veypurr wrote:
I really don't taste much difference in fancy coffee and regular coffee. I used to drink fancy coffee then one day I ran out and realized regular coffee is just about the same.

Some of the cheaper coffees have a weird metallic taste about them. I don't know what it is, but I find it pretty unpleasant.

But mainstream coffee brands have improved significantly over the past few years, I think primarily due to competition from smaller roasteries and family owned companies who care a lot about flavor and whatnot.

8 O'Clock brand coffee used to be pretty gross, but it's good now. I also kind of enjoy Bustello, but I think it's due to nostalgia. In 2012, I lived on dry beans and grits from the dollar store, because I was extremely broke. The dollar store near my house also carried ground Bustello, which I made in an espresso maker I found for $3 at Goodwill. It was comforting somehow and felt luxurious at the time. I now have the ability to buy other types of coffee, but still enjoy Bustello. It's still cheap and they still sell it at the dollar store.

Kirkland's brand from Costco is really good, and it's 3 pounds for about $12.

AgX wrote:

But do you still bring your own juicer? That's the important question.

Aw, shucks! You remember! Hahahaha

I had to give away a bunch of my stuff before I moved to the west coast. Sadly, the juicer went with it. I might replace it at some point though.

Alexandra Vincent wrote:

Some of the cheaper coffees have a weird metallic taste about them. I don't know what it is, but I find it pretty unpleasant.

But mainstream coffee brands have improved significantly over the past few years, I think primarily due to competition from smaller roasteries and family owned companies who care a lot about flavor and whatnot.

8 O'Clock brand coffee used to be pretty gross, but it's good now. I also kind of enjoy Bustello, but I think it's due to nostalgia. In 2012, I lived on dry beans and grits from the dollar store, because I was extremely broke. The dollar store near my house also carried ground Bustello, which I made in an espresso maker I found for $3 at Goodwill. It was comforting somehow and felt luxurious at the time. I now have the ability to buy other types of coffee, but still enjoy Bustello. It's still cheap and they still sell it at the dollar store.

Kirkland's brand from Costco is really good, and it's 3 pounds for about $12.

I like Cafe Bustello!   

Alexandra Vincent wrote:

Some of the cheaper coffees have a weird metallic taste about them. I don't know what it is, but I find it pretty unpleasant.

But mainstream coffee brands have improved significantly over the past few years, I think primarily due to competition from smaller roasteries and family owned companies who care a lot about flavor and whatnot.

8 O'Clock brand coffee used to be pretty gross, but it's good now. I also kind of enjoy Bustello, but I think it's due to nostalgia. In 2012, I lived on dry beans and grits from the dollar store, because I was extremely broke. The dollar store near my house also carried ground Bustello, which I made in an espresso maker I found for $3 at Goodwill. It was comforting somehow and felt luxurious at the time. I now have the ability to buy other types of coffee, but still enjoy Bustello. It's still cheap and they still sell it at the dollar store.

Kirkland's brand from Costco is really good, and it's 3 pounds for about $12.

That's the one I drink now!!

Chuckarelei wrote:
I'm too cheap and unwilling to pay for those over-priced, over-hyped, over-fadded so-called coffee.

+1000. I'll just stick with my Maxwell House Original Blend. I've been drinking it for years and never get tired of it.

Camera Buff wrote:
I have an outstanding pre-shoot meeting invitation from a newbie model who works down the road at the local local coffee shop.

I don't care much about the 'coffee date' debate or if 'pre-shoot meetings' are, or are not necessary. The fact is I don't like the amateur cups of coffee I make for myself as much as I love the professional coffee's served at the local coffee shops.

So regardless of your POV - I am going!

My question to you all is ... should I meet the newbie model at the coffee house where she works, or should we go some place different/neutral?

*recoils in terror* don't go to her work LOL
You don't mix model work with reg work. Full stop. Its uncomfortable imo

Taylor Kate f wrote:
*recoils in terror* don't go to her work LOL
You don't mix model work with reg work. Full stop. Its uncomfortable imo

Agreed (with the sole exception of a model who worked at one of the better sushi restaurants in town, who always wanted to talk about modeling and shoots when I took someone there).

One suggestion:

Have some concrete ideas and concepts to talk about (if not a mood board or at least some reference photos on your notebook).

Be ready to lay out your thoughts about the shoot (genres, concepts, wardrobe, makeup, hair, lighting, moods) – and listen to hers.

Taylor Kate f wrote:
*recoils in terror* don't go to her work LOL
You don't mix model work with reg work. Full stop. Its uncomfortable imo

Some good advice for the socially awkward.

I’m a much older gentleman who has not kept pace with the evolution in gender etiquette.

As my pre-shoot meeting is with someone of your age and gender, I would love to hear more of your good advice and/or tips on how to prevent awkward mistakes.

Camerosity wrote:
Agreed (with the sole exception of a model who worked at one of the better sushi restaurants in town, who always wanted to talk about modeling and shoots when I took someone there).

One suggestion:

Have some concrete ideas and concepts to talk about (if not a mood board or at least some reference photos on your notebook).

Be ready to lay out your thoughts about the shoot (genres, concepts, wardrobe, makeup, hair, lighting, moods) – and listen to hers.

Excellent advice and suggestions. In the past my biggest problem has been that I may have overwhelmed my models with too many of my own ideas – and possibly not listened to, or liked theirs.

This time around, the model and I have become 'temporary' friends on facebook. Where we have set up a number of 'contributor only' Albums. One I use to post my ideas, another is for the model to post hers. We have done a first round cull of each others ideas and when we meet we intend to cull our ideas down to a select few.

There is also an Album containing pictures of all the wardrobe and props that I have acquired over time to suit the many different ideas I have had for photo shoots. Sometimes, not always, models will choose items out of my studio wardrobe to wear in their own concepts.

I mostly do TF* and to get the services of local professional Hair and/or Makeup professionals on board, I sometimes like to take a few informal test shots, just to be confident my model is comfortable being photographed and/or to get some suitable images to show the other creatives, who before they'll agree to collaborate will often ask to see a true and natural photograph of the model.

Camera Buff wrote:
As my pre-shoot meeting is with someone of your age and gender, I would love to hear more of your good advice and/or tips on how to prevent awkward mistakes.

It’s pretty much common sense.

At a pre-shoot meeting (although I rarely if ever have them; my shoots are mostly planned using PMs on MM, Pinterest, emailed reference photos, etc.), you want to explain your concept for the shoot, listen to and consider hers, discuss, and be sure that you’re on the same page.

One reason is that there are times when I have six or more shoots in the planning stages at the same time. Did Model A say that, or was it Model B? If everything’s in writing, I can easily refresh my memory on which model said what.

Even if it’s a trade shoot, and nobody’s being paid, think of the shoot as a joint creative venture with the model, not a social event. (Well, sometimes when I shoot my closest model friends, it’s more like a social event – especially if more than one of them is there. But that is not the norm.)

Act your age (not the model’s age).

Be careful what you say about other people. In most cities, this is a fairly small community, and you never know who is best friends with whom. Don’t talk about politics or religion.

The model (male or female) and other participants (including the client, if there is one) expect the photographer (male or female) to be in charge of the shoot – and ultimately responsible for the results.

Communicate with the model before the shoot. If possible, involve the model in planning the shoot. Listen to his/her ideas and consider them. When possible send the model (and the MUA and other participants) reference photos or a mood board.

To the extent possible, everyone involved should know what you’re shooting, in what order, where you’re shooting, what moods and looks you’re going for, what wardrobe will be used, etc.

At the beginning of planning a trade shoot, I ask the model to describe her dream shoot (I don't recall ever using that term with a male model), what  concept(s) she has been dying to shoot, or if there's wardrobe that she really wants to be photographed in.

Everyone should know what to expect and what’s expected, so there are no nasty surprises at the shoot.

Greet the model when he/she arrives for the shoot.

If there’s a release for the model to sign, hand it to the model when he/she arrives, so he/she can read it (if you haven’t already emailed a PDF file of the release).

Be present when makeup and hair are done, not only to oversee and make sure things are moving in the right direction, but to talk to the model and break the ice, to help make the model comfortable when shooting begins.

If you’re using hard lighting that’s going to result in specular highlights on the forehead and below the eyes, ask the MUA to use some powder in those spots before shooting begins.

Tell the model a little bit about how you work. If you have any communication code words or phrases, let him/her know what they mean.

For example, “don’t move” before I push the shutter button means that I want to shoot that same pose again, possibly from a different angle.

“Let’s work with that” means that the pose is good, and you’d like to do some variations of it before changing the pose entirely. It may mean that, if the model has been free posing or flow posing, you’re going to be giving more direction for the next few to several shots.

“Perfect lighting” means that the model has found the lighting sweet spot, and he/she should make only small, incremental changes that don’t significantly affect the lighting for the next few poses.

(Even if the lights aren’t moved at all during a shoot, every turn of the head and every movement of a few inches affects the lighting ON THE MODEL.)

Even though the model may be the expert on modeling, you’re the expert on how the model looks FROM THE CAMERA POSITION. The model can’t see that. That’s one reason why communication and direction are so important to a model.

Explain to the model that, most of the time, when you suggest an adjustment, you’re looking for a minor adjustment, not a big one.

The less setting up you have to do when the model’s prepped and ready to shoot, the better.

Most models thrive on (even constant) communication and feedback during the shoot. They want to know that they’re giving you the look and expressions that you want, and they want to know how they’re doing (from your perspective).

Silence generally leads to an awkward and unproductive shoot. Even if the model is confident in his/her ability, they still want to know how things are going from your perspective.

You can do that by saying things like “Beautiful,” “That’s great!”. “That’s the shot!” – or by giving direction when adjustments need to be made.

Tell the model which light is the main light, and how much or how little the model can move, based on the lighting setup.

When shooting begins, it may start like this. “How was the drive from (wherever)? Did you have any problem finding the studio? Turn your head to your left just a fraction. Not quite that much. Chin up just a little. Eyes toward me. That’s great! Were you able to park nearby?”

As the shoot progresses, communication becomes more focused on the shoot.

Tell the model periodically what you’re shooting – full length, ¾ length (from mid-thigh up), waist up, chest up, headshots, etc., and what that means from the model’s perspective.

For example, if you’re shooting ¾ length, you want the model’s hands to be above midi-thigh. If you’re shooting from the waist up, you want her the hands to stay above the waist.

If I stop to move a light or change a lens, I tell the model what I’m doing and why, just to keep the communication/banter going.

Don’t be too serious, and don’t take yourself too seriously.

Stop periodically and check the model’s hair and makeup. If the makeup needs to be freshened, get the MUA on set. If there are flyaway hairs or hairs covering part of the model’s face, tell her or tell the hair stylist.

Don’t just fix them yourself, and don’t touch the model without permission.

Show the model the photos on the LCD screen on the back of your camera from time to time.

Notice how the model is responding. If it seems that the model could use a break, ask – or just suggest a break.

I think that pretty much covers it.

Btw, I’m probably older than you are…

Camera Buff wrote:
This time around, the model and I have become 'temporary' friends on facebook. Where we have set up a number of 'contributor only' Albums. One I use to post my ideas, another is for the model to post hers.

You can do the same thing on Pinterest (with only one password-protected album that both of you can add to or subtract from) and do the correspondence by PM on MM.

Camera Buff wrote:
There is also an Album containing pictures of all the wardrobe and props that I have acquired over time to suit the many different ideas I have had for photo shoots. Sometimes, not always, models will choose items out of my studio wardrobe to wear in their own concepts

You can do that on Pinterest as well. Just invite each model you’re working with to join the album, and give the model the password.

There are several items that I’ve acquired (very inexpensively) from Cassie Brock (Katy Perry’s and Pink’s clothing designer/wardrobe stylist, who I’ve been told has also worked with Lady Gaga), and photos of most of them are there (including a photo of Katy in concert wearing a turquoise and gold “snake dress” that I now own an exact replica of). The dress, which has never been worn, cost me $15 (about 1/10 what Katy paid for hers).

Camera Buff wrote:
There is also an Album containing pictures of all the wardrobe and props that I have acquired over time to suit the many different ideas I have had for photo shoots. Sometimes, not always, models will choose items out of my studio wardrobe to wear in their own concepts.

When you’re working with an MUA or MUAH, especially for trade, it’s a good idea to get some headshots of the makeup for their portfolios. Some would rather have those instead of (or in addition to) the actual photos from the shoot.

Hint: When you’re doing headshots, it’s best to start with those, while the makeup and hair are still fresh.

Camerosity wrote:
It’s pretty much common sense.

If only common sense was more common.
I sincerely appreciate the information and advice you have kindly shared.

Camera Buff wrote:
My question to you all is ... should I meet the newbie model at the coffee house where she works, or should we go some place different/neutral?

While I personally would lean toward neutral, why not just ask the model for her input on the matter of meeting location? It demonstrates to her that you're at least thinking of her comfort, and gives her the power to maximize that comfort (or convenience, or whatever). You're treating the model as an adult person who can make decisions, instead of someone for whom you need to control everything.

If you shoot enough people, you'll discover those who keep their worlds completely separate, and those whose coworkers know every aspect of their lives, and everyone in between.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Years ago I had a planned shoot where I was paying a model.   She showed and had put on significant weight which she acknowledge since posting here.   I simply couldn't use her and a short meet for coffee would have saved both of us time.  I wouldn't have booked a MUA and she wouldn't have had to make a long trip to me as I would have met her closer to her home.   On a side note its insulting that a member has said look at those who want to meet before portfolios.   Its that kind of garbage that turns people off from these forums.   I feel its always a good idea to meet socially for a bit before shooting.  The best images often come when people are comfortable with each other and even friendly.   Several years ago I did a brief meet up with two models I planned to shoot.

One had some ugly things to say about the second model who she saw her as she left meeting me.   She was very critical of a photographer I knew (she didn't know I knew him) I decided then not to shoot her.   Life's too short for unnecessary drama.   Certainly meeting before hand isn't something that many models can do.  Especially those who travel but photographers if you're paying and in some cases even for trade you may save yourself a lot of headaches with a short pre-shoot meet.

You can learn a lot, just by asking a model to participate in planning the shoot. Those who are lazy, aren’t serious, are disrespectful of other people’s time or are prone to flake seem to disqualify themselves at that stage.

Camerosity wrote:

You can learn a lot, just by asking a model to participate in planning the shoot. Those who are lazy, aren’t serious, are disrespectful of other people’s time or are prone to flake seem to disqualify themselves at that stage.

No disagreement on your points.  I have been an assistant for several pro fashion and advertising shooters and to a person they ALL knew the models they shot.  They would meet them when the models visited the studios at networking events or castings.  However meeting people to gauge how serious they are,  lazy  or if they will show wasn't my point.   Mine was to see them in person and get a feel for their personality.  It can clear up any questions they or you might have.  One example was at a past meeting at a Starbucks a potential model asked if nude meant naked because she wasn't okay with actually showing her breasts or bum.   She was only fine with shots where most of her body was covered by sheets or fabric.   

I find that models who are very shy aren't always good choices to shoot.  These are things you can sometimes find out during a brief meet up.   Again this isn't to say what works best and I've worked with a lot of models who I only met at the session.  However going forward I will NEVER shoot another model I plan to pay without meeting her first in person.

FFantastique wrote:
There are a lot of posts: does anyone write digests?! 😊

Some says yes and some says no.
Same as it ever was.

Roberto De Micheli wrote:
My opinion, for what it's worth...

I value your opinion and share your sentiments.

Roberto De Micheli wrote:
If this will cause hilarity about my photos, so be it

Your photos are SO good, it's not funny!

FFantastique wrote:
There are a lot of posts: does anyone write digests?! 😊

The posts I read can influence my photography, so I try to read only the good stuff. 😊

Tony Lawrence wrote:
No disagreement on your points.  I have been an assistant for several pro fashion and advertising shooters and to a person they ALL knew the models they shot.  They would meet them when the models visited the studios at networking events or castings.  However meeting people to gauge how serious they are,  lazy  or if they will show wasn't my point.   Mine was to see them in person and get a feel for their personality.  It can clear up any questions they or you might have.  One example was at a past meeting at a Starbucks a potential model asked if nude meant naked because she wasn't okay with actually showing her breasts or bum.   She was only fine with shots where most of her body was covered by sheets or fabric.   

I find that models who are very shy aren't always good choices to shoot.  These are things you can sometimes find out during a brief meet up.   Again this isn't to say what works best and I've worked with a lot of models who I only met at the session.  However going forward I will NEVER shoot another model I plan to pay without meeting her first in person.

Working with models from Top 10 agencies is an entirely different world from MM. I assumed that that wasn’t the topic here.

Those models are used to being handled (but not groped) throughout a shoot by an MUA, hair stylist and wardrobe stylist – and as often as not at least one of them is of the opposite gender.

They think nothing about it if the photographer fixes their hair or straightens a garment, if there’s no ulterior motive and the MUA or the wardrobe stylist isn’t handy at the moment.

They LOVE to do a go-see at a photographer’s studio with the photographer and an art director, casting director or some other representative(s) of the client or the client’s ad agency and even do test shots – because that usually means that there’s a 1-in-3 chance that they’re going to a high-paying job.

That’s an integral part of the client and the client’s representatives selecting a model, and it’s the type of pre-shoot meeting that serves a purpose and therefore is productive.

There’s one MUA from MM with whom I’ve worked who is constantly checking the hair and makeup (and even wardrobe). All MUAs and stylists should do that.

Several times, during a four-hour shoot, I would look through the viewfinder and see the MUA’s hands on the model – and there were 13 photos from one shoot with the MUA’s hands in them, because she decided to fix something just before I pushed the shutter button.

Usually, she is on and off the set in less a minute — with less disruption of the rhythm and flow of the shoot than there would have been if she had announced that she was about to fix something, and everything had stopped.

The thing about most pre-shoot meetups with MM models (at least in my experience that that of other photographers I know) aren’t about discussing and planning the shoot. They’re about the model deciding whether she should show up with a bodyguard – or not show up at all.

If the photographer is going to go to one, at least he/she may as well try to make it productive.

In the last several years, a majority of my shoots have been with models I’ve already shot at least once – or met at another photographer’s studio or while helping out a friend with a workshop, etc.

There are two models (who happen to be best friends) whom I met at different time in 2011. Since then, according to the asterisks on my profile page, I’ve shot them a total of 28 time combined. (I think 20 is about right for one of them, but with the other, I’m pretty sure that the number is more like 13-14 than 8.)

They are always introducing me to other models of sending them my way.

If I’m doing a shoot with a model from the Peoria area (which, btw, has more talented models per square foot than St. Louis), there are three models and three photographers I can ask about the model – and when the model arrives for a shoot, she knows more about me than some of my best friends know. Same with Nashville, Memphis, Denver and other cities.

Also, in the process of planning a shoot with several PMs and emails (and occasionally a phone call or two), I can learn a lot about model, and she can learn a lot about me.

Maybe I’ve just been lucky. I’ve done 250-300 shoots since I started shooting again in 2011, and offhand I can only think of four that I wish I hadn’t done.

One was the first shoot for a brand new model who, as it turned out, was in her own little world, didn’t listen to direction and was constantly dancing or otherwise in motion. Some photographers like it when the model is constantly in motion, but I’m not one of them.

I got two good (but not great) photos from that shoot. Another photographer saw them and asked the model to do a PAID shoot, got NO usable photos and jokingly threatened to sue me for “false advertising.”

Two were with models who bought escorts (their boyfriends) to the shoot. The boyfriends disrupted the shoot and made it totally unproductive. One model went to the dressing room in tears and then she wasn’t in the right frame of mind to continue the shoot.

The other model grabbed her stuff, got in her Mustang and drove off, leaving her bf/escort stranded at the studio. I called a taxi for him.

The fourth was a model who had asked me to a nude shoot and, the night before the shoot, said she had decided that she wanted to shoot something else.

The main reason why I regret doing that shoot is that, no matter how I tried to coax an expression from her, I ended up with a few hundred shots with the same expression (which wasn’t a very good one).

There was another model whose bf got in a shouting match with the model (these disagreements always seem to be about wardrobe) that lasted 15-20 minutes – and tried to steal a $1200 lens from me.

He hid the lens under a table in a corner of the studio, about 30 feet from where were shooting. When she banished him to the lounge upstairs, he was unable to retrieve it.

After that, the model’s poses and expressions were off. However, I got some good photos before that, and I’m not sorry that I did the shoot.

About a month later, the model (who lives in California) contacted me, said she had finally dumped the bf, said she can now shoot whatever she wants, and asked if she could come back for a nude shoot “as soon as I lose the 10 pounds I’ve gained because of this controlling relationship.”

Those shoots were before I banned bf/escorts from my studio (unless there’s a good reason for them to be there¬).

Another shoot started out as a fashion shoot with a very good model who told me, about 45 minutes into the shoot, that she was also a dancer at the Hustler Club across the river in Illinois, and her “husband” was actually the bouncer at the club.

She was extremely happy with the shoot, and toward the end of it, she decided that she wanted to do some implieds.

Everything was cordial, and the next day she highly recommended me to two of her model friends, both of whom I shot later. I shot a lingerie calendar with one of them.

She not only decided that she wanted 3x as many photos as we had agreed upon. She claimed in the descriptions in her portfolio that she owned the copyrights to the photos.

I had made an exception (my mistake) and sent her four unretouched photos as “previews,” on the condition that she not post them anywhere. The next day, they were in her portfolio, and she refused to take them down.

At that point, I stopped retouching and sending her photos. She did agree not to credit me for the unretouched photos.

Even though we aren’t on speaking terms, I don’t regret doing that shoot, either. Shooting with her was a joy, I still have a couple of photos of her in my portfolio. Last time I checked (a few years ago), she still had mine in hers. And I got to work with her model friends.

These were all tests (aka trade shoots) – and about half of them (and more than half of my shoots overall) involved models who live more than 200 miles away, and a pre-shoot meetup wouldn’t have been practical or even possible.

The point, though, is that I doubt that there would have been warning signs of any of those situations during a pre-shoot meetup.

Ymmv, and I wouldn’t suggest changing whatever works for you.

Taylor Kate f wrote:
Hey,

So I work with agencies and also freelance. Am I the only one that finds pre-shoot coffee dates odd? If I get booked through my agency there is no meeting the creative team beforehand as that takes time and time = money. It's one thing to verify I am really over a telephone call or social media which I am totally okay with, but the whole pre-shoot to see if we "like each other" or "discuss ideas" just smacks of a male photographer 20-40 years older than me trying to get me out on a date with the facade of it being necessary for the shoot.

I'm not trying to be rude, I just feel like photographers are trying to take advantage of a young girl tbh.

Thoughts everyone??

I don't see why anyone would need to do that. It's their job to be organised enough to have prepared the shoot and let you know what you are doing in advance, that does not require a pre-shoot meet. It's a total waste of money and time. Also, the idea a photographer on a paid shoot would need to interview someone for their personality is absurd and also a waste of time and money. Stay safe!

garybuntonfoto wrote:
No disrespect intended but if you are agency represented in what appears to be 4 countries as your bio states, what in the world do you expect to gain working with third rate photographers at a best here on this site.  I'm rarely on here but when I am I'm always amused by the overwhelming compliments given to people with no talent or beauty, but hey it's free. It seems like a dating site. Mind you I'm not saying you are one of them, but I'd run from this site if I were you.

cheers,
g

Calls photographers on this site "Third Rate", yet is a photographer on this site.

Says it seems like a dating site, yet is rarely on here.

Says models should run from photographers on this site, yet is a photographer on this site. 

At this point, I'd likely give my opinion about what you have to say; but I realized if I go any deeper down this rabbit hole, I'll likely get brigged.

garybuntonfoto wrote:
No disrespect intended but if you are agency represented in what appears to be 4 countries as your bio states, what in the world do you expect to gain working with third rate photographers at a best here on this site.  I'm rarely on here but when I am I'm always amused by the overwhelming compliments given to people with no talent or beauty, but hey it's free. It seems like a dating site. Mind you I'm not saying you are one of them, but I'd run from this site if I were you.

cheers,
g

(edit )  I see that Mr Eros has already covered my concern

Camerosity wrote:

Working with models from Top 10 agencies is an entirely different world from MM. I assumed that that wasn’t the topic here.

Those models are used to being handled (but not groped) throughout a shoot by an MUA, hair stylist and wardrobe stylist – and as often as not at least one of them is of the opposite gender.

They think nothing about it if the photographer fixes their hair or straightens a garment, if there’s no ulterior motive and the MUA or the wardrobe stylist isn’t handy at the moment.

They LOVE to do a go-see at a photographer’s studio with the photographer and an art director, casting director or some other representative(s) of the client or the client’s ad agency and even do test shots – because that usually means that there’s a 1-in-3 chance that they’re going to a high-paying job.

That’s an integral part of the client and the client’s representatives selecting a model, and it’s the type of pre-shoot meeting that serves a purpose and therefore is productive.

There’s one MUA from MM with whom I’ve worked who is constantly checking the hair and makeup (and even wardrobe). All MUAs and stylists should do that.

Several times, during a four-hour shoot, I would look through the viewfinder and see the MUA’s hands on the model – and there were 13 photos from one shoot with the MUA’s hands in them, because she decided to fix something just before I pushed the shutter button.

Usually, she is on and off the set in less a minute — with less disruption of the rhythm and flow of the shoot than there would have been if she had announced that she was about to fix something, and everything had stopped.

The thing about most pre-shoot meetups with MM models (at least in my experience that that of other photographers I know) aren’t about discussing and planning the shoot. They’re about the model deciding whether she should show up with a bodyguard – or not show up at all.

If the photographer is going to go to one, at least he/she may as well try to make it productive.

In the last several years, a majority of my shoots have been with models I’ve already shot at least once – or met at another photographer’s studio or while helping out a friend with a workshop, etc.

There are two models (who happen to be best friends) whom I met at different time in 2011. Since then, according to the asterisks on my profile page, I’ve shot them a total of 28 time combined. (I think 20 is about right for one of them, but with the other, I’m pretty sure that the number is more like 13-14 than 8.)

They are always introducing me to other models of sending them my way.

If I’m doing a shoot with a model from the Peoria area (which, btw, has more talented models per square foot than St. Louis), there are three models and three photographers I can ask about the model – and when the model arrives for a shoot, she knows more about me than some of my best friends know. Same with Nashville, Memphis, Denver and other cities.

Also, in the process of planning a shoot with several PMs and emails (and occasionally a phone call or two), I can learn a lot about model, and she can learn a lot about me.

Maybe I’ve just been lucky. I’ve done 250-300 shoots since I started shooting again in 2011, and offhand I can only think of four that I wish I hadn’t done.

One was the first shoot for a brand new model who, as it turned out, was in her own little world, didn’t listen to direction and was constantly dancing or otherwise in motion. Some photographers like it when the model is constantly in motion, but I’m not one of them.

I got two good (but not great) photos from that shoot. Another photographer saw them and asked the model to do a PAID shoot, got NO usable photos and jokingly threatened to sue me for “false advertising.”

Two were with models who bought escorts (their boyfriends) to the shoot. The boyfriends disrupted the shoot and made it totally unproductive. One model went to the dressing room in tears and then she wasn’t in the right frame of mind to continue the shoot.

The other model grabbed her stuff, got in her Mustang and drove off, leaving her bf/escort stranded at the studio. I called a taxi for him.

The fourth was a model who had asked me to a nude shoot and, the night before the shoot, said she had decided that she wanted to shoot something else.

The main reason why I regret doing that shoot is that, no matter how I tried to coax an expression from her, I ended up with a few hundred shots with the same expression (which wasn’t a very good one).

There was another model whose bf got in a shouting match with the model (these disagreements always seem to be about wardrobe) that lasted 15-20 minutes – and tried to steal a $1200 lens from me.

He hid the lens under a table in a corner of the studio, about 30 feet from where were shooting. When she banished him to the lounge upstairs, he was unable to retrieve it.

After that, the model’s poses and expressions were off. However, I got some good photos before that, and I’m not sorry that I did the shoot.

About a month later, the model (who lives in California) contacted me, said she had finally dumped the bf, said she can now shoot whatever she wants, and asked if she could come back for a nude shoot “as soon as I lose the 10 pounds I’ve gained because of this controlling relationship.”

Those shoots were before I banned bf/escorts from my studio (unless there’s a good reason for them to be there¬).

Another shoot started out as a fashion shoot with a very good model who told me, about 45 minutes into the shoot, that she was also a dancer at the Hustler Club across the river in Illinois, and her “husband” was actually the bouncer at the club.

She was extremely happy with the shoot, and toward the end of it, she decided that she wanted to do some implieds.

Everything was cordial, and the next day she highly recommended me to two of her model friends, both of whom I shot later. I shot a lingerie calendar with one of them.

She not only decided that she wanted 3x as many photos as we had agreed upon. She claimed in the descriptions in her portfolio that she owned the copyrights to the photos.

I had made an exception (my mistake) and sent her four unretouched photos as “previews,” on the condition that she not post them anywhere. The next day, they were in her portfolio, and she refused to take them down.

At that point, I stopped retouching and sending her photos. She did agree not to credit me for the unretouched photos.

Even though we aren’t on speaking terms, I don’t regret doing that shoot, either. Shooting with her was a joy, I still have a couple of photos of her in my portfolio. Last time I checked (a few years ago), she still had mine in hers. And I got to work with her model friends.

These were all tests (aka trade shoots) – and about half of them (and more than half of my shoots overall) involved models who live more than 200 miles away, and a pre-shoot meetup wouldn’t have been practical or even possible.

The point, though, is that I doubt that there would have been warning signs of any of those situations during a pre-shoot meetup.

Ymmv, and I wouldn’t suggest changing whatever works for you.

Thats a Lot of Drama

It makes my head spin just reading about it

Camerosity wrote:

Working with models from Top 10 agencies is an entirely different world from MM. I assumed that that wasn’t the topic here.

Those models are used to being handled (but not groped) throughout a shoot by an MUA, hair stylist and wardrobe stylist – and as often as not at least one of them is of the opposite gender.

They think nothing about it if the photographer fixes their hair or straightens a garment, if there’s no ulterior motive and the MUA or the wardrobe stylist isn’t handy at the moment.

They LOVE to do a go-see at a photographer’s studio with the photographer and an art director, casting director or some other representative(s) of the client or the client’s ad agency and even do test shots – because that usually means that there’s a 1-in-3 chance that they’re going to a high-paying job.

That’s an integral part of the client and the client’s representatives selecting a model, and it’s the type of pre-shoot meeting that serves a purpose and therefore is productive.

There’s one MUA from MM with whom I’ve worked who is constantly checking the hair and makeup (and even wardrobe). All MUAs and stylists should do that.

Several times, during a four-hour shoot, I would look through the viewfinder and see the MUA’s hands on the model – and there were 13 photos from one shoot with the MUA’s hands in them, because she decided to fix something just before I pushed the shutter button.

Usually, she is on and off the set in less a minute — with less disruption of the rhythm and flow of the shoot than there would have been if she had announced that she was about to fix something, and everything had stopped.

The thing about most pre-shoot meetups with MM models (at least in my experience that that of other photographers I know) aren’t about discussing and planning the shoot. They’re about the model deciding whether she should show up with a bodyguard – or not show up at all.

If the photographer is going to go to one, at least he/she may as well try to make it productive.

In the last several years, a majority of my shoots have been with models I’ve already shot at least once – or met at another photographer’s studio or while helping out a friend with a workshop, etc.

There are two models (who happen to be best friends) whom I met at different time in 2011. Since then, according to the asterisks on my profile page, I’ve shot them a total of 28 time combined. (I think 20 is about right for one of them, but with the other, I’m pretty sure that the number is more like 13-14 than 8.)

They are always introducing me to other models of sending them my way.

If I’m doing a shoot with a model from the Peoria area (which, btw, has more talented models per square foot than St. Louis), there are three models and three photographers I can ask about the model – and when the model arrives for a shoot, she knows more about me than some of my best friends know. Same with Nashville, Memphis, Denver and other cities.

Also, in the process of planning a shoot with several PMs and emails (and occasionally a phone call or two), I can learn a lot about model, and she can learn a lot about me.

Maybe I’ve just been lucky. I’ve done 250-300 shoots since I started shooting again in 2011, and offhand I can only think of four that I wish I hadn’t done.

One was the first shoot for a brand new model who, as it turned out, was in her own little world, didn’t listen to direction and was constantly dancing or otherwise in motion. Some photographers like it when the model is constantly in motion, but I’m not one of them.

I got two good (but not great) photos from that shoot. Another photographer saw them and asked the model to do a PAID shoot, got NO usable photos and jokingly threatened to sue me for “false advertising.”

Two were with models who bought escorts (their boyfriends) to the shoot. The boyfriends disrupted the shoot and made it totally unproductive. One model went to the dressing room in tears and then she wasn’t in the right frame of mind to continue the shoot.

The other model grabbed her stuff, got in her Mustang and drove off, leaving her bf/escort stranded at the studio. I called a taxi for him.

The fourth was a model who had asked me to a nude shoot and, the night before the shoot, said she had decided that she wanted to shoot something else.

The main reason why I regret doing that shoot is that, no matter how I tried to coax an expression from her, I ended up with a few hundred shots with the same expression (which wasn’t a very good one).

There was another model whose bf got in a shouting match with the model (these disagreements always seem to be about wardrobe) that lasted 15-20 minutes – and tried to steal a $1200 lens from me.

He hid the lens under a table in a corner of the studio, about 30 feet from where were shooting. When she banished him to the lounge upstairs, he was unable to retrieve it.

After that, the model’s poses and expressions were off. However, I got some good photos before that, and I’m not sorry that I did the shoot.

About a month later, the model (who lives in California) contacted me, said she had finally dumped the bf, said she can now shoot whatever she wants, and asked if she could come back for a nude shoot “as soon as I lose the 10 pounds I’ve gained because of this controlling relationship.”

Those shoots were before I banned bf/escorts from my studio (unless there’s a good reason for them to be there¬).

Another shoot started out as a fashion shoot with a very good model who told me, about 45 minutes into the shoot, that she was also a dancer at the Hustler Club across the river in Illinois, and her “husband” was actually the bouncer at the club.

She was extremely happy with the shoot, and toward the end of it, she decided that she wanted to do some implieds.

Everything was cordial, and the next day she highly recommended me to two of her model friends, both of whom I shot later. I shot a lingerie calendar with one of them.

She not only decided that she wanted 3x as many photos as we had agreed upon. She claimed in the descriptions in her portfolio that she owned the copyrights to the photos.

I had made an exception (my mistake) and sent her four unretouched photos as “previews,” on the condition that she not post them anywhere. The next day, they were in her portfolio, and she refused to take them down.

At that point, I stopped retouching and sending her photos. She did agree not to credit me for the unretouched photos.

Even though we aren’t on speaking terms, I don’t regret doing that shoot, either. Shooting with her was a joy, I still have a couple of photos of her in my portfolio. Last time I checked (a few years ago), she still had mine in hers. And I got to work with her model friends.

These were all tests (aka trade shoots) – and about half of them (and more than half of my shoots overall) involved models who live more than 200 miles away, and a pre-shoot meetup wouldn’t have been practical or even possible.

The point, though, is that I doubt that there would have been warning signs of any of those situations during a pre-shoot meetup.

Ymmv, and I wouldn’t suggest changing whatever works for you.

Wow, you've covered everything.   I'll try and keep my response brief.  The OP has asked if meeting photographers before a shoot is a waste of time and a way for older photographers to get a cheap date.  From her OP..." but the whole pre-shoot to see if we "like each other" or "discuss ideas" just smacks of a male photographer 20-40 years older than me trying to get me out on a date with the facade of it being necessary for the shoot."    In some cases she might be right however for me and others it serves several purposes.  It gives me a chance to see the model in person and second a chance to see how we get along.  That may not seem important to some but for me it is.  I had a potential model criticize my work for example when we met.  This a woman who reached out to me to work together.   A difficult person who can't take direction well is a pain as well.    A short pre shoot meet can help a photographer get an idea about how a model may perform at a shoot and may save everyone time and headaches plus it lets you know if she's gained weight or if her photos have been over photoshopped.

We should all do what fits us best and if the OP feels meeting before a session (paid) is a waste of time she shouldn't go.  Problem solved.

Jorge Kreimer wrote:
The funny thing is; I met my wife on a pre-shoot meeting that she requested

First date!   

Jorge Kreimer wrote:
The funny thing is; I met my wife on a pre-shoot meeting that she requested

Ultimate bait-and-switch!

Camera Buff wrote:

Roberto De Micheli wrote:
My opinion, for what it's worth...

I value your opinion and share your sentiments.


Your photos are SO good, it's not funny!

Thank you

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

First date!   

Pretty much. A 30 minute meeting turned into a four hour conversation.

PhotographybyT wrote:
I did work with Gina a while back... wow, that was a long time ago.

Gina has gone blonde and has been going to the gym on a regular basis.  Like a fine wine, she is getting better with age!  I want to shoot with her again soon.

Garry k wrote:
Thats a Lot of Drama

It makes my head spin just reading about it

For some reason, the shoots that go smoothly usually don't provide stories or much to talk about.