact, maybe it's just your selection process that is lacking. Because I haven't seen any degradation in the quality.
Photographer
Shot By Adam
Posts: 8095
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
ClimaxArt wrote:
I dont understand the negative reaction to the idea of reviews for models and photographers. Right here on MM there's hundreds of reviews for cameras, lenses, light-stands, gels, lipstick - i even saw one for panty liners a while back. Why is it ok to endlessly review the newest camera but not the two services actually bought and sold here, modeling and photography? Apples and oranges. A good review of a camera is based on quantifiable results showing different photos under different conditions, amount of time to focus, standards used for determining build quality, etc.
On eBay, when I leave a review of a seller, it's based on quantifiable facts...did the item ship as promised? Is the item as described? Etc. Quantifiable information.
A review of a model is based on subjective opinion. Whether she was easy to work with is not quantifiable, it's pure opinion. And when you go and give a review for a model, saying she was "difficult to work with" you might be leaving out the fact that you were hitting on her for an hour making her uncomfortable in the shoot. It's funny how negative reviews of models frequently leave out major facts like that when the other side of the story comes out.
Photographer
Shot By Adam
Posts: 8095
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Looknsee Photography wrote:
I don't understand why people go to great lengths & effort to avoid checking references. Because it's a lot easier to go into a forum and rant about how there are no more good models in the world, how they are all flakes, and how they aren't reliable than it is to actually get educated on how to do 10 minutes of research or hire a model from a reliable agency who's done all that work for you.
Photographer
American Glamour
Posts: 38813
Detroit, Michigan, US
Michael Pandolfo wrote:
Truly bad eggs? These aren't Sexual Offender Registries, they're listings from whiny photographers who need somewhere to vent. LOL but I agree
Photographer
Christopher Carter
Posts: 7777
Indianapolis, Indiana, US
ClimaxArt wrote:
To be clear the site referenced in my OP is not mine. You're right it isnt very useful but it was the only "review" site I was able to find. I started the thread to find out if anyone knew of any useful resources not to debate the merits of review site in general. You're not looking hard enough. I get messages on fb from friends who aren't even models or photographers showing me a new one regularly.
Photographer
Skydancer Photos
Posts: 22196
Santa Cruz, California, US
ClimaxArt wrote:
modelsthatsuck.tumblr.com NSFW. Someone that hateful, who hides in anonymity while trashing others... seems to me this is a sad person.
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Good job, you have good taste 
I will teach any of you the methods I use to greatly reduce the chances models flaking or any other issues you might have.
