1472 wrote:
Yeah ask dont just submit although most publications would ask about it

Wrong. She does not hold copyright so she can NOT authorize someone else's images to be used.

The photographer can submit if he/she wants.

Alyssa Sky wrote:
Hey llamas...and or photographers...this is just a simple question. Now, don't be all sarcastic and troll like or get angry with this question, because I just don't know: Is it too forward to ask a photographer to submit their work to magazines/blogs? In my experience, TFP means TFpicturesforyourfacebookpage. However, I would prefer the P. Which stands for PRINT. Would a photographer get offended if you asked them to submit their photos to magazines? How about if you submitted their work for them? Thanks guys, appreciate the responses!

If you want to see yourself published in print, then work with photographers that already submit and actually get printed already. That will NOT be easy! It is so very hard to get printed. The magazines are getting bombarded with stuff daily. The guys getting printed are getting bombarded by llamas, MUAs etc looking to collaborate.

BTW, the "P" in TFP may stand for "print", yes. But it means a print of the photo. NOT a guarantee of an editorial print.

Blogs are a little more realistic. But again, work with guys that already are on that path.

Alyssa Sky wrote:
Hey models...and or photographers...this is just a simple question. Now, don't be all sarcastic and troll like or get angry with this question, because I just don't know: Is it too forward to ask a photographer to submit their work to magazines/blogs? In my experience, TFP means TFpicturesforyourfacebookpage. However, I would prefer the P. Which stands for PRINT. Would a photographer get offended if you asked them to submit their photos to magazines? How about if you submitted their work for them? Thanks guys, appreciate the responses!

I had a model do this recently. She wanted to submit images from our shoot and asked if it would be OK. I was fine with it and provided files of the resolution they needed. The magazine properly required that I sign an agreement for publication as the copyright holder. If the photographer says no then you can not go around them.

-The Dave- wrote:

Wrong. She does not hold copyright so she can NOT authorize someone else's images to be used.

Thats what they said..


You can submit yourself, just get permission from the photographer. I have a model that submits our work all the time. As 1472 said most publications will ask for a release.

Alyssa Sky wrote:
Hey models...and or photographers...this is just a simple question. Now, don't be all sarcastic and troll like or get angry with this question, because I just don't know: Is it too forward to ask a photographer to submit their work to magazines/blogs? In my experience, TFP means TFpicturesforyourfacebookpage. However, I would prefer the P. Which stands for PRINT. Would a photographer get offended if you asked them to submit their photos to magazines? How about if you submitted their work for them? Thanks guys, appreciate the responses!

You are not authorized to submit work on behalf of a photographer unless he has given you written authorization to do so.

Your interpretation of 'tf P' (meaning PRINT) is a bit misguided. TFP was the phrase used before the advent of digital imagery and meant that the trade session resulted in the photographer giving you actual prints of the pics instead of digital files. It has nothing to do with submitting images to publications.

Also (and I'm not being sarcastic, just pragmatic), I would be more concerned that you want to do a session without paying a photographer (other than paying with your talent, which is fine, and what the photographer is doing as well) and then expect him or her to take their energies, time, etc., and work for you. Come off as this to me: "Well, let's shoot some pics - I don't want to pay you for the session, and if I like what we get, then you can do all the marketing work for me and I'll get noticed..."

You have to realize that there are some photographers (like myself) who have zero interest in commercial work. A model asking me to submit on her behalf would result in me having to work for nothing and I have a feeling if I told her I would do it for X-dollars, I would never hear from her again and she would start telling other models that I was trying to rip her off.

Of course, if the photographer gives you permission to submit work yourself, that's fine - then the burden of work is on you. But the photographer then has the job of keeping track of his copyright (which is different than a usage agreement) and you have gotten salable images without shelling out a dime. That may be good business for you, but photographers aren't going to do tf* with someone on that basis for very long.

IMHO

ChiMo wrote:

If you want to see yourself published in print, then work with photographers that already submit and actually get printed already. That will NOT be easy! It is so very hard to get printed. The magazines are getting bombarded with stuff daily. The guys getting printed are getting bombarded by models, MUAs etc looking to collaborate.

BTW, the "P" in TFP may stand for "print", yes. But it means a print of the photo. NOT a guarantee of an editorial print.

Blogs are a little more realistic. But again, work with guys that already are on that path.

QFT

Alyssa Sky wrote:
Hey models...and or photographers...this is just a simple question. Now, don't be all sarcastic and troll like or get angry with this question, because I just don't know: Is it too forward to ask a photographer to submit their work to magazines/blogs? In my experience, TFP means TFpicturesforyourfacebookpage. However, I would prefer the P. Which stands for PRINT. Would a photographer get offended if you asked them to submit their photos to magazines? How about if you submitted their work for them? Thanks guys, appreciate the responses!

You bring up a whole  pile of things that are just not done..  The working agreement between the two of you should be the  guideline.  IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU SURE NEED AN AGREEMENT..

Alyssa Sky wrote:
... Is it too forward to ask a photographer to submit their work to magazines/blogs?

I think people are misreading this. It doesn't sound to me as if she's wanting to submit photos herself, but have the photographer submit photos to get a tear.

Just speaking for myself - Most of the TF shoots I do, are not going to produce images that any magazine is likely to select and publish by random submission.

If you want a tear, I think your chances are better by finding a photographer who is shooting specifically with the goal of producing images for publication.

Alyssa Sky wrote:
Hey models...and or photographers...this is just a simple question. Now, don't be all sarcastic and troll like or get angry with this question, because I just don't know: Is it too forward to ask a photographer to submit their work to magazines/blogs? In my experience, TFP means TFpicturesforyourfacebookpage. However, I would prefer the P. Which stands for PRINT. Would a photographer get offended if you asked them to submit their photos to magazines? How about if you submitted their work for them? Thanks guys, appreciate the responses!

Alyssa,

First, "TFP" the "P" for "print" typically meant "prints" rather than a CD with images (or downloads).  Not tearsheets or actually published work.

Second, as others have mentioned, TF is what you make of it.  I've had some models where they wanted a piece of clothing I had or they'd shoot but they wanted poses at the waterfall my avatar is at.  Or they said they'd shoot but they wanted to include a specific concept.  Or I had to bring "power berries" as a snack and she got to keep what was left (go to Trader Joe's and you'll know what I mean). 

Third, if you saw edits and really loved what you say, I don't think a photographer would be offended if you said "Wow, Ed, these are just freaking amazing--I love these shots.  I know an outlet that would jump at the chance to print these.  Are you interested?  I can connect you to the arts director for the magazine."  But ultimately, unless you have a usage agreement that says otherwise, the photographer (at least here in the States) owns the publication rights (assuming you signed a model release).

Now, if you contacted me and said "Ed, I'd really like to get some of our shots in print.  Please start contacting magazines and print outlets to see who would use them" then yeah, I'd be annoyed.  Unless I have existing contacts interested in that work or some art directors that owe me, it's going to involve some work on my part.

Ed

-The Dave- wrote:
Wrong. She does not hold copyright so she can NOT authorize someone else's images to be used.

The photographer can submit if he/she wants.

^ this.
I've had to sign 2 copyright related documents this week with magazines in regards to my work being published.

Alyssa,
If you have posed for images you'd like to have in Magazines, You can submit them for the photographer (copyright holder), just ask the photographer before to clarify they will sign the release paperwork if the images are accepted.
In some cases this means handing over copyright entirely to the publication.

Abbitt Photography wrote:
I think people are misreading this. It doesn't sound to me as if she's wanting to submit photos herself, but have the photographer submit photos to get a tear.

Uh, read her entire post...

"Hey models...and or photographers...this is just a simple question. Now, don't be all sarcastic and troll like or get angry with this question, because I just don't know: Is it too forward to ask a photographer to submit their work to magazines/blogs? In my experience, TFP means TFpicturesforyourfacebookpage. However, I would prefer the P. Which stands for PRINT. Would a photographer get offended if you asked them to submit their photos to magazines? How about if you (meaning 'her') submitted their work for them? Thanks guys, appreciate the responses!"

Alyssa Sky wrote:
Hey models...and or photographers...this is just a simple question. Now, don't be all sarcastic and troll like or get angry with this question, because I just don't know: Is it too forward to ask a photographer to submit their work to magazines/blogs? In my experience, TFP means TFpicturesforyourfacebookpage. However, I would prefer the P. Which stands for PRINT. Would a photographer get offended if you asked them to submit their photos to magazines? How about if you submitted their work for them? Thanks guys, appreciate the responses!

in your experience, TFP means TFpicturesforyourfacebookpage?
i certainly would love to know where you got your experience from, because i have never heard of that explanation of TFP before. i guess you learn something new on MM every day.

when did Facebook have anything to do with TF shoots?

Alyssa Sky wrote:
Hey models...and or photographers...this is just a simple question. Now, don't be all sarcastic and troll like or get angry with this question, because I just don't know: Is it too forward to ask a photographer to submit their work to magazines/blogs? In my experience, TFP means TFpicturesforyourfacebookpage. However, I would prefer the P. Which stands for PRINT. Would a photographer get offended if you asked them to submit their photos to magazines? How about if you submitted their work for them? Thanks guys, appreciate the responses!

In my opinion, there is absolutely no up-side to submitting photos to magazines:

...  They never pay.  I hate that the magazine profits but I don't.  Makes me
     feel exploited.
...  The so-called "exposure" is worthless.
...  I try to network locally, where it matters most.
...  The magazine crops images and often reproduces images poorly.
...  It hurts when the photographs are rejected.
...  The print media is dying.
...  My aesthetics rarely align with the magazine's.
...  etc.

So, no -- I am not interested in submitting to magazines.

Alyssa Sky wrote:
Hey models...and or photographers...this is just a simple question. Now, don't be all sarcastic and troll like or get angry with this question, because I just don't know: Is it too forward to ask a photographer to submit their work to magazines/blogs? In my experience, TFP means TFpicturesforyourfacebookpage. However, I would prefer the P. Which stands for PRINT. Would a photographer get offended if you asked them to submit their photos to magazines? How about if you submitted their work for them? Thanks guys, appreciate the responses!

The "P" for Print means a hard copy print of an image. Not "IN print" as in published. Otherwise it would be Trade for Publication.

Are you asking if it would be okay to ask a photographer to submit the images that he/she took of you to a publication? Of course it's ok to ask, but I'm not really getting what the endgame is here other than you'd like to have images of yourself published.

If the photographer thinks the work is publication-worthy they submit the images on spec, but that's no guarantee of being published. Far from it. And if the photographer is shooting with the backing of a publication you'd know going in and it probably wouldn't be done on a TF* basis.

But, no, never submit somebody else's work to a publication. The images may be OF you but they are the property of the person who created them.

Jersey Shore wrote:

in your experience, TFP means TFpicturesforyourfacebookpage?
i certainly would love to know where you got your experience from, because i have never heard of that explanation of TFP before. i guess you learn something new on MM every day.

when did Facebook have anything to do with TF shoots?

I think what she meant is that the end usage of most images done on a TF* basis are nothing more than Facebook fodder.

What are most models doing with the images they get? They're uploading them somewhere and that's the extent of the image usage.

She was saying she'd like the images to actually be used for something productive that means something, not just being the next avatar on Facebook. I understand what she's saying it's just not as easy as, "Hey, I want this shot published."

ChiMo wrote:
BTW, the "P" in TFP may stand for "print", yes. But it means a print of the photo. NOT a guarantee of an editorial print.

How true. A photographer can't guarantee publication. Only an editor or publisher can do that. Most won't, because they like to keep their options open until the issue goes to press. And those who do guarantee reserve the right to change their minds - whether they say so or not.

Even Alfred Eisenstaedt, who was a staffer at LIFE magazine during its prime and was arguably the best magazine photojournalist of all time, couldn't guarantee publication. It's in one of his books.

There was a forum thread about a year ago that was started by a photographer who did guarantee publication. An editor had looked at the model's portfolio and said he'd publish a set of photos of her before they were shot. But he didn't. Probably partly because the photographer used the photos in his portfolio before submmitting them to the magazine (and partly because the photos weren't very good).

Most magazines won't use anything that has been published before - and that goes for photos used in a public portfolio. (Many will allow placing the photos on the net with controlled access, like a password-protected folder on MM.)

Since most magazines work six months ahead (many are working on August issues now), most photos intended for publication will be in limbo for portfolio use for six months - or longer.

Alyssa Sky wrote:
Hey llamas...and or photographers...this is just a simple question. Now, don't be all sarcastic and troll like or get angry with this question, because I just don't know: Is it too forward to ask a photographer to submit their work to magazines/blogs? In my experience, TFP means TFpicturesforyourfacebookpage. However, I would prefer the P. Which stands for PRINT. Would a photographer get offended if you asked them to submit their photos to magazines? How about if you submitted their work for them? Thanks guys, appreciate the responses!

TFP used to mean trade for PRINTS, not PRINT. It was back before digital. It doesn't mean trade to have photos published.

Camerosity wrote:
How true. A photographer can't guarantee publication. Only an editor or publisher can do that. Most won't, because they like to keep their options open until the issue goes to press. And those who do guarantee reserve the right to change their minds - whether they say so or not.

Even Alfred Eisenstaedt, who was a staffer at LIFE magazine during its prime and was arguably the best magazine photojournalist of all time, couldn't guarantee publication. It's in one of his books.

There was a forum thread about a year ago that was started by a photographer who did guarantee publication. An editor had looked at the model's portfolio and said he'd publish a set of photos of her before they were shot. But he didn't. Probably partly because the photographer used the photos in his portfolio before submmitting them to the magazine (and partly because the photos weren't very good).

Most magazines won't use anything that has been published before - and that goes for photos used in a public portfolio. (Many will allow placing the photos on the net with controlled access, like a password-protected folder on MM.)

Since most magazines work six months ahead (many are working on August issues now), most photos intended for publication will be in limbo for portfolio use for six months - or longer.

There's a lot of info in here worth seeing again.

Magazines like to feel like they're ahead of the curve (even when they aren't) so that means they want exclusive content. Or, at the very least, be the first to put certain content out. If it's out of MM and Facebook and Instagram and Tumblr… a magazine isn't going to want that content.

Jay Bowman wrote:
There's a lot of info in here worth seeing again.

Magazines like to feel like they're ahead of the curve (even when they aren't) so that means they want exclusive content. Or, at the very least, be the first to put certain content out. If it's out of MM and Facebook and Instagram and Tumblr… a magazine isn't going to want that content.

Or, as a magazine editor explained it several years ago, he dislikes receiving phone calls, emails, letters and postcards from readers asking why they're paying to see photos they've already seen somewhere else.

And he dislikes it even more if the note is scribbled on a renewal statement that's returned without a check or a credit card number.

-The Dave- wrote:
TFWhatever is whatever you agree on it to be.

Exactly. It's Trade For what ever you agree to trade. If you want it to be prints then trade for print and get it in writing. I don't care if it's TF, fun, test whatever if you expect to receive something more than attending the shoot, get it in writing.

Aaron Lewis Photography wrote:
Ya know, I think there should be a single resource here on MM, written by a lawyer from each state in the union to cover this topic.

The whole copyright issue is always being brought up, everyone has read something different and interpreted differently. Does anyone REALLY know what the law actually is?

In the US copyright is a federal issue, period. The states have no jurisdiction in copyright issues. It’s usage of the photos that varies from state to state.

The US Copyright Office has several tutorials regarding copyright on its web site.

http://copyright.gov/

ASMP (the American Society of Media Photographers, formerly the American Society of Magazine Photographers) has several tutorials on copyright including this one. The table of contents for copyright is to the right of the page.

http://asmp.org/content/registration-counts

While it has been updated from time to time, ASMP’s standard model release form for adults (and another one for minors) has been an industry standard for publication since the 1950’s. They have tutorials on model releases as well – but I’m sure it’s impossible to cover every single hypothetical situation.

http://asmp.org/tutorials/adults-model-release.html

Some states have “right of publicity” laws that deal with model releases and other related issues. In other states (as well as these) applicable laws may be scattered throughout the statute book.

http://rightofpublicity.com/

As mentioned above, Carolyn Wright, who specializes in legal issues that affect photographers, has a book on the subject (although it’s a few years old and doesn’t cover changes in the law that have occurred since it was published), and her web site also has some tutorials.

http://www.photoattorney.com/

Some intellectual property lawyers and law firms have blogs on copyright, usage and other related issues.

If you’re in the US, and you can’t find the answer to your question from these sources, you need to talk to an intellectual property attorney. In many other cases that wouldn’t be a bad idea anyway.

Alyssa Sky wrote:
Is it too forward to ask a photographer to submit their work to magazines/blogs? In my experience, TFP means TFpicturesforyourfacebookpage. However, I would prefer the P. Which stands for PRINT. Would a photographer get offended if you asked them to submit their photos to magazines?

Not too forward at all. Never hurts to ask.

Alyssa Sky wrote:
How about if you submitted their work for them?

I wouldn't mind this, but we'd need to agree first. Randomly submitting without telling me is bad form

Aaron Lewis Photography wrote:
No wonder we have lawyers. Whenever I have an issue I just ask the PPA for help.

And you could easily spend more than your PPofA dues getting a question answered by a lawyer.

Camerosity wrote:
And you could easily spend more than your PPofA dues getting a question answered by a lawyer.

Absolutely. Now I will say I've never actually had to take legal action other than a few letters from me and PPA stating our intent. But I will say they were there to back me up.  I know a lot of people don't see the value in organizations like PPA and I'm sure I don't use half the benefits available but it's worth every penny when you need someone.

Alyssa Sky wrote:
Hey models...and or photographers...this is just a simple question. Now, don't be all sarcastic and troll like or get angry with this question, because I just don't know: Is it too forward to ask a photographer to submit their work to magazines/blogs? In my experience, TFP means TFpicturesforyourfacebookpage. However, I would prefer the P. Which stands for PRINT. Would a photographer get offended if you asked them to submit their photos to magazines? How about if you submitted their work for them? Thanks guys, appreciate the responses!

I have had so many models ask me to shoot them and then get them in LA Weekly or pasadena magazine. It is one of my pet peeves. Don't do it.

from my profile

How to get a tear sheet from a shoot with Star

In the last three years I have shot over 30 covers for publications, and about 90 editorial stories. ALL of those have been commissioned work, and all of them have had specific criteria attached.

The way this works is on Tuesday I get a call from so and so from such and such publication. They outline the story and 75% of the time already know who I am shooting for the story, because the story is about that person. The other 20% of the time I am given a prospective- that is where the art director wants something very specific (a brunette business couple to pose with Mosh, or a blonde with tattoos on her hands etc...) and I either approach a model I know and have worked with in the past, or I call an agency and then submit the models to the AD for them to approve the one(s) they want to book.

5% of the time it is a real time crunch and I post up a casting call.

All in all, from initial phone call to booking the models it is usually between 2-24 hours.

This means that i can not be "hired" to shoot a model, or book a make-up artist, for a cover shoot because that is just not how it works. Please do not contact me about trying to get on the cover of the LA Weekly or any other publication I have worked for in the past, it just doesn't work that way.

thankyou

Alyssa Sky wrote:
Hey models...and or photographers...this is just a simple question. Now, don't be all sarcastic and troll like or get angry with this question, because I just don't know: Is it too forward to ask a photographer to submit their work to magazines/blogs? In my experience, TFP means TFpicturesforyourfacebookpage. However, I would prefer the P. Which stands for PRINT. Would a photographer get offended if you asked them to submit their photos to magazines? How about if you submitted their work for them? Thanks guys, appreciate the responses!

I would ask the photographer if they minded. They may have to submit it for you depending on the website/mag terms. I know I wouldn't mind, but would prefer to submit them for you.