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Problems with TFP and wondering why.
Generally, I thought "trade for print" meant receiving digital copies which are sized for printing, or actual physical prints. Due to issues I've had in the past, when I am now approached for TFP I make this specification very clear. I'm really only interested in updating my physical book and people seem to have an issue providing prints (for reasons of money or whatnot) and refuse to provide digital copies of the proper size so I can print it myself. Most times I have to decline offers because of this. It bothers me because I would TFP more if this wasn't such a prevalent issue. What is the reason behind this? I thought this was the entire point of TFP? Is there something I'm missing? Is there something different I should be asking for? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Edit** To those who have responded saying my requests are reasonable; thank you so much! I've been feeling like a nut with all these failed attempts. I wish I could have worked with you all instead, you all seem awesome! I really thought I was doing something wrong here. I understand with the digital age things have changed, which is why I even offer to be sent digital copies so I can print myself. Being honest, I'm very old school. I love having the images in hand and placing them in my book. I also feel more professional at castings. I really appreciate the volume of response this is getting. Perhaps others will see and understand that it's not such an odd request. In the past I didn't make it clear, I thought TFP was self explanatory. It wasn't until the times I kept getting dismissed about the issue that I started making my intentions clear; still there are many who refuse to work with me under these terms after approaching me. I've seen some valid points where it comes to selling prints to make money; however I feel if it's a shoot to benefit our portfolios mutually it shouldn't be seen as that I am going to be pawning off shots. Put it in the model release if necessary! However; I could understand a paid shoot (paying me) or an Un/paid Test, where you want to sell prints and not sending hi-res. That's completely understandable not to send anything. Apr 23 14 01:50 pm Link Seems like a reasonable request to me. Generally speaking, when I deliver finished images, they're not full resolution because very few people want to print. However, if it were communicated to me that was your intention, I would be absolutely sure you received full sized shots, ready for print. Have you asked after the fact to get the higher res, larger sized images from these people who you've worked with? Sometimes, we just don't assume people need or even want a 36MP image. Apr 23 14 01:56 pm Link Good Egg Productions wrote: Glad you think so too! Apr 23 14 02:00 pm Link Seems totally reasonable to me. I always provide full res images as well as ones sized to 800px on the longest side. I have been asked on many occasions what the 'big one' is for! Apr 23 14 02:04 pm Link ARA Photo wrote: I'm glad you think so. Apr 23 14 02:07 pm Link I always send over web sized images since that is all most people want. I am more then happy to sending over full sized images for printing if it is requested. I think your request is reasonable. Apr 23 14 02:15 pm Link That is very stranger since models usually need a book when they go to castings. If these are photographers that work out there in the industry they shouldn't be so declined not to provide you with high-res photos for your book). Hobbyist photographers don't always know how things work outside of the internet so you can try and teach them (which is a waste of time) or you can just move on to the next person. Good Luck Apr 23 14 02:15 pm Link Not unreasonable but some like to sell the prints to the models and most times these days only agencies are printing Apr 23 14 02:17 pm Link TF/TFP is great and the point is to benefit both but is it because of what "retouching" and changes that can be done to a HIRES photo. I do give both qualities understand why someone might be hesitant. Apr 23 14 02:18 pm Link I give high resolution images to the models I work with. I print my images and most of the models I work with are agency models that need the images printed for their book. Apr 23 14 02:20 pm Link I generally sent web sized prints via facebook as the edits are done and then dropbox both the full res and web optimised images when they are all finished. While most never use the full size image, it's no reason not to send it. Apr 23 14 02:25 pm Link "Trade for Print" is an old term from the days before digital images. It refers to exactly what it says, your time in exchange for printed images because that's what film gave you, prints. today when the term is used it generally means digital images because well, not many models have a need for them in this day and age. some do, as yourself, so requesting them shouldn't be an issue. Just make sure the photographer is aware of what you need and how you'll use it. those of us that make a living selling limited edition prints really need to protect our hi-rez image files and make sure only web size are posted online. one of my models simply likes to view the details up close with no need to print so I make for her a middle-sized version. yeah, it takes a bit more time to create extra various sizes but it seems a small enough request for a great model.  Apr 23 14 02:28 pm Link Doesn't seem unreasonable to me. The models I usually work with only want web sized pics and some want hi-res pics but sometimes they may want a few prints. I don't mind giving hi-res pics and I can also print pics up to 11"x17'' if the model needs it for her book. Apr 23 14 02:31 pm Link Totally reasonable. However, I think given the frequency where a model is only using web-sized images seems far more common, especially on here or on Facebook, it would make sense to only send print-resolution images upon request of specific images. Additionally, I suspect some photographers likely feel they have been burned in the past (or rumors of that happening), and feel concerned about giving out high-resolution. Other times it may be high opinions of themselves/their work, simple control issues, there are often many reasons for why photogs act as they do. From a practical standpoint, given the large file sizes of print-resolution images, I can see why it would make sense to only provide the specific ones that are asked for at that size. Apr 23 14 02:31 pm Link I generally don't see what the issue would be and I happily supply models with large files from shoots. The two biggest reasons that I can think of why photographers may be hesitant - unauthorized distribution and retouching - have already been mentioned. I do have two possible suggestions/solutions. Have you specifically mentioned to the photographers that you keep a physical book and would like images for that? There may be some sort of miscommunication. Also, if they are unwilling to supply the larger files, have you asked if the photographers were willing to supply actual physical prints instead? EDIT - One other possible reason that photographers may be hesitant to give out higher-res files is that they're just bigger and require more time to upload, send, etc. It's not a great reason, but depending on how they distribute the final product it may factor in. Apr 23 14 02:35 pm Link Back when I first started shooting (on a TFP basis), I always sent web sized and full res files to the models. After a while, I realized how few models will ever be printing anything, and started letting models know they would receive images at web size, and could let me know if there were specific images they wanted to print, and I would provide those specific files retouched and print ready at full resolution. These days, I don't shoot TFP any longer, and with every client who hires me to shoot, I contract/quote for providing a set number of retouched images, based upon their needs defined in our pre-booking discussions. By default, I price around providing those as full resolution, print-ready files, post-processed and retouched as appropriate for the style/use. But -- in a few cases where the client's need is ONLY for images for onscreen/online use, then I can offer a lower rate based around providing smaller sized files, given that it takes much less time to do the retouching of the smaller files. Then I also let the client know that the full res images will exist - I always shoot RAW - and that if they ever decide they would like to utilize any of the images in print, they can contact me to purchase those full res files. This is always all defined within the quote for the shoot, prior to payment and confirmation. Apr 23 14 02:46 pm Link Amelia Fae wrote: In the future, you may want to make that crystal clear or phrase it exactly like that. Maybe put it in your profile? Amelia Fae wrote: Probably because with the digital revolution, so few models need or want physical copies. I've been doing TF* shoots for a better part of 10 years & I can count on one hand the number of models who have requested hard-copy prints of the edited pictures. Apr 23 14 02:53 pm Link In my experience most models shooting for trade want digital images sized to put online. There's nothing wrong with you wanting prints or images sized to print, but I disagree that's the whole point of TF, for most it's web ready digital. Some photographers are willing to give out higher resolution images, or physical prints in trade, some are not. Certainly more are willing to for pay. Make sure to address that up front so you waste less time if your needs and what the photographer is willing to provide are not compatible. Apr 23 14 03:02 pm Link Any photographer who refuses to give you hi-res copied for your book after a trade shoot is a horses's ass. That's just my $0.01 because apparently giving $0.02 is regarded as "pissing and shitting all over the forum" by some. Apr 23 14 03:08 pm Link Very reasonable. I provide models and other collaborators both full resolution images and also imaged sized for the web when shooting TFP. I often give physical prints too. Apr 23 14 03:12 pm Link Amelia Fae wrote: Sorry you're dealing with this-- I'm the same as Good Egg above. My only request, is that you print through a decent lab, as many of the lower end ones (CVS, Walmart, etc) really do a terrible job and crop images where it's unacceptable. I always provide web sized images first, then allow the model to choose 2-3 that they'd like bigger. That way I they have images they can use for web right away, and I can spend the time i need too to edit the larger versions. Apr 23 14 03:32 pm Link Another Italian Guy wrote: LMAO Apr 23 14 03:34 pm Link I have encountered this issue myself - unfortunately, there isn't much you can do about it, other than make it very clear you need either prints or print sized files before entering into a TFP shoot discussion with someone. I've come across a fair few photographers who were unwilling to part with high res files because they were worried about models editing the images, submitting to magazines or selling prints without their permission; many of these photographers were not amateurs, but since so much modelling (even with agencies) is handled in an online capacity now, fewer and fewer people are using physical books. I was at a casting in London recently and there were only two other girls there with a physical book, though there were about thirty of us. Everyone else had tablets. I have found that in a few cases, once I explained why I needed the high res files, they were far more open to the idea Apr 23 14 03:34 pm Link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_for_print The original concept of "testing" in the traditional sense has been grotesquely distorted by this whole online modeling thing. Now it seems to be photographers thinking, "I just paid $5000 for this camera" and regardless of the skill level of the photographer, "models should feel grateful to have the chance to be in front of my lens for TFP". The answer is simple, that any "TFP" arrangement should benefit both parties. Providing you with some prints and/or full size retouched images you can print out, are perfectly reasonable requests on your part for a "TFP" arrangement. Apr 23 14 03:37 pm Link If some particular model needs the high resolution images, I just upload them to flickr by creating her set/folder over there. I don't do that on the regular basis, just when there is the specific request. Not the best solution in the world, but works for me, and it's totally free. The "new" interface could be potentially confusing for some. So, to get to the original file, initially click "..." at the right panel, then "Download All Sizes", and, after selecting the option "Original", finally click "Download". As an example, from this preview image you can download the "Original (4912px x7360px)" picture by following the above procedure. I'm not concerned to give away the original resolution files. They are the post-processed JPGs with a not obtrusive logo embedded (which I could remove per specific request in exchange for a credit, though), and not RAW files, after all. Apr 23 14 03:40 pm Link I provide models with high and low res non watermarked images on digital and 10 to 15 8.5x11 prints on archival paper. I have often framed and signed images if they are exceptional Apr 23 14 03:49 pm Link If they don't want to lose control of the hi-res file then they should provide the physical prints. Apr 23 14 03:56 pm Link Dan OMell wrote: Thanks!! Apr 23 14 03:59 pm Link Hi_Spade Photography wrote: you're very welcome Apr 23 14 04:01 pm Link I always provide full res non watermarked images on request. It's just what you should do, in fact I shoot a little loose on test so I can crop a 9x12 for the model and a 11x14 for myself. Sometimes that won't always work but it's just a good habit to leave room anyhow for client copy etc. P.S. I don't provide actual prints, that can differ in size, paper, sleeveless and what not. Apr 23 14 04:08 pm Link They won't supply high res files in case you sell them and then the National Gallery, or whatever your equivalent is, won't be interested. Got to keep the high art under lock and key in case they steals it from us. Apr 23 14 04:14 pm Link I always provide a flash drive with all high res. images to the model. If I put anything on the web its watermarked low res. files. Apr 23 14 04:38 pm Link Another Italian Guy wrote: In somewhat gentler language I echo these feelings Apr 23 14 05:01 pm Link Another Italian Guy wrote: Haha, awesome! Apr 23 14 05:11 pm Link Within 2 or 3 days of a shoot I send unretouched, low-res (800 px) proofs of the selected 20 images from our session via email. I follow up 2 weeks later with a cd of the images retouched at 4,000 px. Also on the cd are low-res versions of the same images for digital portfolios. Apr 23 14 05:17 pm Link Another Italian Guy wrote: I agree. I don't offer the high-res files, but if I'm just shooting for my book, I won't refuse either. Tim Griffiths wrote: I know you're being facetious, but I do exactly that. I'm happy to give out high-res files if I shot for my book, but not for personal projects. But if I get a photo that works its way into the project, I do give the model a print of that image, marked 'artist's proof.' Apr 23 14 05:38 pm Link Tim Griffiths wrote: Hobbitses steals it from us precious, big files make hobbitses fat. Sneaking thieves. Apr 23 14 07:28 pm Link Totally reasonable. I deliver the first of the web size images within 48 hrs of the shoot and the balance during the next week to two weeks. I let it be known that if anybody involved in the shoot wants high res images they will have them sent over straight away. Apr 24 14 12:30 am Link I'm sure most of us work on high def large images and only downsize to web compatible at the end, so providing print-quality images shouldn't be too hard. I usually provide websized only but will provide all or any as print-sized on request. If a model says upfront that she really wants to do prints - I will upload two galleries for her - one full-size and one web-size. I think we're lacking a term for Trade-For-Downloadable Web Sized images. I've seen someone suggest TFD but don't know it that will catch on. TFP and TFCD are really not what we do anymore (for the mostpart). Also, since I use Zenfolio for my Client downloads, I also have Mpix set up as a service. Models can order their own prints direct from Mpix (at base prices - I don't add markup for models) and I know their quality is better than I can produce at home. Plus Mpix will print nudes which many other services or stores won't. Apr 24 14 12:39 am Link Amelia Fae wrote: I deliver web sized images, but if a model or agency asks for high res then I'll gladly provide it, for promotional use. Apr 24 14 12:39 am Link |
