Damianne wrote:
And honestly, who wants to be with someone that wants to leave you, but just feels like they shouldn't?

You'll lie there.

You'll have my babies.

And you'll like it.

Even if you don't like it.

Anna Adrielle wrote:
on the other hand, I also believe people give up too quickly, and step away from commitment easily. And I also think that you should give leaving a second thought depending on how "serious" your commitment to that person is (if you have kids together, for instance)

Like, what?
This is what I am curious about and want answers to.

If someone wants to give up quickly, doesn't that indicate they're not interested enough in the relationship to make it work regardless?
And what is too quickly? Based on what? Based on whom?
As a child of divorced parents who really should have never been together in the first place (I never had those fantasies of my parents getting back together), my childhood was fine and I really think it's more harmful to the children to teach them weird lessons about relationships by staying together even if you want to leave one another, just for the children.

What if you're married, and that's your seriousness? Why does deciding to want to leave that need to be more of a decision than when you're with someone that you're fully committed to emotionally but haven't gotten married to?

Two Pears Studio wrote:
Why is it that people choose to worry about the failings of others... because only you have the power to make yourself feel bad about anything.

So if they don't like it that your relationship is over... that is their suffering. Not yours. (Unless you let it)

Well I mean, empathy and caring about them at all means it probably sucks for you too. You're just causing much less pain by ending the relationship then you would if you let it drag on out of obligation and fear of causing pain, get resentful, and start just doing weird things and having weird fights to get rid of the tension you feel in staying there, then eventually ending the relationship after you hate each other.

It's less pain caused to end it once you know.

Damianne wrote:
And honestly, who wants to be with someone that wants to leave you, but just feels like they shouldn't?

This sounds like someone who is more or less waiting to be told what to do or where to go. Maybe to avoid being the fall guy/girl...?

Two Pears Studio wrote:
Why is it that people choose to worry about the failings of others... because only you have the power to make yourself feel bad about anything.

So if they don't like it that your relationship is over... that is their suffering. Not yours. (Unless you let it)

Sounds like a friend of my wife. She was in a rotten, and very physically as well as psychologically damaging, situation from day one. Now he's gone she's miserable.

I describe her as someone that is not capable of being happy unless they're miserable.

Studio36

modeled wrote:
Commitment is the most powerful thing a human can do.

+ a Million

Damianne wrote:
And honestly, who wants to be with someone that wants to leave you, but just feels like they shouldn't?

If they promised each other to be together until death then it kind of is a failure to keep the promise.

modeled wrote:
Commitment is the most powerful thing a human can do.

Jules NYC wrote:
+ a Million

+ another million (25+ year relationship).

Digital Photo PLUS wrote:

If they promised each other to be together until death then it kind of is a failure to keep the promise.

Well that's a stupid promise to begin with. You don't know what you'll want forever, and again, who wants someone to stay with them because they made a promise to but they're unhappy?

orias wrote:
i also think that every happy successfull relationship has had a moment where one of the partners wanted to leave but felt they shouldn't.  maybe this has hurt one member to spare the other, hurt both,  or gave them an opportunity for more time to work through a rough patch and go further than they could have if one bailed.

there are many moments when people think of leaving their careers but try to stick through a rough patch even if they want to flee. 

Its not necessarily a bad thing to be guilted to stay whee you are if its a temporary thing and theres a valid reason for it

i've known couples where one memberloses a family member and the other can't take that much stress and pressure and wants to leave but sticks around to not cause that person undue pain at that moment. 

for the  most part sticking around a little more than you want at that exact moment is not a a bad thing and sometimes can be a selfless act that can really help someone else while not hurting you much. 

if we all just selfishly bailed from anything the moment we wanted to,  very few of us would be successful at anything

obviously lingering on and on for a long time to avoid telling someone the truth about your lack of feelings is crappy because you are misleading them by not wanting to be honest. 

So there's clearly a line between being 100% in the moment and acting on every fleeting feeling of distance and then being too calculating and avoidant of a conversation that needs to happen for everyones long term benefit.

Well I have moments where I'm unhappy in my relationship in the RIGHT NOW and I always ask myself "does this overwhelm all the good, do I want to leave" and the answer has always, for 3 years and through some shit, been "no". It's a balanced question, it's not just "I stubbed my toe so I'm leaving you", but if the answer to the question "in the big picture, do I want to leave" is "yes", how is leaving selfish?
Seems like it's better for everyone to leave.


That's the idea I'm really asking about. "Selfishly bailed". Why is leaving a relationship selfish?

Digital Photo PLUS wrote:
If they promised each other to be together until death then it kind of is a failure to keep the promise.

Damianne wrote:
Well that's a stupid promise to begin with. You don't know what you'll want forever, and again, who wants someone to stay with them because they made a promise to but they're unhappy?

Is unhappiness a permanent condition? Sheesh. Properly motivated, people can get over themselves and resolve their unhappiness, either within a relationship or without.

kickfight wrote:

Is unhappiness a permanent condition? Sheesh. Properly motivated, people can get over themselves and resolve their unhappiness, either within a relationship or without.

Sure, but if you're unhappy with the person you're with, that's usually pretty permanent. You can be happy with life in general, sure, but you would definitely be much happier and fulfilled with someone you wanted to be with.

I'm not saying that just because you're having a fight with your SO you should leave and fuck all this, I'm talking about actual unhappiness with the relationship you're in.

Properly motivated is the issue. You're not going to really be motivated to fix the relationship if you don't really want to be in it. In fact, lack of motivation is the key indicator that you're over being with that person.

kickfight wrote:

modeled wrote:
Commitment is the most powerful thing a human can do.

+ another million (25+ year relationship).

Damianne wrote:
When did leaving someone become a moral failing?

the moment you decided it was so ...

Damianne wrote:

Well that's a stupid promise to begin with. You don't know what you'll want forever, and again, who wants someone to stay with them because they made a promise to but they're unhappy?

But promises are made for the future, that's kind of the point of the promise that you vow to stay together no matter what. I agree, promises like that are pointless, expectation of monogamy is unrealistic and unnecessary.

I guess one person can release the other from the promise. If two adults make a deal they can unmake it.

There are many valid reasons to unilaterally end a relationship: let's say a person becomes a total bitch, gains weight, or starts getting older.

kickfight wrote:
Is unhappiness a permanent condition? Sheesh. Properly motivated, people can get over themselves and resolve their unhappiness, either within a relationship or without.

Damianne wrote:
Sure, but if you're unhappy with the person you're with, that's usually pretty permanent.

Eh, no. People go through rough patches, both alone or in relationships. Those rough patches are Unhappiness Central.

Damianne wrote:
You can be happy with life in general, sure, but you would definitely be much happier and fulfilled with someone you wanted to be with.

Maybe, maybe not... some people turn out to be unhappy in relationships, period. They're not cut out for relationships. But they're bummed because they are conditioned to view relationships as a metric for success, and if you're not in one, well, there's "something wrong with you", etc. 

Damianne wrote:
I'm not saying that just because you're having a fight with your SO you should leave and fuck all this, I'm talking about actual unhappiness with the relationship you're in.

Sure, but everyone has a different criteria for unhappiness.

The point is that unhappiness = bailing is too facile of a proposition.

Damianne wrote:
Properly motivated is the issue. You're not going to really be motivated to fix the relationship if you don't really want to be in it. In fact, lack of motivation is the key indicator that you're over being with that person.

Well, again, people have a tendency to get stalled in their unhappiness. It becomes a downward spiral. They're unhappy, so they are not motivated to fix anything because they're disappointed that their relationship is not succeeding, so the relationship keeps failing. People grow distant. Resentments harden. The relationship is potentially fixable. But it's the recursive unhappiness and disappointment that prevents people from being motivated to do anything about it.

Damianne wrote:

Sure, but if you're unhappy with the person you're with, that's usually pretty permanent. You can be happy with life in general, sure, but you would definitely be much happier and fulfilled with someone you wanted to be with.

I'm not saying that just because you're having a fight with your SO you should leave and fuck all this, I'm talking about actual unhappiness with the relationship you're in.

Properly motivated is the issue. You're not going to really be motivated to fix the relationship if you don't really want to be in it. In fact, lack of motivation is the key indicator that you're over being with that person.

It's going to be the same shit just with a different person.

Digital Photo PLUS wrote:

But promises are made for the future, that's kind of the point of the promise that you vow to stay together no matter what. I agree, promises like that are pointless, expectation of monogamy is unrealistic and unnecessary.

I guess one person can release the other from the promise. If two adults make a deal they can unmake it.

There are many valid reasons to unilaterally end a relationship: let's say a person becomes a total bitch, gains weight, or starts getting older.

Expectation of monogamy is pointless, agreeing to monogamy can be a good thing if that's what everyone wants. But the other person isn't doing it for you, they're doing it because that's what they want.

The other person doesn't have any say in whether someone wants to end a relationship. The whole point is that both people are committed because they want to be, not for the other person. It's selfish.

Digital Photo PLUS wrote:

It's going to be the same shit just with a different person.

What?
You can make a relationship work with someone and not another person.
That is a possibility.
Just because you can't make it work with a person doesn't mean you're incapable.


Maybe that's the crux, there's a fear that if you can't make the longhaul with THIS PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL, you're incapable of having any relationships.

DivaEroticus wrote:
I was married to my first husband for 13 years.  We had our difficult times, but managed.  Then he became a born again christian.  Then he became a deacon in our church.  Six months after that, I left him.  The reasons are personal, but because I left, he lost his deaconship, his standing, his...whatever....  I was, of course, the pariah for leaving.  The whole church, just about, treated me as an outcast.

There are plenty of people who think that ending a marriage is a moral failure.  And despite the nature of the ending of my second marriage, I am not one of those people.  :shrug:

Fuck 'em.  And fuck moral self-righteousness.

That's another thing, where does THAT idea come from and how does it persist?
Ending a relationship somehow makes your character as a whole person come into question.

Anna Adrielle wrote:
I don't know...

on one hand, I think it's not okay to stay with someone you hate being with, just for the sake of it. that ultimately makes no one happy.

on the other hand, I also believe people give up too quickly, and step away from commitment easily. And I also think that you should give leaving a second thought depending on how "serious" your commitment to that person is (if you have kids together, for instance)

It's a double-edged sword.
In past times religious and societal pressure forced couples to stay together literally forever. Divorce was uncommon and resulted in social suicide, or was legally impossible altogether - it is for instance still impossible to get divorced in Malta, a member state of the EU. So just because divorce rates were lower that doesn't allow for the conclusion that all of those marriages were happier.

On the other hand, such outside influences also made couples work harder for their marriages. You couldn't go through partners like you go through socks. It has been my observation that people quit quickly these days once they hit a rough patch, yet such difficult times when you don't like your partner very much are a natural part of any long term relationship. It can't always be sunshine and rainbows, but some relationships are worth sticking around and working through these issues. Happiness in a life-long relationship doesn't come cheap.

That "quitter mentality" seems to be especially prevalent among women today, as two thirds of relationships are ended by women. This could mean that men are generally more tolerant of the flaws in their partner than the other way round. In my experience these relationships often fails when we have completely unrealistic expectations of our partners to begin with.  Some of these men just seem to be placeholders until someone "better" comes along.

Damianne wrote:
Should've, right? But so often people are concerned about how it's not right to leave their SO even though they hate being with them.

That doesn't even make any sense.

Why are they staying in the first place? Because they don't want to hurt the other persons feelings?
They are going to hurt them even worse if the other person finds out the only reason they've been with them so long is because they were scared of hurting them if they left.

(I hope that made sense)

Damianne wrote:

That's another thing, where does THAT idea come from and how does it persist?
Ending a relationship somehow makes your character as a whole person come into question.

From christian teachings and the interpretations of those teachings.  For a long time, when I walked into that church, a number of people would turn their backs on me as I approached.  I knew they saw me.  There are about a dozen people there who I truly like, and if I happen to go there to see them, the others still turn their backs...eleven years later.  I was a prime example of how moral turpitude causes a divided family.  I was accused of any number of things following my leaving (my first husband).  There was a lot of trash talking going on by my "christian" ex husband, which seemed to be acceptable, but no one bothered to approach me with concern or out of christian love.  And again I say :shrug:

Damianne wrote:
What?
You can make a relationship work with someone and not another person.
That is a possibility.
Just because you can't make it work with a person doesn't mean you're incapable.


Maybe that's the crux, there's a fear that if you can't make the longhaul with THIS PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL, you're incapable of having any relationships.

Maybe it is the case. For women. Women tend define themselves and their happiness in terms of the relationship, family. For men it's more about social standing, career, etc.

What I meant is that problems in relationships are usually about the same things even though they can be intricate and complex in their details. They are likely to repeat with different partners. Because of the way we men and women are.

Damianne wrote:
That's another thing, where does THAT idea come from and how does it persist?
Ending a relationship somehow makes your character as a whole person come into question.

Human beings are whole creatures. We are not compartmentalized robots. A failure or character weakness in one aspect of a personality DOES indicate a failing in others. That idea persists because it's an undeniable truth.

Lie to your spouse? You'll lie to others.

Treat your kids like crap? You'll treat others like crap.

Break the vows of your relationship? You'll break other vows.

There are legitimate reasons to leave a relationship. When the relationship is abusive or violent or the other person is disloyal or unfaithful, there is no shame in walking away from that. But these days, too many people just seem to get "bored" or say they are "unfulfilled" and they quit. I'm not sure about you, but I've never heard anyone take a vow in front of their friends and family to "love, honor and cherish... until they are tired of doing it".

Digital Photo PLUS wrote:

If they promised each other to be together until death then it kind of is a failure to keep the promise.

Right.  Before God and the state, "I do" means "I do."

Some people are conservative when it comes to family values, others are more liberal.

Damianne wrote:

That's another thing, where does THAT idea come from and how does it persist?
Ending a relationship somehow makes your character as a whole person come into question.

If they are serious about their religion, marriage is a promise made not just to your partner but before God - so you don't just break your promise to your partner, you walk away from God. I'm an atheist so this doesn't concern me, but some people take their faith seriously and marriage is a central part of the Christian faith. They do consider them sacraments for a reason, if you're a Catholic sacraments are even necessary to be allowed entry into heaven.