Tansy Blue wrote:

Really? Because if you're fiddling around with a tag that is necessarily in extremely close contact with my buttocks...

We're on different continents anyway, so we were never going to shoot even if had the same standards of behaviour.

1st, thanks for using a different term...I like buttocks, though very clinical, much better ;-) As far as the location goes, I see it as very silly, you mentioned a tag ( from a bathing suit was it ? ) being in close contact. That to me is like adjusting your necklace & you fear I'll touch your eyeball. If I grope your buttocks WHILE tucking a tag, you have a point, otherwise your arguement is like catching water in a basket.

Would it matter if I were gay ?? Or a woman ? What if I were a lesbian ? Just asking cause it seems to me you think it's a cheap thrill when in reality (us ) photogs are too focused just trying to get the shot !

Eliza C wrote:
Of course; many photographers of a certain age in the UK you can't blame them for misunderstandings that may arise. They were brought up with this very strong message from the UK's most famous 80s model:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WrVrlZ4 … re=related

Great video.  I got the message.     

Starr Images wrote:
1st, thanks for using a different term...I like buttocks, though very clinical, much better ;-) As far as the location goes, I see it as very silly, you mentioned a tag ( from a bathing suit was it ? ) being in close contact. That to me is like adjusting your necklace & you fear I'll touch your eyeball. If I grope your buttocks WHILE tucking a tag, you have a point, otherwise your arguement is like catching water in a basket.

Would it matter if I were gay ?? Or a woman ? What if I were a lesbian ? Just asking cause it seems to me you think it's a cheap thrill when in reality (us ) photogs are too focused just trying to get the shot !

You were the one who said that if a tag on the model's "panties" is sticking out, then you're going to tuck it in; apparently it's quicker than her "fumbling around".

I don't care about your gender or sexuality, and nowhere did I mention getting cheap thrills. (Straw man argument much?) I don't want people I don't know walking up to me and touching my underwear. Is that really so unreasonable?

Shiva Photo wrote:
" I will not tolerate HANDS ON PHOTOGRAPHERS " This appears in a recent model portfolio

Reluctance of a model to be touched by the photographer even for adjustment of a pose for best angle or lighting is counter productive to getting the best shots. Review of You tube videos and DVDS show that the best photographers in the field adjust the models face and body. It appears to be an accepted practice.

Models who are absolutely " touch me not"  must think twice about a serious career in modeling.

Photographers and Models opinions are welcome. A touchy subject no doubt.

No touchy touchy without permishy mishy.

Bare Essential Photos wrote:
I don't see any problem with this issue. I simply move on to another model as I do with models who have other issues that show signs of a drama queen.


Gabby

this!
But I try never to touch anybody anyway, and I ask for permission if I can't really avoid it. Most of the time I ask the MUA to do it for me

Artemis Bare wrote:
Don't touch me!!!

You don't know where I've been....

Yer nutz, ain't ya  .  .  .  I love it  .  .  .  ya beautiful wacko  .  .  . 

SOS

Tansy Blue wrote:

You were the one who said that if a tag on the model's "panties" is sticking out, then you're going to tuck it in; apparently it's quicker than her "fumbling around".

I don't care about your gender or sexuality, and nowhere did I mention getting cheap thrills. (Straw man argument much?) I don't want people I don't know walking up to me and touching my underwear. Is that really so unreasonable?

It's not that it's unreasonable, but in another circumstance...say you're in a bar and a guy you barely know does this without asking..but as others have posted already, if you're getting a haircut, being fitted for clothing, have a personal trainer, doing a music video ( as posted above ), actors/actresses,  the list goes on, you can expect to be touched...hell even in a subway in New York you'll be touched.

I suppose it comes down to this : Is photography by it's very nature one of the described instances where you can expect to be touched ? Some agree & some don't. I look at it as a creative/art form and the model is a canvas, if there's an issue with touching the canvas then I give up.

Eliza C wrote:
I always make sure I am armed appropriately for such incidents.
here is what happened to Grand National winning jockey Carl Llewellyn when he got out of hand!


NOBODY touches my AP pink tags !!!

Seriously though as Tansy says you just don't tuck labels in you just ask. But if you do try you will get a lashing.

Sichenze Photography wrote:
I shot a model up on a rock over the river.  I asked her if she wanted help getting down. She thanked me and said yes. She would have to have dropped down onto some smaller pointed not so stable rocks and while she would not fall into the river she could have hurt herself. We were both trying to make a good picture and it is also my responsibility to see that she does not get hurt.  I just asked permission first and she was thankful for it.  It was easy to lift her down actually as she weighed less than what I could lift so it was an easy transition.  Another time I was shooting a model who had a white dress on and it was kind of tight and she was changing to a blue one. She asked me to help her out of the dress so she did not get makeup on it.  I was happy to help.  I have touched models but always ask permission. It is usually because they can not do it themselves or it is much easier with help.  She dressed without my help but I just turned my back until she was done.

And that is appropriate but I try to avoid it if it is one to one by having a dresser (MUA, stylist, the photographer's escort or mine ) .

But yes of course sometimes it has to happen and in the case you describe that is fine. The only problem is when that happens and then suddenly a civilian appears and the model has her legs wrapped around the photographer's neck getting down from a tree. Catastrophe.

Starr Images wrote:
It's not that it's unreasonable, but in another circumstance...say you're in a bar and a guy you barely know does this without asking..but as others have posted already, if you're getting a haircut, being fitted for clothing, have a personal trainer, doing a music video ( as posted above ), actors/actresses,  the list goes on, you can expect to be touched...hell even in a subway in New York you'll be touched.

I suppose it comes down to this : Is photography by it's very nature one of the described instances where you can expect to be touched ? Some agree & some don't. I look at it as a creative/art form and the model is a canvas, if there's an issue with touching the canvas then I give up.

That guy in the bar is getting a smack. You're correct that the listed professions might be expected to touch their clients (although - personal trainer, really?), but the parameters of the touch are clearly defined and absolutely necessary in order to do the job (although - personal trainer? Seriously? I have no experience with them so I can't comment though). This is not necessary with photography. At all. I have done innumerable shoots in which the photographer did not touch me once. I've done a few shoots in which the photographer has occasionally asked to move an arm or piece of hair. I've also done a couple in which the photographer has started manipulating my body or clothing without asking. Only the latter produced sub-standard shots.

There is DEFINITELY an issue with touching the "canvas", because the canvas is a human being. It's incredibly easy to ask before touching; why not take two seconds to establish your model's comfort zones before possibly violating them?

This is an issue I've encountered in shoots with other models, which can be quite high contact. I make sure to ask before touching any part of the body for the first time (even if in pre-shoot comms we agreed on that level of touch). If we have a break and go back to shooting, I'll ask again. It's really easy and it means that no one feels violated or pressured. I'm quite concerned that you seem to have no issues with the possibility that a model might leave your shoot feeling that she was touched in a way she didn't like and didn't consent to.

Starr Images wrote:
It's not that it's unreasonable, but in another circumstance...say you're in a bar and a guy you barely know does this without asking..but as others have posted already, if you're getting a haircut, being fitted for clothing, have a personal trainer, doing a music video ( as posted above ), actors/actresses,  the list goes on, you can expect to be touched...hell even in a subway in New York you'll be touched.

I suppose it comes down to this : Is photography by it's very nature one of the described instances where you can expect to be touched ? Some agree & some don't. I look at it as a creative/art form and the model is a canvas, if there's an issue with touching the canvas then I give up.

Lisaliz wrote:

Sorree guys can't get the hang of this... just too traumatised by the thought of some man I don't know coming up to me in a club or bar and adjusting the label on my knickers NOOOOO!

Lisaliz wrote:

Sorree guys can't get the hang of this... just too traumatised by the thought of some man I don't know coming up to me in a club or bar and adjusting the label on my knickers NOOOOO!

Lisaliz wrote:
Sorree guys can't get the hang of this... just too traumatised by the thought of some man I don't know coming up to me in a club or bar and adjusting the label on my knickers NOOOOO!

Wow......   You just wear a panties to the club; that is HOTZ.  That must be a UK thing.  I probably would go one step further than the guys; I will grab your ass instead. 

Starr Images wrote:
if you're getting a haircut, being fitted for clothing, have a personal trainer, doing a music video ( as posted above ), actors/actresses,  the list goes on, you can expect to be touched....

The photographers team may consist of
Male wardrobe stylist
Male make up artist
Male Hair stylist
Male model

If the Model doesnt want to be touched than is she privileged and demand to have to have an all female crew?

Why is the photographer different from the four named above ?

Shiva Photo wrote:

The photographers team may consist of
Male wardrobe stylist
Male make up artist
Male Hair stylist
Male model

If the Model doesnt want to be touched than is she privileged and demand to have to have an all female crew?

Why is the photographer different from the four named above ?

Good question. Several models have stated that.  I really don't get why the title of the person who adjusts something matters.  At some shoots, the photographer and model fulfill most of those roles, sometimes overlapping duties.

descending chain wrote:
Seno Akta Gamat!

Never without my permission..

Hehe..

Collin J. Rae wrote:
I will touch you.

But there's a difference between good touch and bad touch.. Lol..

Image Unlimited wrote:
Throughout life, we meet people.  Some touch us, some don’t.  Lawful touch.  Whether we like it, or grow to like/understand/appreciate it is a different matter.

I came from  no-touch parents, but at 17 got involved with the UK National Trust., and people who were  huggy-kissy end of meetings.  .Aged 19, got involved with photography, and more huggy-kissy scenarios.  Aged 22, did a photo presentation to a group of West Indians in Derby., mostly comprised of hugging snd kissing middle-aged women.  A culture shock, sure; but a lovely experience.

In my thirties, I modelled as a bridegroom.  The then President of the Royal Photographic Society would sit on my knee, to show the ‘bride’ how to pose.

Fast forward..  Forget weddings and funerals; and photography.  My legal and political work in public inquiries, Parliament etc has meant touch – hugs and kisses – from politicians of all ages and genders, journalists, the occasional doctor etc. ,
Similar with models.  Particularly at the end of long, stressful, dran-out judgements.

Paradoxically, some models are clearly ‘no-touch’ but give you a big hug and kiss at the end.

I’m just bothered about getting the job done.  I generally shoot outdoors, and hold out an arm for the model to lift up/lift down on e.g. tree branches, irrespective of gender; as I might for a bride/couple.  Working quickly, I generally combine the model in situ with ‘I’m gonnna  move that hair’ and proceed to adjust the hair to get the shot.

Guess it depends what you want to achieve.  How will what you’re doing help this?

This is the last photo of me and my grandfather together.  He used to say – “Be nice to people – Give them a hug if you can  – You might be the last person they see.”

Different times….
That same holiday, he rescued a couple of drowning kids, and the adult who'd tried  to save them.  What a weirdo, touching them  without asking.

I think that has been acknowledged. But there are 'types' of touch. The lifeguard doesn't tuck labels in on panties; or have a lingering stroke, or that kind of thing.

For nearly two years I made most of my living being pulled about, with sometimes half a dozen pairs of hands on me at the same time at intimate spots. Such is the life of a fitting model and backstage in fashion shows you will get the stylist team some of whom may be male adding to the mix. But they have a reason to touch. A photographer generally does not. It is particularly unwelcome if it is one on one. Most completely understand that. There may be times that touch is required; but it isn't intimate or lingering.

It is like a horse or a dog or cat; if you have reason to touch them eg to put a bridle or lead on no problem. But if you fuss about with them inappropriately you will get kicked or bitten.

So I think just some common sense is required; but I imagine the model talked about in the OP has had the unfortunate experience of having a photographer who either didn't have much or was a bit pervy. And as I said, a lingering stroke of the arm can be unpleasant so it doesn't even have to be intimate.

But generally I think the model's 'no touch' thing is a bit extreme to say the least.
But those that touch 'our equipment' inappropriately I wonder how they would react if a model started touching his photography equipment because it was sticking out a bit Ha ha. Seriously though guys you must have had a woman come on to you touching inappropriately so you know when it has a function and when it doesn't. Well so do we!

Doug Lester wrote:
I frankly cannot imagine an adult woman, model or not, who does not know the differnce between being touched for an adjustment and being sexually gropped.

It isn't a question of being sexually groped it is a question of having a lingering creepy touch. Any adult male should know that too and don't act shocked when we can tell!

So I am happy to be lifted in and out of a tree and pushed up by my ass if necessary but try and hold hands with me and you will get a slap!

And if it is a whole wardrobe team we can get our lingerie pulled about corsets done up etc and even the photographer may get involved but on a one to one shoot that is not going to happen. You have to respect that there is a difference.

But yes a no touch rule at all is ridiculous.

In my experience; only once was anything out of order in this respect. Most times it is never an issue. But in that case; an 'innocent'  'can I help you in and out of your clothes?' quickly moved on to disgusting suggestions and 'casting couch' demands and finally the (high reputation fashion/celebrity) photographer  was charged with attempted rape with a girl later. UK mods know of the case and can bear me out.

sosdezign wrote:

Yer nutz, ain't ya  .  .  .  I love it  .  .  .  ya beautiful wacko  .  .  . 

SOS

Right back atcha you nut!

Augustine York wrote:
I can't recall a single time in modeling where someone had to put a hand on me to show me how to pose or to adjust a piece of clothing for me. Usually a quick "move your bra strap" or "to the left" or "look up" does the trick.

If a model is so inept at following direction, or a photographer is so inept at giving it, that the photographer needs to be physically touching the model to get her to move the way he wants her to... then someone is doing something wrong.

And yes, I know there are some exceptions where someone is in such a complicated pose they can't even reach their own panties to adjust them, but seriously, how often do those scenarios happen?

All the time, actually, which is why it's nice to have a hands on stylist or MUA on set. 

The worst is hair, it constantly needs to be adjusted while the model holds a pose, the rest is clothing.  The model gets into position and her shirt wrinkles under a jacket.  She can't fix that herself becuase as soon as she does, she'll cause a problem elsewhere.

I have no hesitation about adjusting a model or an item of clothing, and have never had a model even mention it.  Probably because I'm so annoyed by having to do it.

I shot a friend of mine recently, a man, who I was constantly walking over and adjusting.  Yes, I could have told him what to do, but they never really do exactly what needs to be done, so then you waste 10 minutes going back and forth to get a collar to sit right with the rest of the shirt looking right, when in a minute, I could just go over and fix it myself so it's exactly how I want it.

Artemis Bare wrote:
Don't touch me!!!

You don't know where I've been....

HAHAHAHA

Abbitt Photography wrote:

I knew I should have stayed a craigslist photographer instead of being a photographer off of model mayhem.

eh, sometimes they're one in the same

Doug Lester wrote:
I frankly cannot imagine an adult woman, model or not, who does not know the differnce between being touched for an adjustment and being sexually gropped.

Actually that's one of the reasons I touch models very little, even when it's easier.   Some people's attitudes about what constitutes inappropriate touch or harassment has reached the point of absurdity.

Image Unlimited wrote:
Throughout life, we meet people.  Some touch us, some don’t.  Lawful touch.  Whether we like it, or grow to like/understand/appreciate it is a different matter.

I came from  no-touch parents, but at 17 got involved with the UK National Trust., and people who were  huggy-kissy end of meetings.  .Aged 19, got involved with photography, and more huggy-kissy scenarios.  Aged 22, did a photo presentation to a group of West Indians in Derby., mostly comprised of hugging snd kissing middle-aged women.  A culture shock, sure; but a lovely experience.

In my thirties, I modelled as a bridegroom.  The then President of the Royal Photographic Society would sit on my knee, to show the ‘bride’ how to pose.

Fast forward..  Forget weddings and funerals; and photography.  My legal and political work in public inquiries, Parliament etc has meant touch – hugs and kisses – from politicians of all ages and genders, journalists, the occasional doctor etc. ,
Similar with models.  Particularly at the end of long, stressful, dran-out judgements.

Paradoxically, some models are clearly ‘no-touch’ but give you a big hug and kiss at the end.

I’m just bothered about getting the job done.  I generally shoot outdoors, and hold out an arm for the model to lift up/lift down on e.g. tree branches, irrespective of gender; as I might for a bride/couple.  Working quickly, I generally combine the model in situ with ‘I’m gonnna  move that hair’ and proceed to adjust the hair to get the shot.

Guess it depends what you want to achieve.  How will what you’re doing help this?

This is the last photo of me and my grandfather together.  He used to say – “Be nice to people – Give them a hug if you can  – You might be the last person they see.”

Different times….
That same holiday, he rescued a couple of drowning kids, and the adult who'd tried  to save them.  What a weirdo, touching them  without asking.

+1

Maybe some models think they are so special that us "men" always want to touch them. C'mon if you are so sensitive to being touched get a career change and work in a manufacturing plant as an engineer...nobody will touch you there.

New Age Studio wrote:
+1

Maybe some models think they are so special that us "men" always want to touch them. C'mon if you are so sensitive to being touched get a career change and work in a manufacturing plant as an engineer...nobody will touch you there.

They wouldn't dare ask or try to make excuses to!
I have worked in many an all male environment with the military in a professional capacity (logistics) and been a pin up girl to members of an elite regiment. They call me ma'm and wouldn't dream of touching!

It isn't a question of being 'special'. Everyobody has the right to their defensible space and some people don't respect it. If you have a legit reason to be in it that is fine; or touching intimate places for that matter. As I said if I need help getting up a tree for a shoot you may have to grab my ass but that is ok. Trying to hold my hand or asking to help in and out of clothes for the thrill of it isn't.

Most photographers understand; as I said only once have I had a problem. But nearly all photographers will touch you at some point but for genuine reason eg wiping a lipstick smudge if the MUA isn't around; or giving a leg up somewhere. Goes without saying that is ok. But I do know some girls have had incidenst like photographers trying to hold hands with them. Which isn't really bad but it isn't welcome. It is difficult sometimes to know the boundaries when you work together well creatively and some touch happens as I describe. But for a model to post that on her port either she has had a bad experience ; or she hasn't much clue about modelling. Wouldn't make much of a fitting/fashion model would she? Hands all over us constantly female mostly but sometimes male. For a reason.

New Age Studio wrote:

+1

Maybe some models think they are so special that us "men" always want to touch them. C'mon if you are so sensitive to being touched get a career change and work in a manufacturing plant as an engineer...nobody will touch you there.

Um.. I'm a veteran, when I was still active I had men touch me inappropriately on the job..

You underestimate men, it seems..

Eliza C wrote:

They wouldn't dare ask or try to make excuses to!
I have worked in many an all male environment with the military in a professional capacity (logistics) and been a pin up girl to members of an elite regiment. They call me ma'm and wouldn't dream of touching!

It isn't a question of being 'special'. Everyobody has the right to their defensible space and some people don't respect it. If you have a legit reason to be in it that is fine; or touching intimate places for that matter. As I said if I need help getting up a tree for a shoot you may have to grab my ass but that is ok. Trying to hold my hand or asking to help in and out of clothes for the thrill of it isn't.

Most photographers understand; as I said only once have I had a problem. But nearly all photographers will touch you at some point but for genuine reason eg wiping a lipstick smudge if the MUA isn't around; or giving a leg up somewhere. Goes without saying that is ok. But I do know some girls have had incidenst like photographers trying to hold hands with them. Which isn't really bad but it isn't welcome. It is difficult sometimes to know the boundaries when you work together well creatively and some touch happens as I describe. But for a model to post that on her port either she has had a bad experience ; or she hasn't much clue about modelling. Wouldn't make much of a fitting/fashion model would she? Hands all over us constantly female mostly but sometimes male. For a reason.

This as well..