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nope, still editing and going through 1400 plus shots......currently on the plane using wifi  May 16 09 11:22 pm Link I think I should finally get on a plane and go somewhere.  May 16 09 11:33 pm Link fly Virgin.........you'll always love being with Virgin after that May 16 09 11:53 pm Link SNAPSHOT LA wrote: I sure am!... I'm at GlamourCon and I got drunk modelbabes in the room... May 17 09 12:27 am Link MistressChris wrote: In reality, you girls would have liked to get paid (for said releases). Releases are for photographers. Unfortunately, someone gave all the girls a very wrong idea about model releases. In reality, we photographers have all the rights to post them in here or in our portfolios, w/ or w/o a release... May 17 09 01:31 am Link Hold onto ya' butts...it's gonna' get rocky in here. May 17 09 03:26 am Link Paul Brecht wrote: i'm not picking on you by using this quote... May 17 09 03:31 am Link webglamour wrote: There's just a little irony in your post... May 17 09 03:54 am Link Paul Brecht wrote: webglamour wrote: maybe you read it, but you sure didnt understand it. i didnt say anything about marketing a site, professional or otherwise. did i even say 'professional site' in my post? wtf? May 17 09 03:58 am Link Advertising a hobby is commercial ? Paul May 17 09 04:00 am Link Paul Brecht wrote: why are you posting the photos at all? why do you have a portfolio here? maybe to show people how good you are.. or whatever. you are advertising yourself. maybe not expecting to make money off the stuff. May 17 09 04:07 am Link webglamour wrote: I'm not going to argue w/ you, except you are grossly misquoting me... May 17 09 04:20 am Link Paul Brecht wrote: sorry... thats what i was referring to. but i don't really think that's fair use... legally. May 17 09 04:23 am Link webglamour wrote: & that goes to my original point - nobody will post or share any images w/ the models... May 17 09 04:37 am Link Paul Brecht wrote: well that point was valid as far as posting goes. but the legalities have nothing to do with 'sharing'. May 17 09 04:50 am Link webglamour wrote: Paul Brecht wrote: webglamour wrote: I think, that this is the whole point to this thread, most photographers will not post images or send images to models for them to use without being able to use them themselves and im sure that everyone is trying to avoid the drama. May 17 09 10:32 am Link Select Models wrote: Damn Gary, i drunk way too much last night. haha May 17 09 10:34 am Link Ed Burns Photography wrote: May 17 09 10:40 am Link Select Models wrote: Drunk Models+Gary= NO COMMENT! May 17 09 10:42 am Link SNAPSHOT LA wrote: I was wondering the same thing! lol May 17 09 11:23 am Link webglamour wrote: Everything you pointed to is for advertising. If you are not selling your services or have a business and there are no customers then your not advertising...your just demonstrating your art. If you then try to sell that art is where you have a problem with out a release. May 17 09 11:51 am Link I love your images of Chris. Mike D photography wrote: Legally i don't think there is a difference... and I posted a court case to back it up. Mike D photography wrote: The keyword is that you are using their likeness for an 'advantage', not necessairly money. Mike D photography wrote: I would think that if the models were told that releases were to be bought, or could be bought, they would have an expectation that images without a release would not be used. May 17 09 12:34 pm Link webglamour wrote: But that course case seems to have to do with photos being sold to a commercial company? They are using it for commercial purposes. webglamour wrote: It would...debating is always fun and the law really opens itself up to it. May 17 09 02:13 pm Link Mike D photography wrote: it would appear we have some common interests. May 17 09 02:39 pm Link SNAPSHOT LA wrote: glad you had fun!!! May 17 09 02:54 pm Link Ok...it took me awhile to go through the arguments and see what the final outcome was. As far a matter of privacy...I actually had a legal situation last year where a models BF was irate because I posted some implied taken on the beach. The case was resolved when the descision was made that since the photographs were taken on a public beach with civilians in site, that model lost all rights to presumed privacy. Question...if the models are in the dressing room and poses with another model (being cute, blowing kisses, being sexy) while they are getting ready, takes a few pictures with her, does she need a model release from the other model if she puts it her MM profile. Hmmmmmmm? I really think it's a matter of what side of the fench you stand on...both models and photographers have valid points. None of us are lawyers and almost anyone can find a legal quote online to back up their point of view. To clear up a few points on the shoot: The models were given the option to sell thier releases, it doesn't mean the photographer has to buy. It's the models job to make her image commercially viable, some models aren't at that level yet. Hopefully some used this as a networkiing day and cemented a few relationships that grow into paid shoots. It's the photographers right to see if there are value to the images he took, whether commercially or even to himself. How do you judge that value, when you haven't even seen your images yet? I have had a few shooters write me after the shoot asking for MM#s of some models, so they can contact them and purchase a release. Also, even though the models could sell thier releases, they were also given the option to set up private, reasonably priced mini nude shoots. If they didn't capitalize on that, I'm sorry. Some choose to walk around nude all day, letting anyone click away. May 17 09 03:18 pm Link Yaaay! Mike D! We did good, didn't we  May 17 09 06:04 pm Link webglamour wrote: LOL! pisser...hahahaha! May 17 09 06:05 pm Link Lots of great shots of Chris May 17 09 09:47 pm Link Paul Brecht wrote: I agree with Paul... May 18 09 01:28 pm Link i dont personally care if anyone posts my images. what i cared about was that we went up there for work. and when asked if we wanted to do the shoot the idea was we would get paid by selling our releases. most photographers seemed completely unaware that we werent paid, and that we wanted to get paid, or anything about that. watches dont pay my bills, i would never have driven to malibu for a whole day for anything other than cash. michael i talked to you personally about it before we began shooting and you said not to worry that the photographers knew they had to pay us or they couldnt use the photos you briefly mentioned to me that i could sell private sessions, but i shot private sessions all day with the understanding that i would get paid at the end of the day, so i didnt charge extra, and honestly no one wouldve paid for it anyway cause there was an understanding that they had already paid. i personally normally charge $100 dollars an hour for nude, and get paid as much. whether anyone thinks i'm pretty enough to get paid that much is none of my business. but i dont get really excited about getting naked for a bunch of dudes, but i do get excited about keeping my cell phone on. in seven hours of that shoot i made $100. i was kinda sad afterward to put it lightly. i dont want to be a bitch but the models got screwed. sea-j hustled her ass up there on mothers day when she has two kids at home and walked with 80$ i would love to see photos that i could use, i'm obvioulsy not going to tell people they cant use them cause really no one is going to mail me a check for $20 to use them. i messaged you michael that you did a good job and that i wasnt mad, but to even say this is our fault is not right. May 18 09 10:11 pm Link Thank you Julie Leigh. Let me start by saying I am not a bitter person, nor am I difficult to work with. A few of the photographers there have worked with me in the past and can vouch for that. That being said- every model there was there with the understanding that she would get paid. Alot are being nice on this thread, but most of us talked about it in the dressing areas. For the time, effort and energy, most of us made between $5-$20 an hour, if anything at all. I am not in a position to schedule TFP's right now because like everyone else, I have rent and bills to pay and I don't take days off because I cannot afford it at the moment. I don't want to sound bitter, but I had one photographer that after giving him the majority of my time, emailed me and said he deleted every single one of his shots from that day because of the legality mess that is being drummed up. For the photographers to have no intention of paying any girls (one even said he didn't bring any cash at all), then they should have made it apparent up front, therefore everyone would have worked that day knowing what was in store and could have planned accordingly. It is not Mike's fault, we ALL read the same bulletin. Thank you, Mike, for your time and organizing the shoot. There are a handful of photographers that this message does not apply to, and I thank you for being professional and considerate. For those that have made my images available, THANK YOU! If you would like to schedule a shoot, please message me, and if my schedule and financial situation permits, then I may be able to consider TFP. Have a good week. KO May 19 09 01:02 am Link Bump...  May 19 09 01:17 am Link I dont want to get blamed for killing this thread. lol I had a great time.. and I appreciate the effort and all the work Michael put into making it happen. and the models were just awesome!  May 19 09 01:50 am Link OK...first thank you KO for being understanding. My only intention was to put on a good event and make sure everyone leaves happy. My wife says that's my only fault, trying to please everyone. You can't do that... I'm not throwing any one under the bus, but except for maybe 2 photographers and a couple models, everyone has participated, heard about or generally knew what to expect from group shoots. Maybe some of the photographers didn't buy release because thier images weren't post worthy, much less commercially viable. There were models at my Laguna shoot that made out like bandits with selling releases, I'm not sure but I think Jeska did really well. That's why I gave that option. I can't force photographers to buy releases and everyone has their own opinion about the need for release and or images. But I also knew that there were people there with money, why they didn't want to part with it, I don't know. The models were required to pose in bikini's, lingerie, sexy dresses, I knew some posed nude and that photographers like that, that's why I gave the option at the start of the shoot to a couple of models to go ahead and schedule mini shoots, so they can get paid. Had I attended this shoot as a photographer, I would have brought enough money to purchase atleast 5 releases, knowing my tastes and demends would have been met. May 19 09 08:32 am Link Mike, your event was awesome and I did get to meet a ton of great people. Thanks for everything that you did in putting this shoot together. It was not an easy task and you are right, you cant please everyone. Cheers May 19 09 08:50 am Link Key Photography wrote: oh! oh! This is awesome!!! May 19 09 08:57 am Link Key Photography wrote: man, this pic is awesome......what did you do to get this effect if you dont mind me asking? May 19 09 10:26 am Link Michael Barrett wrote: Mike your group shoot was runned like most group shoots are and haved been runned for years. At some shoots the model could be promised a simple lunch or just pics and at other shoots the model could just recieve gas money. I have been to a group shoot where some models got $20 while 1 or 2 models got $140(even more). The model getting $140 wasn't doing anything more than the girl that was getting $20. Group shoots have been and still are to a point a good way to network for both models and photographers. May 19 09 10:59 am Link I was going to refrain from taking part in this debate, but at the risk of being ostracized from future events, I'm going to give my .02. As with everyone else, I'm grateful to Michael for hosting this event. It was a great location, which really is what sold me on the idea of joining this shoot (well, that and the list of models who were attending). I knew up front though, that if I shot with some of the models who were attending, then there would be an expectation of getting paid for a signed release. Because of that, I brought a good amount of cash just in case I got some really unique shots that I would like to see published some day. When I asked around and learned that most of the models were only asking $20 for a release, I felt that was more than reasonable and well worth the effort they were putting into it. I also realized however that I wouldn't be shooting with every model there, because I wasn't prepared to pay out over $300 in releases on top of the sign up fee I had already paid. Therefore, I was very selective with whom I shot with, and only shot with those who were dressed (or in Sea J's case undressed) in a style that fit the type of shots I was going for. In total, I shot less than 300 images with only about 5 or 6 models. Some I already had planned TFP shoots with, so we just took that opportunity to shoot there. Others, I did pay their release fee. For the last couple, we made an agreement there that I would provide them the photos in lieu of payment (in essence, TFCD). Part of the reason I shot so few images though, was because of the papparazzi style shoot out that was going on. This kind of annoyed me later on, because I paid for a couple of releases, yet only shot about 20 photos with those models I paid for. Being my first time at one of these, I assumed the guys that were hogging up...errr...shooting these models were also planning on paying them, so I didn't want to step on their toes. I found out later on though, that some of these guys were taking up well over an hours worth of the model's time, then said they had no intention of paying for either the time spent, or a release. I call bullshit. In my opinion, those photographers that are willing to pay for releases should get priority shooting time. Let the other guys who aren't going to pay snap off a few shots, and then have them move on. I would say that's both fair and reasonable, and also makes it worth everyone's while. In essence, the models get paid accordingly for their time in either cash or quality photos; the photographers that pay get a good amount of time to create with their models in an outstanding location; and the non-payers still get tiny treasures for their spank bank as well as happy memories. I also feel that those photographers who were able/willing to pay should be allowed one-on-one time with the model. I, quite frankly, found it irritating when I would set up a shot (some with props that I brought my self), and then a swarm of photographers would huddle in around me and take over the set. Again, I didn't say anything for the sake of keeping the peace, but in all honesty it was disheartening. I think there should be some form of etiquette and professionalism amongst the herd...but that's just me. I would hate to see models become reluctant to attend future events because of the way this shoot went. I can see why they would want all-inclusive shoots at higher entrance fees though, because it guarantees the models will get paid something for their time. At the same time however, I can see how higher entrance fees will keep a whole lot of photographers away and essentially leave the models empty handed in the end. I'd say regardless of what your take is on model releases, as a courtesy we as photographers should be willing to give a model a little something for her time. $20 is not much, so consider it a tip if you have a hard time swallowing the idea of having to pay for a release. On that same token, if you can't afford to pay a small fee for the model's time, then don't waste it by demanding shot after shot after shot after shot. Snap a couple and move on. May 19 09 12:14 pm Link |
what a pisser... 
