Laura UnBound wrote:
I've always thought they were a deep waste of time, and yes I feel its more of a way to spend time with models rather than do anything productive. There's nothing so complicated about a shoot that it needs a pre-meet up in person to explain it, if you cant just write it we're not shooting it. and if we're working - not dating - as long as we're simply polite to each other we dont need to "get along" much more than that. People take far less time interviewing for a job theyre going to have for years and years, no employer brings you in to the whole office to test if you're going to "mesh well", etc. It's also impossible for people who live out in the middle of nowhere or for models that travel. Nobody has time for a "pre-shoot-meet-up" with a guy 3 hours away with no guarantee of a shoot to come out of it.

I hear that! x

Taylor Kate f wrote:
Thanks for all of your really insightful replies <3

Thank you for the polite and confident responses to all who replied, which shows that you are secure with who you are. Continue to do things that make you happy and successful while ignoring the rest.

While I have my own opinion about what to look for in a model/person when we first meet, I find that if they are polite and confident, they are instantly more appealing.

Abbitt Photography wrote:
Most models I’ve worked with aren’t local, making preshoot meetings impractical.   However, one of the biggest topics here is model safety when showing up to shoot with an unknown photographer at their private location.  It seems to me a bit hypocritical to argue models take some huge risk in meeting a photographer they’ve never met at his private location, yet also argue that meeting a photographer in public prior to a shoot is a waste of time.

If someone means to do you some kind of harm, it's incredibly easy to put on a good show for the "pre shoot meeting" so that the model feels comfortable coming back for the shoot. The same with "bring an escort until you're so comfortable you dont need one anymore" and all that. Abusive/shitty people arent shitty 100% of the time to 100% of the people they cross, they catch you when your guard is down.

Pre-shoot meetings might clue me into someone just being quiet or loud or shy or talkative or just fuckin weird... but I can work with all of that. I dont need to connect with anybody on a deeper level to get the work done, we dont need to be besties, we dont need to "mesh" - not really. Yes some people I've gotten along with better than others but thats not unlike any other work setting I've ever been in. At the end of the day we're not out here trying to become life partners, we're just trying to complete a goal.

The people who've upset me the most in the last decade werent people who would have gone on some bigoted rant or made sexual passes at me over coffee out in public and warned me not to further any plans to work with them, they're the kind of people who change when you get them behind closed doors.

udor wrote:
Right now, I was approached by a singer, that recently performed at Carnegie Hall, via a recommendation by a photographer friend, to work with her for a set.

I am actually contemplating a "coffee date" with her, to see what she has in mind, because she also will provide makeup artist and hair stylist.

This is something pretty different to having a  pre-shoot coffee meeting with a travelling model for instance...
When there is plenty of time and the opportunity - why not...

Then I am seeing this thread and the model's responses and I am confused.

Never thought of coming off as a middle aged creep until now.
(...)
This is starting to become a world I am not familiar with anymore.

This is starting to become a world full of paranoia and paranoids. And the most weird thing is that some models regard a  "pre-shoot coffee meeting" to be a sign the customer is creepy while other models regard it to be a sign for trustworthiness... *sigh*

Abbitt Photography wrote:
Most models I’ve worked with aren’t local, making preshoot meetings impractical.   However, one of the biggest topics here is model safety when showing up to shoot with an unknown photographer at their private location.  It seems to me a bit hypocritical to argue models take some huge risk in meeting a photographer they’ve never met at his private location, yet also argue that meeting a photographer in public prior to a shoot is a waste of time.

Your position allows to you make adjustments relative to the situation.  Like you, most of the models I shoot are not local.  It is not just inconvenient for me to meet them in advance, it is a burden, sometimes on both of us.  The ones that are local, eh.  What's local?  If I have to jump on a train and go into Philly, meet for coffee, and get home, it is only 30 miles or so each way, but it is going to kill a whole afternoon.  Driving, waiting, train ride, walking, waiting, chatting, walking, waiting, train ride, driving.   (OP, from my perspective that is too much effort to stage a date )

I worked with a model up at Penn State that I had never worked with.  I depended on her knowledge and expertise of the area and she suggested places that we could shoot.  When I got there, I check them out.  We finalized plans and then severe weather became an issue,  We got the shoot done, but I was sweating bullets.  The entire time we were together, we were in a public place.  So, what good would it have done to spend an extra day, 200 miles away from home, to arrange a pre-shoot meeting; or to drive 400 miles round trip on a separate occasion to have a pre shoot meeting?  I had sent her photos and sketches.  She went through her closet for wardrobe.  She showed up, we set up, we shot, she nailed the poses and the wardrobe was great.  She was great.  And every bit of pre-shoot communication was in writing.

Another time, I met a woman who had never modeled, for a figure session at Penn State.  We had a pre-shoot meeting at downtown coffee shop the night before.  I can't honestly remember who initially suggested it.  I knew she had never modeled.  She found me from a flier I had posted in the art department.  I had to be there the day before anyway.  Meeting her for her comfort and in person was no big deal.  I had to walk 10 blocks or so each way.  The only bad thing was enduring the crowd and the noise in the coffee shop.  Then we had a session on private property, in a building where many people could have heard her scream and come to her aid.  Under those circumstance, a pre-shoot meeting was helpful to go over the details, but it didn't change anything about the level of safety afforded the model; just her comfort level.

Then there are the circumstances like Laura is mentioning.  I have never experienced a Jeckyll Hyde moment with a model.  But I use to have this friend that had horses worth more than my house.  She generally shunned people that wanted her to take them riding, but she took me all the time because I had my own horse and she knew I wasn't just taking advantage of her to ride.  I preferred to ride mine over her's anyway.  At some point in her life, she hooked up with a guy and they started to live together.  Everything was fine.  They had three daughters.  Everything was fine.  They got married and he became the most abusive jerk in the world. 

The biggest related local story I can point out, occurred well before I ever worked with a model.   A Canadian model was killed by a photographer with the knowledge of his female assistant.  They dumped her body down the banks of the Schuylkill River near Conshohocken, wrapped in the backdrop, which was the same backdrop that appeared in his portfolio with other models sitting in front of it.  I am not fear mongering by bring this up. The point being, wouldn't the presence of another woman be exactly the thing that would make a model more comfortable on a shoot?  But in this case, it was integral to the crime.  And that is the fallacy in any pretense made by the photographer to provide safety to the model.  The potential victim is not going to be aware of the lengths that a predator is willing to go to subdue her.  Having unvetted assistants provided by the photographer or a pre-shoot meeting, especially with a photographer who is obsessive and controlling, doesn't guarantee model safety one iota.

http://articles.mcall.com/2004-03-25/ne … osed-shoot

Taylor Kate f wrote:
I dooo get what you are saying, on the same hand though, in a perfect world, yes I'd like to get along well with everyone I work with, does it always work that way? No. As a professional, I think you just have to get on with it, even if the chemistry is off. You can't get along with everyone, and I'm not going to say no to working with an amazing photographer/mua/stylist if I worked out our communication style didn't match pre-shoot.

I get what you're saying, too, but there has to be some resemblance of a mutual understanding of the project to pull it all off.  I'm not looking to sing Kumbaya with anyone but I do enjoy working with people who are like minded and strive to create something for more than just me handing them a few bucks to show whatever so I can catch an image of it all.  I'd love to have my pre-shoot meetings be nothing more than getting the specifics of a shoot down before the actual event and to be able to conduct them through email, FaceTime, whatever but that's not the reality with most people on here or who don't do this for a mainstay of their living.  I've worked with some great models who we've knocked out the specifics in mere minutes, both felt comfortable with the other and we were back on our way in short order.  After that initial meet and greet, I've then arranged shoots over the phone, email, etc.  I've watched so many people waste time and money believing the "I only do business via text" model will show or even be what they have represented themself to be.  Life's too short for drama.  Most people with whom do don't get along with or have vastly different styles of how they work will drag some measure of drama into the shoot.  Thanks, but no thanks.  Then there's that annoying thing called safety.  The world's full of crazies.  I'll pass on working with them, too.  For me that few minutes invested in a pre-shoot meeting is all I need to weed out the vast majority of them, though one or two slips through every so often.  When that happens, I'll call the shoot and leave or make them leave.  For the most part, it works for me.

One issue no one is addressing is that within this entire little world of Model Mayhem there are truly very few professional models or photographers.  We can all cite big name pros who have acted like scumbags or tramps, but I'm talking people who take what they do to heart, act accordingly (treating others with respect, not touching inappropriately, etc), showing up on time (if at all) and the list could go on and on.  The problem comes into the equation when people don't act as they should and we spend hours comparing apples and oranges in the forums.  No agency models don't normally do pre-shoot meetings BECAUSE they have someone who pays them giving them all the details that they got from the photographer who provided the specs on the shoot and they depend on that agency for their check and more jobs.  It's a vested interest to fulfill their part.  How many models here are truly agency models who work like that?  I'd venture to say very few.  The same goes for photographers, MUAs and everyone else who gets involved.

Sorry all for the lengthy response.

Taylor Kate f wrote:
Hey,

So I work with agencies and also freelance. Am I the only one that finds pre-shoot coffee dates odd? If I get booked through my agency there is no meeting the creative team beforehand as that takes time and time = money. It's one thing to verify I am real over a telephone call or social media which I am totally okay with, but the whole pre-shoot to see if we "like each other" or "discuss ideas" just smacks of a male photographer 20-40 years older than me trying to get me out on a date with the facade of it being necessary for the shoot.

I'm not trying to be rude, I just feel like photographers are trying to take advantage of a young girl tbh.

Thoughts everyone??

I think your right

MoRina wrote:
I find it amusing to go to the portfolios of those people who insist here that they must have a pre-shoot meeting.

Lol.

I got my laugh for the day.

I am so glad that my portfolio was able to amuse you. That beats the hell out of it sitting there doing nothing.

Different strokes etc.

Answering others comments as well:

Since I generally only shoot local, a coffee meet is only a little time out of each others time.
I am really not that good at communicating in text messages. It will end up being 45 messages for what would have been one coffee. And I find it easier to feed off of others ideas in person. A shoot that would have been nice can turn into amazing because we talked it over and were able to push each other to our limits. Once we are set up for the shoot  (camera ready etc.) I tend to go brain dead, and what was initially planned is what tends to happen. Much less creativity. If I already know the model, then I know how she thinks, so it is easier to plan stuff. And I will already know if she might flake.
And none of the above is always true.

Yes, I am also amused about models complaining about feeling uncomfortable with strange photographers but refusing a pre-shoot meet to see if they get a creeper vibe. Of course to a 19 yr old anybody over 25 is a creeper. Locally there are 2 photographers that are getting bad reps, but young models keep going to them, because they are close to the same age. No complaints about potential grandads.

Agency models never do coffee meets.
OK, there are some here that may have more info, but.
What about 45,000 'go sees' per year.
What about multiple test shoots before the actual shoot.
What 49 fittings before the shoot.
What about showing up 5 hours before the shoot.
And this is for models who will have NO input into the shoot. Who will simply do as they are told.

I happen to appreciate input from the models. I like the trade of ideas. I want the model to try stuff they have not done before, even if it fails. Kind off why it is a "Trade" shoot. My best images have been when ideas were traded. Sometimes it started in a pre-shoot meeting, and other times during the shoot. 

And I have now lost track of all I was going to say, so I'll stop here.

Herman Surkis wrote:
Agency models never do coffee meets.
OK, there are some here that may have more info, but.
What about 45,000 'go sees' per year.
What about multiple test shoots before the actual shoot.
What 49 fittings before the shoot.
What about showing up 5 hours before the shoot.
And this is for models who will have NO input into the shoot. Who will simply do as they are told.

was just getting ready to chime in on that. agency models do get request for "go sees". clients want a face-to-face meeting sometimes. i have also requested a test shoot before a job if the model is relatively new. clothing brands will request a fitting if they are not sure of the model. a packaging image sometimes takes 2-3 rounds of go sees and tests before the final model is picked - because it's a marketing choice and a 0.1% difference in sales makes a huge difference in the profit margin.

also, hearing from a lot of internet freelance models, sometimes the blind shoot does turn out to be a date. non-pros don't have any kind of understanding of set etiquette, behavior limits not reasonable ethics anymore:
https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post/975330
https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post/975342
https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post/974896

you need street smarts and good communication skills, which a lot of beginners on all sides lack.

MoRina wrote:
I find it amusing to go to the portfolios of those people who insist here that they must have a pre-shoot meeting.

Lol.

I got my laugh for the day.

I insist on a coffee date with you before any shoots can be arranged...

Herman Surkis wrote:

I am so glad that my portfolio was able to amuse you. That beats the hell out of it sitting there doing nothing.

Different strokes etc.

Answering others comments as well:

Since I generally only shoot local, a coffee meet is only a little time out of each others time.
I am really not that good at communicating in text messages. It will end up being 45 messages for what would have been one coffee. And I find it easier to feed off of others ideas in person. A shoot that would have been nice can turn into amazing because we talked it over and were able to push each other to our limits. Once we are set up for the shoot  (camera ready etc.) I tend to go brain dead, and what was initially planned is what tends to happen. Much less creativity. If I already know the model, then I know how she thinks, so it is easier to plan stuff. And I will already know if she might flake.
And none of the above is always true.

Yes, I am also amused about models complaining about feeling uncomfortable with strange photographers but refusing a pre-shoot meet to see if they get a creeper vibe. Of course to a 19 yr old anybody over 25 is a creeper. Locally there are 2 photographers that are getting bad reps, but young models keep going to them, because they are close to the same age. No complaints about potential grandads.

Agency models never do coffee meets.
OK, there are some here that may have more info, but.
What about 45,000 'go sees' per year.
What about multiple test shoots before the actual shoot.
What 49 fittings before the shoot.
What about showing up 5 hours before the shoot.
And this is for models who will have NO input into the shoot. Who will simply do as they are told.

I happen to appreciate input from the models. I like the trade of ideas. I want the model to try stuff they have not done before, even if it fails. Kind off why it is a "Trade" shoot. My best images have been when ideas were traded. Sometimes it started in a pre-shoot meeting, and other times during the shoot. 

And I have now lost track of all I was going to say, so I'll stop here.

I noticed a couple of things in your posts in the other threads. 
https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post … st19848903
"Except for me, with travel and setup time, every 2 hour shoot entails 5 hours of my time. I do not wish to have that much of a blind investment, so part of the time I will insist on a 'coffee meet' first."
"Part of the time":  So you do not insist on a meeting come hell or high water or no shoot?
"every 2 hour shoot entails 5 hours of my time": When the pre shoot meeting takes 5 hours of your time and you take zero shots, how would that figure in to your planning regimen?
Are you likely to approach a shoot differently if it one of the well know and constant contest winners as opposed to first time Nancy?

I don't shoot agency models  I may be completely misinformed, but I do read.  If the photographer is hot enough, or the customer is important enough, my understanding is that the agency sends the model regardless of the reputation of the photographer or client.  Is that your understanding?  At least up until the Me too movement.

If the agency model goes to go sees fittings, and has the job, is she being paid $100 an hour for shoot time only, or is her compensation based on the media, the distribution, etc.?  If the agency sends her for test, yes, she is burning her time but the pics aren't going to be used for anything either, as opposed to an MM model being required to sign a full release some of the time?

As for brain dead issues, I have learned to take my notes to the model and the shots I send her, to the shoot, and I keep the notes in my pocket so I can check off the items and remember the details.  There is a lot going on in a shoot.

I would be surprised if any of the contrary comments being made are about you.

Gryph wrote:

I insist on a coffee date with you before any shoots can be arranged...

Because the other times I met you, you were drinking beer... so it doesn't count as a coffee date

Herman Surkis wrote:
I am so glad that my portfolio was able to amuse you. That beats the hell out of it sitting there doing nothing.

Different strokes etc.

Wasn't referring to you.

MoRina wrote:
Because the other times I met you, you were drinking beer... so it doesn't count as a coffee date

Other times...  I thought we only got together once.

Since I don't drink coffee, how about just a date?  Hope Jay doesn't mind.

MoRina wrote:
I find it amusing to go to the portfolios of those people who insist here that they must have a pre-shoot meeting.

Lol.

I got my laugh for the day.

I didn't have a pre-shoot meeting before I worked with you.
We have to have one!   

Gryph wrote:

Other times...  I thought we only got together once.

Since I don't drink coffee, how about just a date?  Hope Jay doesn't mind.

One time was a meet and greet organized by Jebbia.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

I didn't have a pre-shoot meeting before I worked with you.
We have to have one!   

But you're the only photographer who has mailed me cookies.

MoRina wrote:
Because the other times I met you, you were drinking beer... so it doesn't count as a coffee date

Gryph wrote:
Since I don't drink coffee, how about just a date?  Hope Jay doesn't mind.

I bring my own coffee when I travel, just so you know. You won't be on the hook for it when I'm at tu casa next month.

I drink that hipstah fanceh coffee.

Alexandra Vincent wrote:
I bring my own coffee when I travel, just so you know. You won't be on the hook for it when I'm at tu casa next month.

I drink that hipstah fanceh coffee.

But I have a Keurig... True story.

/threadjack

Gryph wrote:

But I have a Keurig... True story.

/threadjack

Keurig cups are overpriced.

Okay...I'm done making irrelevant comments. Lol

Hunter  GWPB wrote:

I noticed a couple of things in your posts in the other threads. 
https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post … st19848903
"Except for me, with travel and setup time, every 2 hour shoot entails 5 hours of my time. I do not wish to have that much of a blind investment, so part of the time I will insist on a 'coffee meet' first."
"Part of the time":  So you do not insist on a meeting come hell or high water or no shoot?
"every 2 hour shoot entails 5 hours of my time": When the pre shoot meeting takes 5 hours of your time and you take zero shots, how would that figure in to your planning regimen?
Are you likely to approach a shoot differently if it one of the well know and constant contest winners as opposed to first time Nancy?

I don't shoot agency models  I may be completely misinformed, but I do read.  If the photographer is hot enough, or the customer is important enough, my understanding is that the agency sends the model regardless of the reputation of the photographer or client.  Is that your understanding?  At least up until the Me too movement.

If the agency model goes to go sees fittings, and has the job, is she being paid $100 an hour for shoot time only, or is her compensation based on the media, the distribution, etc.?  If the agency sends her for test, yes, she is burning her time but the pics aren't going to be used for anything either, as opposed to an MM model being required to sign a full release some of the time?

As for brain dead issues, I have learned to take my notes to the model and the shots I send her, to the shoot, and I keep the notes in my pocket so I can check off the items and remember the details.  There is a lot going on in a shoot.

I would be surprised if any of the contrary comments being made are about you.

Actually very good questions, and i think you have answered some already.

Let's see what I can do without boring everybody.

As far as the time for the coffee. We are usually no more than 30min away from wherever we are going to. I will usually try to meet them where is is convenient after their work. If the meet lasts longer than 30min. it is because the creative juices are flowing. And to be honest it was more of a must happen before all the images could be found on the internet. So my time invested is around 1hr. But I can guarantee, that if the shoot happens it was very well worth the hour.

You seem to be wondering about my 5 hour thing. Fair enough. I takes me 30min to get to the studio, 45 if I decide to bus. So double that. I am usually there at least 2 hours early to setup. Take down is about an hour. I try to avoid rushing, because that is when I start forgetting stuff or screwing up. So that is my 5 hours for a 1hr or 6 hour shoot. OK more like 4 hrs over and above the shoot time. Hey my arithmetic has not gotten better with age.

And I know Mo was not talking about me, but I could not help myself.

And absolutely correct. My pre-shoot meet is usually for an unknown to me. I have asked others about models, and if everything is good, then we are good to go without a meet. However some models actually appreciate a meet to discuss things. Believe it or not, some are strange enough that they like having input face to face and not by a bunch of texts. Strange I know! That is what will be happening next week with a model whose work I have followed for awhile. She wants different, and likes the idea of discussing concepts in person.

"I don't shoot agency models  I may be completely misinformed, but I do read.  If the photographer is hot enough, or the customer is important enough, my understanding is that the agency sends the model regardless of the reputation of the photographer or client.  Is that your understanding?  At least up until the Me too movement."

Others are in a better place to comment currently.
But sadly yes. This was true in my personal experience in the days of Kodachrome 25, in Toronto. I knew of a couple of sleeze photographers who got a lot of work and did a lot of testing. When you are young and hungry it is amazing what you will put up with. The friend and I had reputations as being "goody 2 shoes". It is sad when you are asked why we did not take advantage.

Some of your other questions are better answered by those who are currently working professionals. My days in the game are long past. This is a hobby for me now, thank god.

MoRina wrote:

Wasn't referring to you.

I know you weren't, but I could not resist.

And I do hope it amuses you, but not in the way of your original comment. 

MoRina wrote:

But you're the only photographer who has mailed me cookies.

LOL.

Alexandra Vincent wrote:
I bring my own coffee when I travel, just so you know...

But do you still bring your own juicer? That's the important question.

Taylor Kate f wrote:
Side note: The last time I agreed to one, I arrived to meet the photographer (a male much older than me). He proceeded to tell me he actually wanted me to do a NUDE YOGA shoot. He also said he wanted to take me shopping to buy lingerie for the shoot, despite it being a nude shoot??? Needless to say, I never worked with him and my time was wasted. Though, the free Starbucks was nice XD

Can anyone else relate to this?

Look at the positives of your "Side note" that at least you avoided a more uncomfortable situation if you had gone to the studio of the photographer only to find out that you are not comfortable with his requests. Oh, and you got a free coffee!  It certainly was not a total loss of your time.

PhotographybyT wrote:
Since I've been on this site, I can only remember going to 3 pre-shoot meetings with models (all at their requests).

I sort of have similar but opposite feelings about it compared to you. I feel that younger impressionable female models just want to meet up for coffee, lunch, or dinner (on the photographer) and disguise that as a "meeting" to see if "we're a good fit" so they can take advantage of charismatic, esteemed, distinguished gentlemen.

... I'm just kidding! LOL

In all seriousness though, the 3 meetings that I took were local to me so it didn't really take much time or effort. I didn't mind since it helped those models feel more comfortable to meet first as it was their very first real photoshoot. That said, I'm also in the camp that feels that pre-shoot meetings are usually unnecessary.

You  and I are in close proximity to each other and  you may even know the model I had the most perfect "preshoot" meeting as it were.  Years ago, Ms. Maifa (Gina) and I connected here on Modelmayhem.  I called her to confirm the date that we would meet at a Starbucks before we'd go shoot.  It was a short, but funny conversation where I joked with her that she was going to bring her big mean husband as an escort or she was going to flake on me.  She did not bring anyone, and she did not flake!  But I got her to laugh because we'd both read the many threads on "escorts"  and "models who flake!"

As it were, she drove herself to where we'd meet.  We met at the Starbucks ready to shoot ... we looked each other over, and there was no need to even go in, instead we went stright to the location which was close by and did the photo shoot.  The thing is that meeting in advance at the Starbucks allows for the perfect "out" if either person is not comfortable with each other.  So if the model or myself were not completely comfortable with taking off from there and doing the shoot we'd have a way out.  It can also lead to a genuiine friendship.  Ms Maifa (Gina) and I have shot after that day, and she even picked me up in her car and drive us to the location.  It's not always this way, but I like being friends with other photographers and models I work with.

Patrick Walberg wrote:

You  and I are in close proximity to each other and  you may even know the model I had the most perfect "preshoot" meeting as it were....

I did work with Gina a while back... wow, that was a long time ago.

Alexandra Vincent wrote:

I bring my own coffee when I travel, just so you know. You won't be on the hook for it when I'm at tu casa next month.

I drink that hipstah fanceh coffee.

I really don't taste much difference in fancy coffee and regular coffee. I used to drink fancy coffee then one day I ran out and realized regular coffee is just about the same.