Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:

The point of trade shoots is to benefit both parties. There are other reasons as to why an experienced model isn't going to respond to a trade offer from someone with an outdated portfolio, but the main reason is that it isn't practical. If I have no idea what his current work looks like (if he has any), why would I even consider trading with him?

At this point, if he wants to build his portfolio he needs to hire models. After he does that, if his work is good enough, he could probably start asking models to trade.

Or he could just find a model with an outdated port, lol  Even if his stuff is older, it doesn't mean it's bad work, no?

Bill Tracy Photography wrote:
I always send messages with detailed descriptions of the shoot, or a link to the casting call that has the shoot details well laid out.  If the model I sent the message to reads the message but doesn't display the common courtesy to reply, I just write them off as someone never to contact again.  Obviously they're either going to be an unreliable flake or just not interested in the type of work I normally pay for, and again, do not have the common courtesy to send a reply saying so.  Either way, I now do not want to work with them either.

....I send messages like this ''work with me NOW'' works every time lol

Digital Czar wrote:

It's sure great to be evaluated by a weekend-hobby model. Tell me, are your photos great? If they indeed are, why are you only shooting weekends and not full-time when you are trying to give the appearance of having a great grip on the business of being a model and what it takes to be a photographer?

I am realistic. I am too old to model for a living. I also enjoy being able to pick and choose the shoots based on how much I think I will enjoy the shoot, not based on how badly I need to pay my bills.

But this thread isn't about me: remember when you messaged me, I REPLIED.

Bill Tracy Photography wrote:

Or he could just find a model with an outdated port, lol  Even if his stuff is older, it doesn't mean it's bad work, no?

Models rarely make a come back after 10-20 years out of the biz. It isn't practical. So the chances of him finding a model with a portfolio as outdated as his are slim to none.

No one said the work in his portfolio was bad. We just have no way of knowing whether or not his current work is any good.

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
No one said the work in his portfolio was bad. We just have no way of knowing whether or not his current work is any good.

I would think the work has improved if anything.  Usually people get better at things with years of practice.  Plus I think he's already updated now.  I also think some photographers feel the slots provided on here are just to showcase what you can do, old examples or not.

20 years away for a model would be devastating as they're too old by then, I would think.  I was thinking more of just an outdated port by a year or less.

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Models rarely make a come back after 10-20 years out of the biz. It isn't practical. So the chances of him finding a model with a portfolio as outdated as his are slim to none.

No one said the work in his portfolio was bad. We just have no way of knowing whether or not his current work is any good.

I also have no idea if the model can pull off the photo concept I might want to do based on the photos in her port that aren't what I want to do or even close.
Not much difference there.

However, lets look at this in another way. My photos are mostly from paid assignments with a bit of personal work on the side. They're still good photos.

Then, lets look around in the media. Look at the photos in the big magazines, billboards, ads and so on and compare the photos here on MM with them. More than often, the photos here don't look like what the business buys, because they're not. They are pretty, sometimes creative photos, that's all. Does that make them bad. Nope. They're not what I do though. Even in a career that has spanned 35+ years in a major market, I shot people for fun, and for clients that needed a people shot. Otherwise, I was where the money was, food, tabletop and special effects for the clients I listed and more....

Digital Czar wrote:

I also have no idea if the model can pull off the photo concept I might want to do based on the photos in her port that aren't what I want to do or even close.
Not much difference there.

However, lets look at this in another way. My photos are mostly from paid assignments with a bit of personal work on the side. They're still good photos.

Then, lets look around in the media. Look at the photos in the big magazines, billboards, ads and so on and compare the photos here on MM with them. More than often, the photos here don't look like what the business buys, because they're not. They are pretty, sometimes creative photos, that's all. Does that make them bad. Nope. They're not what I do though. Even in a career that has spanned 35+ years in a major market, I shot people for fun, and for clients that needed a people shot. Otherwise, I was where the money was, food, tabletop and special effects for the clients I listed and more....

Why on earth would you contact a model for trade without knowing if she could pull off your concepts? There's no logic in that.

The reasons for why you took the photos in your port ate irrelevant. At the end of the day, models trade to improve their portfolios. As your portfolio stands, there's no way of telling if you could improve a model's portfolio.

Pay a couple excellent models. Put up the photos from those shoots. Then you can start asking for and getting models to trade with you.

Bill Tracy Photography wrote:

I would think the work has improved if anything.  Usually people get better at things with years of practice.  Plus I think he's already updated now.  I also think some photographers feel the slots provided on here are just to showcase what you can do, old examples or not.

20 years away for a model would be devastating as they're too old by then, I would think.  I was thinking more of just an outdated port by a year or less.

Yes, he might have improved. Or he might not have. A lot had changed in photography in the last 20 years. The point is we have no way of telling.

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:

Yes, he might have improved. Or he might not have. A lot had changed in photography in the last 20 years. The point is we have no way of telling.

Well there's no way he'd get worse.  Photography has only gotten better and easier over the years.  And who says he had to improve anyway.  If what he did years ago looks amazing, that should be good enough.

Bill Tracy Photography wrote:

Well there's no way he'd get worse.  Photography has only gotten better and easier over the years.  And who says he had to improve anyway.  If what he did years ago looks amazing, that should be good enough.

Obviously it isn't enough, because models aren't responding to his trade offers. Either he can update is portfolio and they'll respond, or he can bitch about how awful models are to him in the forums. Seeing as he doesn't seem interested in paying a couple models to update his portfolio and he has been continuously bad mouthing models, I doubt he'll be shooting with ANYONE from here.

Digital Czar wrote:

I also have no idea if the model can pull off the photo concept I might want to do based on the photos in her port that aren't what I want to do or even close.
Not much difference there.

However, lets look at this in another way. My photos are mostly from paid assignments with a bit of personal work on the side. They're still good photos.

Then, lets look around in the media. Look at the photos in the big magazines, billboards, ads and so on and compare the photos here on MM with them. More than often, the photos here don't look like what the business buys, because they're not. They are pretty, sometimes creative photos, that's all. Does that make them bad. Nope. They're not what I do though. Even in a career that has spanned 35+ years in a major market, I shot people for fun, and for clients that needed a people shot. Otherwise, I was where the money was, food, tabletop and special effects for the clients I listed and more....

Your career in photography has spanned 35 years, mine has spanned 5.
You live in Chicago, I live in Oakland.
Your "big brand clients" include ATT, Mine include a local SF corset designer.

According to all these comparisons you should be able to get models left and right in your area.... Yet you can't...

Why is it I can book a flight to Chicago, secure a studio, and have several models lined up for pretty much any project I can come up with in less than a week?

What your 35 years of experience has apparently NOT taught you is networking is JUST as important as your camera skillz.

Maybe if you stop telling people you're an out of date irrelevant obsolete dinosaur, and start asking those around you who are well liked/respected and patched in to the current social/art/business networks.

You just might get a model to do more than:
Read your message.
Click on your portfolio.
Delete your message.

In short, no one cares what you did, or how much money you made in 1987. People care what you accomplished last month. You could be shooting with a gold plated Leica S2, but until you learn that you need to SELL yourself to your current market, you'll be shooting nothing but still life.


*drops mike*

Carle Photography wrote:

Your career in photography has spanned 35 years, mine has spanned 5.
You live in Chicago, I live in Oakland.
Your "big brand clients" include ATT, Mine include a local SF corset designer.

According to all these comparisons you should be able to get models left and right in your area.... Yet you can't...

Why is it I can book a flight to Chicago, secure a studio, and have several models lined up for pretty much any project I can come up with in less than a week?

What your 35 years of experience has apparently NOT taught you is networking is JUST as important as your camera skillz.

Maybe if you stop telling people you're an out of date irrelevant obsolete dinosaur, and start asking those around you who are well liked/respected and patched in to the current social/art/business networks.

You just might get a model to do more than:
Read your message.
Click on your portfolio.
Delete your message.

In short, no one cares what you did, or how much money you made in 1987. People care what you accomplished last month. You could be shooting with a gold plated Leica S2, but until you learn that you need to SELL yourself to your current market, you'll be shooting nothing but still life.


*drops mike*

ouch.

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:

Obviously it isn't enough, because models aren't responding to his trade offers. Either he can update is portfolio and they'll respond, or he can bitch about how awful models are to him in the forums. Seeing as he doesn't seem interested in paying a couple models to update his portfolio and he has been continuously bad mouthing models, I doubt he'll be shooting with ANYONE from here.

+10000

Carle Photography wrote:

Your career in photography has spanned 35 years, mine has spanned 5.
You live in Chicago, I live in Oakland.
Your "big brand clients" include ATT, Mine include a local SF corset designer.

According to all these comparisons you should be able to get models left and right in your area.... Yet you can't...

Why is it I can book a flight to Chicago, secure a studio, and have several models lined up for pretty much any project I can come up with in less than a week?

What your 35 years of experience has apparently NOT taught you is networking is JUST as important as your camera skillz.

Maybe if you stop telling people you're an out of date irrelevant obsolete dinosaur, and start asking those around you who are well liked/respected and patched in to the current social/art/business networks.

You just might get a model to do more than:
Read your message.
Click on your portfolio.
Delete your message.

In short, no one cares what you did, or how much money you made in 1987. People care what you accomplished last month. You could be shooting with a gold plated Leica S2, but until you learn that you need to SELL yourself to your current market, you'll be shooting nothing but still life.


*drops mike*

Agreed

Fotografica Gregor wrote:
And I would only offer the observation that if you have something models really want,  you will not lack for responses.   I'm just a middlin' photographer with the occasional publication - not a rock star by far - and I'm booked 6 weeks out constantly....  and most of the time my bookings are initiated by models....

Hah –"middlin' photographer" my foot! You have an excellent portfolio, lots of originality, and beautifully realized images. Very inspiring work!

Carle Photography wrote:

Your career in photography has spanned 35 years, mine has spanned 5.
You live in Chicago, I live in Oakland.
Your "big brand clients" include ATT, Mine include a local SF corset designer.

According to all these comparisons you should be able to get models left and right in your area.... Yet you can't...

Why is it I can book a flight to Chicago, secure a studio, and have several models lined up for pretty much any project I can come up with in less than a week?

What your 35 years of experience has apparently NOT taught you is networking is JUST as important as your camera skillz.

Maybe if you stop telling people you're an out of date irrelevant obsolete dinosaur, and start asking those around you who are well liked/respected and patched in to the current social/art/business networks.

You just might get a model to do more than:
Read your message.
Click on your portfolio.
Delete your message.

In short, no one cares what you did, or how much money you made in 1987. People care what you accomplished last month. You could be shooting with a gold plated Leica S2, but until you learn that you need to SELL yourself to your current market, you'll be shooting nothing but still life.


*drops mike*

I don't shoot the stuff you do. Apparently there's a big demand for what you do. That's good isn't it?
Choking chickens that is...

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:

Obviously it isn't enough, because models aren't responding to his trade offers. Either he can update is portfolio and they'll respond, or he can bitch about how awful models are to him in the forums. Seeing as he doesn't seem interested in paying a couple models to update his portfolio and he has been continuously bad mouthing models, I doubt he'll be shooting with ANYONE from here.

I haven't offered anything in the way of "Trade Offers". I've inquired of models if they're still modeling, might be interested in working on a project, but NO concrete offers.I've messaged seeking info, nothing more. Oh, and if I were to pay a model, I have wonderful agencies here in Chicago that I can resort to for real jobs, which I have.

Digital Czar wrote:
Models, no matter if beginner or a true pearl, want work. In some cases they want to trade for images for their book. Same can be said for photographers.

However it's particularly galling that people sign up to be a model here, and we know it's in the hundreds of thousands, then don't even have the barest scrap of professionalism to leave  a good image of themselves by answering emails directed to them.

Oh well...goes with the territory I suppose.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
1)  Yes, adjust your expectations.

2)  No one is obligated to respond to every e-mail they get.

3)  No response is all the answer you need.

a)  I'm surprised that this thread is still going strong after a few months.

b)  Of course, I figure that true "professionals" would be able to roll easily with not getting a response from a potential model.

c)  And, of course, I don't consider it professional for people to initiate threads with unsolicited advice for people who are probably not even reading the thread.

But that's just me.

Looknsee Photography wrote:

Digital Czar wrote:
Models, no matter if beginner or a true pearl, want work. In some cases they want to trade for images for their book. Same can be said for photographers.

However it's particularly galling that people sign up to be a model here, and we know it's in the hundreds of thousands, then don't even have the barest scrap of professionalism to leave  a good image of themselves by answering emails directed to them.

Oh well...goes with the territory I suppose.

a)  I'm surprised that this thread is still going strong after a few months.

b)  Of course, I figure that true "professionals" would be able to roll easily with not getting a response from a potential model.

c)  And, of course, I don't consider it professional for people to initiate threads with unsolicited advice for people who are probably not even reading the thread.

But that's just me.

Apparently there are folks worked up...and more than I was with the OP. Oh well...

Digital Czar wrote:
I haven't offered anything in the way of "Trade Offers".

In your original post you wrote "Models, no matter if beginner or a true pearl, want work. In some cases they want to trade for images for their book. Same can be said for photographers." The implication was that you were asking for trade.

Digital Czar wrote:
I've inquired of models if they're still modeling, might be interested in working on a project, but NO concrete offers.I've messaged seeking info, nothing more.

For many models lack of info in a message is a red flag. As is an outdated portfolio with no credited models.

Digital Czar wrote:
Oh, and if I were to pay a model, I have wonderful agencies here in Chicago that I can resort to for real jobs, which I have.

So why not put some of those recent shots up? Getting all high and mighty about all the "real jobs" you do isn't going to get you models from MM to shoot with you, which I assume was your goal in signing up for this website since you've been whining about how much they won't shoot with you.

Carle Photography wrote:
Your career in photography has spanned 35 years, mine has spanned 5.
You live in Chicago, I live in Oakland.
Your "big brand clients" include ATT, Mine include a local SF corset designer.

According to all these comparisons you should be able to get models left and right in your area.... Yet you can't...

Why is it I can book a flight to Chicago, secure a studio, and have several models lined up for pretty much any project I can come up with in less than a week?

What your 35 years of experience has apparently NOT taught you is networking is JUST as important as your camera skillz.

Maybe if you stop telling people you're an out of date irrelevant obsolete dinosaur, and start asking those around you who are well liked/respected and patched in to the current social/art/business networks.

You just might get a model to do more than:
Read your message.
Click on your portfolio.
Delete your message.

In short, no one cares what you did, or how much money you made in 1987. People care what you accomplished last month. You could be shooting with a gold plated Leica S2, but until you learn that you need to SELL yourself to your current market, you'll be shooting nothing but still life.


*drops mike*

+1

GER Photography wrote:
It's the Internet, it's full of Freaks, Geeks and Socially Unacceptables. Some of them send messages that would get them beaten to a pulp in person, said messages deserve no response.

fascinating, well said!

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:

Digital Czar wrote:
I haven't offered anything in the way of "Trade Offers".

In your original post you wrote "Models, no matter if beginner or a true pearl, want work. In some cases they want to trade for images for their book. Same can be said for photographers." The implication was that you were asking for trade.

Digital Czar wrote:
I've inquired of models if they're still modeling, might be interested in working on a project, but NO concrete offers.I've messaged seeking info, nothing more.

For many models lack of info in a message is a red flag. As is an outdated portfolio with no credited models.


So why not put some of those recent shots up? Getting all high and mighty about all the "real jobs" you do isn't going to get you models from MM to shoot with you, which I assume was your goal in signing up for this website since you've been whining about how much they won't shoot with you.

Quite a mouth for a young, "Professional", model, no?  I offered nothing to anyone kiddo, but I WAS asking for information to see if we could work together. You might think about the high horse you're on...

Digital Czar wrote:
Oh well...goes with the territory I suppose.

if you do not wish to get a no response, then don't write to them in the first place.

Digital Czar wrote:

Quite a mouth for a young, "Professional", model, no?  I offered nothing to anyone kiddo, but I WAS asking for information to see if we could work together. You might think about the high horse you're on...

I (and many others) have been giving you endless suggestions on how to get models to respond to you. All you've done in return is talk down to models (excellent example in your last post), bad-mouth anyone who has tried to help you out, and whine instead of seeking a solution.

If you have no interest in trying to solve your predicament, then what are you doing here?

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:

I (and many others) have been giving you endless suggestions on how to get models to respond to you. All you've done in return is talk down to models (excellent example in your last post), bad-mouth anyone who has tried to help you out, and whine instead of seeking a solution.

If you have no interest in trying to solve your predicament, then what are you doing here?

May I have a T, Alex?

Magda Kulpinska wrote:
As much as it's a matter of good manners to reply to messages, I think if people don't read my ''about me'' section that says ''paid assignments only'' and offer TFP I don't see why I should bother to reply.... Unless the offer is particularly tempting (editorial or superb photographer), I just ignore the message.

i think it is somehow in our nature [hominid] to objectify fault onto everything and everyone except where it really belongs...on ourselves. i've done plenty of that myself, but have found that such a view is pretty much unworkable. so, i just assume now that the unresponsiveness is due to my work not being suitable in one way or another to the person being approached. with that in mind i am working to increase my value or desirability. it's a long climb.

the OP is clearly stuck in the 80's. talk about a long climb out of a rut. shift the blame to the one place something can be done about it. you.

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:

I (and many others) have been giving you endless suggestions on how to get models to respond to you. All you've done in return is talk down to models (excellent example in your last post), bad-mouth anyone who has tried to help you out, and whine instead of seeking a solution.

If you have no interest in trying to solve your predicament, then what are you doing here?

to whine!

Digital Czar wrote:

Quite a mouth for a young, "Professional", model, no?  I offered nothing to anyone kiddo, but I WAS asking for information to see if we could work together. You might think about the high horse you're on...

WTF is your problem?

Mouth? What did she say? Where's the disrespect?

You really dislike honesty I see.

Go back to 30 years ago, you'll fit there perfectly!

Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:

I (and many others) have been giving you endless suggestions on how to get models to respond to you. All you've done in return is talk down to models (excellent example in your last post), bad-mouth anyone who has tried to help you out, and whine instead of seeking a solution.

If you have no interest in trying to solve your predicament, then what are you doing here?

The only place I have what you call a predicament, is here on this wacky,goofy site. I don't consider it any predicament though you seem to for I made a simple comment on folks having the professional courtesy to respond to questions about them. That's all it was, no more. You're one of the ones fanning the flames and making this into a brouha-ha. Leave it already.

Digital Czar wrote:

The only place I have what you call a predicament, is here on this wacky,goofy site. I don't consider it any predicament though you seem to for I made a simple comment on folks having the professional courtesy to respond to questions about them. That's all it was, no more. You're one of the ones fanning the flames and making this into a brouha-ha. Leave it already.

omg!If you think MM is wacky and goofy then why are you here?!Just use agency models then and move on.

Digital Czar wrote:
The only place I have what you call a predicament, is here on this wacky,goofy site. I don't consider it any predicament though you seem to for I made a simple comment on folks having the professional courtesy to respond to questions about them. That's all it was, no more. You're one of the ones fanning the flames and making this into a brouha-ha. Leave it already.

and you are digging yourself a hole. if you write to models the way you do in the forums, then you are doomed. and models also search the forums to see what else spews forth from your fingertips. it's not looking like a very pretty picture.

Digital Czar wrote:

The only place I have what you call a predicament, is here on this wacky,goofy site. I don't consider it any predicament though you seem to for I made a simple comment on folks having the professional courtesy to respond to questions about them. That's all it was, no more. You're one of the ones fanning the flames and making this into a brouha-ha. Leave it already.

Silly me. Here I thought you were on MM to find models to shoot with, and were upset that you couldn't even get them to respond to you. I must have read your OP wrong. My bad.

Turns out, your sole purpose here is to talk down to MM models instead of shooting them and complain about the utter "unprofessionalism" we exhibit site-wide.

Sounds to me like your problems go far beyond the lack of "professional courtesy" you experience on this site.