ACPhotography wrote:
How about it comes down to each individual person and situation? Some people are very touchy-feely and some aren't?

For me at least, it's not about being or not being touchy-feely.  It's about how to practically address something that will improve the shoot.  Sometimes that somthing requires touching another person.

Augustine York wrote:
I can't recall a single time in modeling where someone had to put a hand on me to show me how to pose or to adjust a piece of clothing for me. Usually a quick "move your bra strap" or "to the left" or "look up" does the trick.

If a model is so inept at following direction, or a photographer is so inept at giving it, that the photographer needs to be physically touching the model to get her to move the way he wants her to... then someone is doing something wrong.

And yes, I know there are some exceptions where someone is in such a complicated pose they can't even reach their own panties to adjust them, but seriously, how often do those scenarios happen?

Ignore following...I posted before reading through. It has all been said.


Not as bad as reaching panties, but...

I have often been in a position of having the pose work just right with the light, and a bra strap or hair needing to be adjusted. Tell the model and you usually have to start the pose all over again. I do not touch, and rarely ask permission to touch, so it becomes frustrating.

Admittedly, with a very experienced model, or one who has pro dance experience this is not an issue as they can adjust anything, without moving anything else.

And if I could afford MUA and/stylist I would have them do it. But like much in life it is often easier to do it yourself then to explain to others what you need doing.

Of course this only pertains to a static pose.

Artemis Bare wrote:
Don't touch me!!!

You don't know where I've been....

In your case I would take my chances.

William Kious wrote:

Because society is being programmed to think that all touch is bad.  *sigh*  Think about it.  Hell, kids aren't even allowed to hug each other in school anymore.

I don't see how we're the better for it.

We are much, much worse for it.

Shiva Photo wrote:
" I will not tolerate HANDS ON PHOTOGRAPHERS " This appears in a recent model portfolio

Reluctance of a model to be touched by the photographer even for adjustment of a pose for best angle or lighting is counter productive to getting the best shots. Review of You tube videos and DVDS show that the best photographers in the field adjust the models face and body. It appears to be an accepted practice.

Models who are absolutely " touch me not"  must think twice about a serious career in modeling.

Photographers and Models opinions are welcome. A touchy subject no doubt.

What ever happened to common courtesy?  Have people become so absorbed with technology that they've forgotten how to talk with each other?

I've probably "touched" thousands of people over the years while working for "institutional/retail" portrait studios.  It's very simple; Open your mouth and speak ... say "May I touch you?"  "May I make an adjustment of your hair?"  "May I move your arm?"  "May I show you how I want you to hold your baby?"  Unless someone announces to me that they absolutely do not want to be touched ... "Yes, Mr Howie Mandel!"  I may touch someone. 

Communication can effectively resolve the issue of "escorts" and "flakes" too!  Use respect and speak clearly!  Ask ...  "May I bring a guest to the shoot?"  The answer maybe "yes or no" but NEVER assume that a model is ok with being touched, and never assume that a photographer is ok with uninvited guests.  If you are going to be late or you can't make it to a shoot, pick up the phone and call!  Is that so difficult?

Patrick Walberg wrote:

What ever happened to common courtesy?  Have people become so absorbed with technology that they've forgotten how to talk with each other?

I've probably "touched" thousands of people over the years while working for "institutional/retail" portrait studios.  It's very simple; Open your mouth and speak ... say "May I touch you?"  "May I make an adjustment of your hair?"  "May I move your arm?"  "May I show you how I want you to hold your baby?"  Unless someone announces to me that they absolutely do not want to be touched ... "Yes, Mr Howie Mandel!"  I may touch someone. 

Communication can effectively resolve the issue of "escorts" and "flakes" too!  Use respect and speak clearly!  Ask ...  "May I bring a guest to the shoot?"  The answer maybe "yes or no" but NEVER assume that a model is ok with being touched, and never assume that a photographer is ok with uninvited guests.  If you are going to be late or you can't make it to a shoot, pick up the phone and call!  Is that so difficult?

Well said.

Patrick Walberg wrote:

What ever happened to common courtesy?  Have people become so absorbed with technology that they've forgotten how to talk with each other?

I've probably "touched" thousands of people over the years while working for "institutional/retail" portrait studios.  It's very simple; Open your mouth and speak ... say "May I touch you?"  "May I make an adjustment of your hair?"  "May I move your arm?"  "May I show you how I want you to hold your baby?"  Unless someone announces to me that they absolutely do not want to be touched ... "Yes, Mr Howie Mandel!"  I may touch someone. 

Communication can effectively resolve the issue of "escorts" and "flakes" too!  Use respect and speak clearly!  Ask ...  "May I bring a guest to the shoot?"  The answer maybe "yes or no" but NEVER assume that a model is ok with being touched, and never assume that a photographer is ok with uninvited guests.  If you are going to be late or you can't make it to a shoot, pick up the phone and call!  Is that so difficult?

This!!!

Augustine York wrote:
I can't recall a single time in modeling where someone had to put a hand on me to show me how to pose or to adjust a piece of clothing for me. Usually a quick "move your bra strap" or "to the left" or "look up" does the trick.

If a model is so inept at following direction, or a photographer is so inept at giving it, that the photographer needs to be physically touching the model to get her to move the way he wants her to... then someone is doing something wrong.

And yes, I know there are some exceptions where someone is in such a complicated pose they can't even reach their own panties to adjust them, but seriously, how often do those scenarios happen?

Yup

Tansy Blue wrote:
I'm reading this conversation as and models going "actually we're not cool with this" and photographers going "WELL THEN YOU SHOULDN'T BE A MODEL".

Just ask permission...

I agree that asking permission should be adequate, but I disagree this thread is about "being a whole bunch of photographers asserting their right to touch models without seeking permission or giving warning". 

The first words of this thread were about a model stating:

" I will not tolerate HANDS ON PHOTOGRAPHERS " This appears in a recent model portfolio"

Later comments like:

"I "Do Not Touch Models"  No need to!!"  and " No photographer off model mayhem will be "adjusting" me" make it clear that some think a model should never be touched even when asked or it's a necessary adjustment.

Augustine York wrote:
If a model is so inept at following direction, or a photographer is so inept at giving it, that the photographer needs to be physically touching the model to get her to move the way he wants her to... then someone is doing something wrong.

It's not a matter of ineptness its:

1.  The photographer is the one trying to achieve a certain pose or look - he knows what he's after better than the model.

2.  Sometimes just moving something where you want it is faster and more efficient than trying to communicate to a person as exactly how to do it themself.

3.  The photographer sees the model and the overall set from a perspective the model does not.

4.   Sometimes, it's just not easy for someone who is modeling to make the necessary adjustment:  They can't see how their hair is out of place, can't reach something as easily, or doing so will disrupt the pose.

Abbitt Photography wrote:
It's not a matter of ineptness its:

1.  The photographer is the one trying to achieve a certain pose or look - he knows what he's after better than the model.

2.  Sometimes just moving something where you want it is faster and more efficient than trying to communicate to a person as exactly how to do it themself.

3.  The photographer sees the model and the overall set from a perspective the model does not.

4.   Sometimes, it's just not easy for someone who is modeling to make the necessary adjustment:  They can't see how their hair is out of place, can't reach something as easily, or doing so will disrupt the pose.

So ask. Don't expect if you are in a one to one situation. It is fine if it is a multi person input shoot.
Apart from once I have never had this issue where photographers think it is a right. They nearly all know that in a one to one with nudity it requires a little respect.
How come we don't get artists demanding to touch us? I have modelled for hundreds and what you ask is the same for them. Sometimes sculptors in particular have to move you but they ask. Never assume.

So 'can I just move youir hair' you won't even have to wait for a respsonse in my case but I just want to know why suddenly your hand is coming toward me when I am stark naked. Especially when I have had a serious situation with a photographer in which touch meant touch me up. Other girls have had this problem too so hence you have to be just sensible about it.

Eliza C wrote:

So ask. Don't expect if you are in a one to one situation. It is fine if it is a multi person input shoot.
Apart from once I have never had this issue where photographers think it is a right. They nearly all know that in a one to one with nudity it requires a little respect.
How come we don't get artists demanding to touch us? I have modelled for hundreds and what you ask is the same for them. Sometimes sculptors in particular have to move you but they ask. Never assume.

So 'can I just move youir hair' you won't even have to wait for a respsonse in my case but I just want to know why suddenly your hand is coming toward me when I am stark naked. Especially when I have had a serious situation with a photographer in which touch meant touch me up. Other girls have had this problem too so hence you have to be just sensible about it.

As I said earlier, I always do ask and have never had a model indicate she thought there was anything wrong with it.

My point here wasn't about consent.  It was addressing the quoted idea that model ineptness is the reason a photographer would touch a model.  I don't touch models often, but when I do it is not because they are inept. It's because touching them is the most practical way to accomplish a task necesssary for the shoot.

Actually most of the contact is probably shaking hands with models when they arrive and leave.  That's actually not necessary for the shoot, but also has nothing to do with models being inept.

Abbitt Photography wrote:
I agree that asking permission should be adequate, but I disagree this thread is about "being a whole bunch of photographers asserting their right to touch models without seeking permission or giving warning". 

The first words of this thread were about a model stating:

" I will not tolerate HANDS ON PHOTOGRAPHERS " This appears in a recent model portfolio"

Later comments like:

"I "Do Not Touch Models"  No need to!!"  and " No photographer off model mayhem will be "adjusting" me" make it clear that some think a model should never be touched even when asked or it's a necessary adjustment.

To be fair, there's been a lot of ambiguity about where individuals in the thread stand. There appear to be three basic viewpoints:
- The photographer can and should move the model whenever (s)he wants. Touch is always okay.
- The photographer should always ask permission before touching the model. Touch is okay if the model grants permission.
- It is never okay to touch a model, ever.

There are quite a few people who have asserted that they feel it is necessary to touch a model during a shoot (eg "I will touch you"), but haven't clarified whether or not they think that asking permission is necessary. I've tentatively guessed that these people are unlikely to ask a model permission, but it's VERY tentative and just a guess.

There's also people who seem to think that the only reason a model might not like to be touched is because she's worried about the photographer getting cheap thrills from the touch, which kind of misses the point. It's a personal space thing not a sexual thing (well, for me at least).

I worked with a photographer on location once who walked up to me and started brushing dirt off my bum without asking. I'm sure this photographer wasn't getting a thrill out of it, and his thought process was "that shouldn't be in the shot. Let's remove it" without any sexuality attached. But he was still touching my bum! Get off! I don't like strangers touching my bum! D:

And yes, guys, this applies to everyone on set. In fact everyone in the WORLD. If I met you 5 hours ago, you do not have implicit permission to touch any part of me except possibly my hand in a hand shake.

Abbitt Photography wrote:
It's not a matter of ineptness its:

1.  The photographer is the one trying to achieve a certain pose or look - he knows what he's after better than the model.

2.  Sometimes just moving something where you want it is faster and more efficient than trying to communicate to a person as exactly how to do it themself.

3.  The photographer sees the model and the overall set from a perspective the model does not.

4.   Sometimes, it's just not easy for someone who is modeling to make the necessary adjustment:  They can't see how their hair is out of place, can't reach something as easily, or doing so will disrupt the pose.

Maybe having a large mirror for the model to see whats wrong may help. But carrying mirrors around is impractical,except maybe in a studio setting.

Tansy Blue wrote:

To be fair, there's been a lot of ambiguity about where individuals in the thread stand. There appear to be three basic viewpoints:
- The photographer can and should move the model whenever (s)he wants. Touch is always okay.
- The photographer should always ask permission before touching the model. Touch is okay if the model grants permission.
- It is never okay to touch a model, ever.

There are quite a few people who have asserted that they feel it is necessary to touch a model during a shoot (eg "I will touch you"), but haven't clarified whether or not they think that asking permission is necessary. I've tentatively guessed that these people are unlikely to ask a model permission, but it's VERY tentative and just a guess.

There's also people who seem to think that the only reason a model might not like to be touched is because she's worried about the photographer getting cheap thrills from the touch, which I kind of misses the point. It's a personal space thing not a sexual thing (well, for me at least).

I worked with a photographer on location once who walked up to me and started brushing dirt off my bum without asking. I'm sure this photographer wasn't getting a thrill out of it, and his thought process was "that shouldn't be in the shot. Let's remove it" without any sexuality attached. But he was still touching my bum! Get off! I don't like strangers touching my bum! D:

And yes, guys, this applies to everyone on set. In fact everyone in the WORLD. If I met you 5 hours ago, you do not have implicit permission to touch any part of me except possibly my hand in a hand shake.

Tansy, when I meet new models or people I have not worked with yet, first I find out their experience level. Then if they are new to modeling, I quickly go over the three most common methods I may use to communicate ... number one being verbal direction.  I've worked with deaf models before so that is not always possible.

Second most common method would be to mirror image the pose showing the model what I want him or her to do.  I do a lot of this since I've been in theater ... I just don't look as good doing the pose as the models I photograph!   

The third and least common method is to physically step in and make the adjustment.  Especially with a deaf model, I'm going to try to communicate before doing this.  Unless I've asked first, or if the model is someone I've worked with many times having been ok with my doing so ... I'm not going to touch them then. 

So what if a model has posted a statement that she does not want to be touched?  It's her purgative to do so and no one should question her on it.

Tansy Blue wrote:
I'm reading this conversation as being a whole bunch of photographers asserting their right to touch models without seeking permission or giving warning, and models going "actually we're not cool with this" and photographers going "WELL THEN YOU SHOULDN'T BE A MODEL".

Just ask permission, that's all that required. x.X

Similiar to riding the New York subways. You get pushed jostled and sometimes trampled.You dont like it, take a cab.

Shiva Photo wrote:

Maybe having a large mirror for the model to see whats wrong may help. But carrying mirrors around is impractical,except maybe in a studio setting.

I actually tried the mirror thing - some help but awkward and of limited use.  I now use a t.v. screen for my monitor as I shoot which is great to point out needed adjustments to the model, but still there are the occasional times when it's just more practical to make an adjustment myself, and again, I've never had a model object, which is why I find it kind of fascinating that some people are so strongly against any touch. Today my barber touched me, I shook at least 5 people's hands, had a casher touch me giving me change and touched a few people teaching a hands-on skill.  Maybe touch could have been avoided in any of those situations, but why avoid what makes sense and is most practical?

Eliza C wrote:
So ask. Don't expect if you are in a one to one situation. It is fine if it is a multi person input shoot.

You've said this about 25 times, and it's certainly your right, but nearly all my shoots are "one on one situations", I always ask first if I consider it helpful to adjust something, and out of at least a couple dozen occasions, I can't recall anyone I asked saying no.  One model did insist that I adjust her leg for a bodyscape shot by holding her thigh, because she had a "thing" about pretty much everything from the knees down.

Shiva Photo wrote:

Similiar to riding the New York subways. You get pushed jostled and sometimes trampled.You dont like it, take a cab.

(Having mentally substituted "London Tubes" for "New York subways".) No one likes it though. No one thinks it's a good thing. People find the process of riding the Tube stressful and unpleasant, and often leave it in a bad mood.

Is that how you want your photoshoot to be run?

Art of the nude wrote:
You've said this about 25 times, and it's certainly your right, but nearly all my shoots are "one on one situations", I always ask first if I consider it helpful to adjust something, and out of at least a couple dozen occasions, I can't recall anyone I asked saying no.  One model did insist that I adjust her leg for a bodyscape shot by holding her thigh, because she had a "thing" about pretty much everything from the knees down.

Then why am I still having to say it?
If you are in a one to one situation it is entirely different. Don't try to say it isn't. If your wife came in on a shoot and you had your hand on my ass it would NOT be considered appropriate by her so why would it be for me to expect it?

As you say you always ask; and if there is a leaf on my bum I will remove it myself. it is TOUGH if we have to redo the pose. If that happens and I am going to go on the runway then you can get in and remove anything from any part of me because there are other people around so it is different; and I am not completley naked (and by definition vulnerable).

It is the situation of one on one that takes a little common sense.
As I said I WAS asked if a photographer could touch me. Then it escalates to other stuff; then when I refused he calls the shoot off. He then does it to several other MM models and then he eventually gets done for attempted rape. This was a top published Fashion photographer. So even 'asking' does not mean you have the right to especially if it is a new model-photographer relationship. And goodness knows how many models were freaked out by this. Then I have heard about touchy feely photographers who do innocent things like try to hold hands. It isn't on.

That said; certain situations may require it. As I also said if needing to be lifted into a tree or something I wouldn't mind a bunk up by the leg or bottom but that would be with mutual consent.

It sounds like you do ask anyway so what is the fuss about?

Eliza C wrote:

That said; certain situations may require it. As I also said if needing to be lifted into a tree or something I wouldn't mind a bunk up by the leg or bottom but that would be with mutual consent.

I'll get a ladder for that.

c_h_r_i_s wrote:

I'll get a ladder for that.

Eliza C wrote:
If you are in a one to one situation it is entirely different. Don't try to say it isn't.

I'll say it:  It isn't entirely different.

If a model is holding a prop in a position I don't like and I move her arm so it's in a position I prefer, the purpose, and action are the same regardless of whether or not a third party is watching.   

The model's comfort level or perception may or may not be different, but my purpose and action is not any different.

In my experience most model's don't perceive it differently either.  The reason for touching them is clear and they consent just as they would if another person were present.

Patrick Walberg wrote:
I'm shocked, dismayed & dumb founded why this thread is still going, or even a topic! 

There are human beings on this Earth who absolutely do not want to be touched by anyone!  There are human beings who are more than ok with being touched.  Then there is everyone in between.  There are so many variables which with proper communication can be resolved quickly.  Is it really that difficult to ask before you touch? 

Howie Mandel makes it known that he does not shake hands, and that he was a phobia about being touched.   He simply does not like it!  Then we've got the case of the model who posts that she does not want to be touched by photographers under any circumstance which an example of is posted by the OP.   I would thank the model for making me aware of her request, and respect her.   

Doesn't everyone have friends and family whom some are not "touchy feely types" and others can't seem to get enough physical touching?   It's about respect.  Some of my friends are great with hugs, and some of them don't even put their hand out to shake.  So now can we move on to another subject yet?

I think you've missed the point entirely...the OP wasn't talking about day to day things, respect is understood as we're all adults.

The point IS that modeling by it's very nature is manipulation ( in many forms ), and physical, so physical manipulation WILL happen. As other examples have been given. If a model refuses to be touched for whatever reason he/she has, then don't model ! Quite simple...as another posted she does herself harm in her own career by posting that.

I doubt many cheerleaders would do well if they did not want to be touched...physical manipulation to get an image....
http://www.totalprosports.com/2011/03/2 … s-awesome/
http://www.insidestl.com/insideSTLcom/M … aders.aspx

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
dress well, look sharp and just ask.

Most photographers are not well dressed, they are not business executives. i dont understand how being well dressed makes the model more likely to allow touching for the shoot !

Model should accept the fact that the body parts have to be adjusted/angled to in the most harmonius way to provide the best composition for what the photographer has in mind for that particular shot.The photographer is the only person who can see the totality of the situation the model , background, foreground, lighting and everything else that is important for that particular shot.

i agree with the "ask" part.

Star wrote:
I have to ask, why does anyone need to touch the model using both hands and without asking? The very few times I guide by touch I use two fingers and tell the model before touching them that I need to touch them to adjust the pose slightly.

+1

Shiva Photo wrote:

Most photographers are not well dressed, they are not business executives. i dont understand how being well dressed makes the model more likely to allow touching for the shoot !

I'm sure there's a correlation to this reality. Business executives understand how important presentation is.

I encourage you and others to try it

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
dress well, look sharp and just ask.

When I worked for an institutional portrait studio, or when I shot weddings, I did have to touch many of the clients.  It's a "given" that when working for Olan Mills, or shooting a wedding in a formal setting, that a photographer should be dressed appropriately.  How a photographer is dressed when shooting models is not as important.  I'm a blue jeans and t-shirt kinda guy! 

In regards to touching anyone, I am all for the "Just ask" club!

R A V E N D R I V E wrote:
I'm sure there's a correlation to this reality. Business executives understand how important presentation is.

I encourage you and others to try it

Dude!  Maybe that works for you New Yorkers, but I'm in California where we're either at the beach or pool side!  The models are dropping their clothes and you expect us photographers in California to wear a suit at the beach while shooting bikinis?  You must be smoking something?